kasskaboose1. Is 70% alcohol more effective than the 90%?
2. For those w/ finished rooms, is there an RP for how often to clean the tracks or loco wheels?
Much depends on both the amount and the type of schmutz in the 'ambient environment'. Clean air is an advantage, but many layouts are in places where dust blows in when doors are opened and closed.
3. Should I use a rag over a paper towel to clean the tracks?
A quick comment about the Bright Boy: if you use it with enough pressure to work as desired, you're very likely to score or gouge the rail surface longitudinally. These gouges can be easily dressed out... but you have to take the time and effort to dress them out. Normal running won't tend to level these down or burnish them out, but they make nifty channels to accumulate contaminants, and sites to start micro-arcing.
Incidentally I would never consider using something as abrasive as a Bright Boy on metal dry. The original post seems to be pitting (no pun intended) use of abrasive block against use of alcohol. In my opinion you use the block wet and then carefully use a rag, paper towel, etc. to remove both the dirt and any removed metal together...
See the discussions involving lapping film for one reasonably simple and good approach to proper railhead 'prep'. The Bright Boy is a fine first step, or stage, in this.
kasskaboose I wish to avoid that food fight here pls.
I wish to avoid that food fight here pls.
Rich
Alton Junction
OK, 70% isopropyl alcohol versus BriteBoy. I don't use one to the exclusion of the other. Generally, I use 70% isopropyl alcohol on a white cotton cloth. I never use it on a paper towel. I do use a BriteBoy first in spots where there is a build up of black crud. Yeah, I know, there is a lot of discussion how BriteBoy is too abrasive. I have never found that to be a problem. Also, I sometimes use denatured alcohol instead of isopropyl alcohol on particularly troublesome sections of track.
When I find a need to clean loco wheels, the gears keep the loco wheels from turning freely. So, I use alcohol on a piece of cotton cloth and running the loco wheels over the alcohol soaked cloth. Works like a charm!
kasskaboose2. For those w/ finished rooms, is there an RP for how often to clean the tracks or loco wheels?
I have only had two layouts in dedicated finished rooms.
The "Dream House" layout was in N scale, and it operated frequently. Track cleaning was only neccessary in areas where there was layout construction.
Most trains were powered by three or four Kato locomotives, so I believe any dirty track was overcome by all those excellent motorized units forcing their way through.
My HO scale "Spare Bedroom" layout where trains were only powered by a single locomotive needed more attention to the track. Also, this layout was smaller, so construction anywhere in the room got the whole layout dirty.
Layouts that shared the Master Bedroom or Dining Room always had dirty track!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
All I’ve done for 20 years is run my CMX track cleaning car around my layout once or so a month using ACT-6006 cleaning fluid and never have any problems.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
To this day, I still don't know what that black gunk is or what causes the black gunk on the rails and on wheels. It reminds me of gum on a sidewalk. Some say that it is caused by arcing. Others say that it is dust that combines with natural body oils.
Whatever it is, and whatever causes it, it is a pain to remove.
I never use a Brightboy.
When I clean track, I usually use a paper towel, either plain or alcohol soaked.
I've experimented with wrapping an alcohol soaked coffee filter around a wood block, but not done it enough to have an opinion. I chose the filter material as it seemed like it would shed a lot less than a paper towel.
I believe that the less dust in a room, the less dust on the track. So I try to keep the floor vacuumed (which is smooth wood, NOT carpet). There is a real ceiling above, so "stuff" filtering down from upstairs isn't a problem.
Smoking in the train room is contra-indicated, as the exhaust will coat everything in sticky goo, which doesn't like to let go of dust.
Ed
7j43kI've experimented with wrapping an alcohol soaked coffee filter around a wood block, but not done it enough to have an opinion. I chose the filter material as it seemed like it would shed a lot less than a paper towel.
