Hi All,
I'm still relatively new so I apologize if it's the wrong thing to do to make a new post for this, but I'm doing it for several reasons. I've seen threads that go for years and many pages, but I find it hard to locate specific information in those long threads, and I got so much good feedback to my first two "track plan" posts that I really want to be able to return to and harvest some of it later, and so I don't want those posts to get overbig. Also, the first post about my layout involved a totally different track plan from what I have now.
I've already posted it at least once for other issues, but for the record, here's the latest paper track plan of the Priest River & Western.
And even this latest is already slightly obsolete. For one thing, I encroached southward a few inches to make sure I'd have room for that 24" mainline (red-orange) curve coming into the yard from the west, and found that combined with slightly overhanging the plywood subroadbed over the angled bottom stringer, I was able to get a fourth yard track in there, which is great. On the other hand, the unavailability of curved code 83 turnouts with a 24" outside radius is a snag that has caused me to have to rework several areas of the layout, as discussed in another thread. Not happy about that, but as the French say, tant pis. Some people don't get to have model railroads at all.
Here's the progress so far. Pardon the clutter.
I'm a little embarrassed to show this, because y'all have such professional-looking, presentable layouts, but I'm not going to apologize. Accompanying me on this outing is voluntary. My skill level, budget, and available space are real limitations I've accepted.
To work, then. Here you can see I've tacked down the mainline loop in cork roadbed. I don't really know why I tacked it first, except that I wanted to see if I had enough cork and that the principle was sound, that I wasn't crazy. Now I'll have to untack each piece, glue it down, and tack it again while it dries.
The branch (purple), the siding (blue), and the yard (blue -- goes lower left in this view) and interior spurs (green) will built later. First order is to get the mainline rails down so I can run some trains.
Yes, I sanded my cork. Thanks for the clue.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Hey, no need for apologies, the track plan looks good and the photo of the framework looks good, you are off to a great start. Keep us posted on your progress.
Rich
Alton Junction
crossthedog Here you can see I've tacked down the mainline loop in cork roadbed. I don't really know why I tacked it first, except that I wanted to see if I had enough cork and that the principle was sound, that I wasn't crazy. Now I'll have to untack each piece, glue it down, and tack it again while it dries.
Here you can see I've tacked down the mainline loop in cork roadbed. I don't really know why I tacked it first, except that I wanted to see if I had enough cork and that the principle was sound, that I wasn't crazy. Now I'll have to untack each piece, glue it down, and tack it again while it dries.
Great progress!
Now that you can get past the shelves, you'll probably find that you can reach all areas of the track and might not need the access.
Too bad about the curved turnout unavailablity.
Nice to see the yard going to the wall. I think that will look nice if it will fit.
Some of the turnouts on the plan seem to have angles that are too sharp. Its something you'll need to flesh out as you build the layout. Plan and test, test, test.
Edit: Since the orange line and the corked curve is a 24 inch radius? You want the Walthers 28/24 curved turnout that has the 24 INSIDE radius to start the yard, no?
They are becoming available and should be in stock soon.
- Douglas
DoughlessSome of the turnouts on the plan seem to have angles that are too sharp. Its something you'll need to flesh out as you build the layout. Plan and test, test, test. Edit: Since the orange line and the corked curve is a 24 inch radius? You want the Walthers 28/24 curved turnout that has the 24 INSIDE radius to start the yard, no?
Douglas, which turnouts do you think are too sharp? I want to pay attention to that.
You're right that the corked curve in the photo corresponds to the orange mainline curve and that curve is 24" radius, but the turnout into the yard FROM THE MAINLINE is higher up, on the straight section, not on the curve. Where I need the 24" outside radius curved turnout(s) is further down the