The coffee filter should work very well. These have proven handy for all kinds of things beyond filtering coffee, but I have never used one on track. I am interested to hear how this works out.
richhotrain kasskaboose I wish to avoid that food fight here pls. LOL. I guarantee you, a food fight on this topic is inevitable. Rich
LOL. I guarantee you, a food fight on this topic is inevitable.
I didn't know there was contention between the 70 percenters and the 91 percenters, but I always enjoy a good food fight between the DCers and DCCers or the HO guys (forum word cops won't let me write HO ers) and the N Scalers.
But seriously though . . . I tear up old cotton T-shirts as rags; the older they are, the softer and fatter the cotton threads become. Then roll the rag into a tight ball about 1" in diameter. A ball that size contacts the upper and inner quadrant surfaces of my DCC-controlled N Scale track. Then soak the ball with 91% isopropyl alcohol (highest number wins) and rub every inch of track I can reach, turning the ball constantly to avoid the dark streaks and skid marks. I do this fairly often whenever it seems like I haven't done it in a while. Kinda like flossing my teeth. For inaccessible areas, I rely on the CMX car dribbling and wiping the rails with the same aforementioned 91% stuff.
In general, I take a multi-pronged approach: 1) wet rag ball wiping, 2) CMX tank car semi-automatic wet wiping, 3) Centerline car wet- and dry- and rubbery-drum-abrasive wiping, 4) floating-gleaming-weighted masonite pad, and 5) polished agate cabochon burnishing similar to the masonite pad thing.
And 6) and 7) . . . Bright Boy and/or 1200-grit sandpaper dry abrasive scour . . . let the Apple Brown Betty fly.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
The wood block may not have enough compliance to let the filter absorb in the 'pressure' area; you'll want to back it with at least one layer of something soft and absorbent: rag, paper towel, even cotton batting. Remember that there is stuff that builds up on the face of the cleaning pad, and also stuff that wicks up and away from the surface before the solvent evaporates and leaves a film. Anyone who has had to clean chrome or polished stainless understands how important both actions are.
Smoking of course is a nameless no-no anywhere near precise anything. But of even greater importance is avoiding cooking or food vapors. It is astounding to see what builds up from even a little casual frying in the morning, over time -- and how far from the kitchen the effects go.
My father and I were delighted to learn the actual technique for pan-blackening fish in a cast-iron skillet (which involves the Leidenfrost effect and is actually levitated superheated-steam cooking more than 'pan frying'). We happily heated up those pans and fried those fillets and reveled in the steam blowing out... until we started changing picture arrangements in the living room, 300 feet away behind 3 sets of sliding-panel or French doors, and discovered our Williamsburg Palace Ballroom Blue walls were... no longer the color they were. Who'da thunk it?
And typical kitchen hood arrangements actually exhaust or capture far less of the schmutz than 'expected' in many cases...
The only time I have to "clean" track, in the conventional sense of the word, is after ballasting or adding scenic effects in close proximity to the tracks. For that, I use a mildly abrasive block which was originally intended for cleaning the distributor points in older vehicles. It's also useful for cleaning electrical contacts in larger electrical pumps (not model railroading stuff, although I suppose it would work there, too).
For maintenance cleaning of the track, I use a suitable attachment on my Shop Vac, either the brush, or the crevasse tool.As for cleaning wheels, only my older locos with brass wheels require cleaning, and those are dwindling.
If I were to use alcohol for track cleaning, I'd use the 99% stuff that's readily available here in Canada - all of the lower-concentration alcohols are diluted with water.
Wayne
I use the 99% alcohol here, down in the US. I seriously doubt there's any practical difference with 90%. Maybe with 70%.
I purchased 99% for use as a film cleaner. I believe the less water on film, the better.
Lastspikemike Since the black gunk accumulates whether you run trains or not, and I've even found it on ME turnouts in factory sealed packages, I conclude it 's nickel silver corrosion from the atmosphere. The black is an oxide. Water is useless to clean rails and possibly contributes to corrosion. Various solvents would work and isopropyl alcohol is certainly one of them. No point using 70% diluted if you can get 99%. Best results I've obtained is when using ACT 3753 track cleaner fluid. It reduces friction markedly until it completely dries. Cleans beautifully though.
Since the black gunk accumulates whether you run trains or not, and I've even found it on ME turnouts in factory sealed packages, I conclude it 's nickel silver corrosion from the atmosphere. The black is an oxide.
Water is useless to clean rails and possibly contributes to corrosion.
Various solvents would work and isopropyl alcohol is certainly one of them. No point using 70% diluted if you can get 99%.
Best results I've obtained is when using ACT 3753 track cleaner fluid. It reduces friction markedly until it completely dries. Cleans beautifully though.
Thanks for the informative comments everyone! Your answers help many in figuring out what way to clean track effectively and what causes track gunk. Given that it appears regardless of what happens, does running trains daily clean the track better than using a Brite Boy or rubbing alcohol?
Thanks!
My take...
Using an abrasive helps today, but the scoring of the rails, for some, raises concerns about junk accumulation, thus my jump to "gleaming" the rails.
I bought into the "gleaming" approach as part of a "system" (which invests some significant one-time initial effort), combined with running a CMX car rather occasionally (if DCC sound hiccups arise) with denatured alcohol or, most recommended, lacquer thinner, running a John Allen masonite car regularly in freights (has anyone done it with a passenger car?), maximizing metal wheelsets on rolling stock (to minimize gunk pickup and re-distribution), and running trains at least occasionally.
My experience has been very good with the above, though in a climate controlled home. I have a small layout but usually run freights with multiple locos, which may help with any minor continuity issues since only one loco is affected (DCC sound hiccups) at a time.
There are many(!) opinions and variations, so no "right", established answer. This is not "settled science". Next you get into what rail conditioners might best help, which I have not considered exploring. From what I read, DCC with sound is more sensitive to continuity issues than straight DC, so...
The OP might enjoy perusing former threads via a search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A+cs.trains.com+clean+track&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS938US939&oq=site%3A+cs.trains.com+clean+track&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.16699j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
kasskaboose ...does running trains daily clean the track better than using a Brite Boy or rubbing alcohol? Thanks!
...does running trains daily clean the track better than using a Brite Boy or rubbing alcohol?
Nobody has done such an experiment, as far as I know. IF someone has, I REALLY want to hear about it.
Since there appear to have been no such experiments, that implies there is no answer.
The OP is encouraged to conduct such experiments.
OP. Can we count on you to do this? I, as likely many others, will be happy to give advice on protocol.
Go for it!!!
kasskaboose Thanks for the informative comments everyone! Your answers help many in figuring out what way to clean track effectively and what causes track gunk. Given that it appears regardless of what happens, does running trains daily clean the track better than using a Brite Boy or rubbing alcohol? Thanks!
Simon
Great idea Simon! I can see the value in adding alcohol directly to the tracks. Much easier cleaning the tracks than loco wheels.
Surface oxidation can occur with or without current. But is is greatly accelerated by the 35,000-degree plasma around tiny but repeated conduction sparks from micro-arcing, which also puts tiny pits in the rail surface that preferentially hold contaminants. Or so goes the theory. Elements of it make good sense.
A good metallurgical analysis of this would go hand-in-hand with practical analysis of what is necessary vs. optional vs. overkill in gleaming.
Forum rules prohibit links to other model railroading sites, so let me paraphrase something that I read.
A sample of the black gunk was submitted to a metallurgist for analysis. His conclusion was that the black crud is near 100% pure nickel oxide. It is the natural oxidation of the nickel in the silver nickel plating on the track. It is deposited in such a manner as to suggest it was formed during an electrical arc.
richhotrain A sample of the black gunk was submitted to a metallurgist for analysis. His conclusion was that the black crud is near 100% pure nickel oxide. It is the natural oxidation of the nickel in the silver nickel plating on the track. It is deposited in such a manner as to suggest it was formed during an electrical arc. Rich
Very interesting. Since nickel-silver is typically 60% copper and 20% nickel and 20% zinc, I am surprised that there was no copper oxide found. Unless, of course, the supplying metal was all nickel, like nickel plating. From wheels.
richhotrain To this day, I still don't know what that black gunk is or what causes the black gunk on the rails and on wheels. It reminds me of gum on a sidewalk. Some say that it is caused by arcing. Others say that it is dust that combines with natural body oils. Whatever it is, and whatever causes it, it is a pain to remove. Rich
Some years ago, the conventional wisdom was that the black gunk was residue from plastic wheels that collected on metal engine wheels. However, I have subway trains with all metal wheels, and no freight cars or other plastic wheels ever run on the subway tracks. Still, I know it's time to clean track when the subways start stalling.
I still don't understand the problem. But, since the subway tunnels are difficult or impossible to clean by hand, I have a CMX machine that I use with lacquer thinner as a solvent. It takes care of the gunk, and I seldom if ever have to clean wheels.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
LastspikemikeZinc is preferentially corroded in an alloy with copper which is why zincs are attached to steel ships with bronze propellers
And of course anyone who's wanted to be a lifeguard knows what's in that stuff on their nose...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRJ6jQfap0
One source says the nickel silver alloy corrodes due to the presence of sulfur in the air.
Overmod Note that no one is saying the black gunk contains a zinc compound, which may be because I don't think the alloy commonly used for drawing model rail contains any.
Here's a discussion about nickel-silver:
https://buntyllc.com/nickel-silver-alloys/
When there is no zinc in nickel-silver, it's not called nickel-silver anymore. It's cupronickel.
My suspicion is that this research document is horse exhaust.
7j43k richhotrain A sample of the black gunk was submitted to a metallurgist for analysis. His conclusion was that the black crud is near 100% pure nickel oxide. It is the natural oxidation of the nickel in the silver nickel plating on the track. It is deposited in such a manner as to suggest it was formed during an electrical arc. Rich Very interesting. Since nickel-silver is typically 60% copper and 20% nickel and 20% zinc, I am surprised that there was no copper oxide found. Unless, of course, the supplying metal was all nickel, like nickel plating. From wheels. Ed
There's a sort of semantic problem here. The 'nickel silver' alloy containing zinc was commonly known as "German silver" (as in the early days of silver electroplating, where this alloy was found to be an ideal substrate). The use of the name 'nickel silver' for cupronickel rail in model railroading is now of great age and common acceptance, to the point I think that it has long replaced any other term in this hobby.
The point Ed raises is an interesting one. If there is a spark that pits the rail, the other end of that spark has to be considered, too. There is a whole lot more linear distance to be "pitted" in rail than there is in a nickel-plated wheel, and a limited number of wheels sharing the electrical pickup. The question I'd ask is whether the polarity of electricity at the point of wheel arcing is related to formation of the black gunk ... is it preferential transfer from nickel wheeltread, not out of the cupronickel alloy, and can that account for the absence of copper (or copper oxide) in the analytical results of the gunk.
There is, of course, such a thing as corrosion of alloy elements -- it's already been mentioned in this thread, with respect to certain bronzes in salt water. Anyone who is familiar with SCC will know some of the mechanisms. I can still remember being astonished to see how easy it was to get 18/8 stainless utensils to rust. Certainly drawn nickel-silver rail can be observed to develop schmutz in storage, or when cats get at it, and this stuff (and its method of formation, and hence optimal methods of cleaning the crud or preventing its formation) could be chemically analyzed if someone cared to do the work with scientific standards.
I would be interested where the black crud appears on the track on others' layouts.
On my layout, I usually see it on the outside rail of a curve. I don't know if I have ever seen black crud on straight sections of track except adjacent to turnouts.
The reason for my last post was that Ed wondered why no copper oxide was found in the crud. Back in 2017 in his post, he speculated that the presence of nickel inhibits formation of copper oxide.
I'm no chemist or metallurgist, so I cannot explain the presence of one form of oxide to the exclusion of other forms of oxide (copper or zinc).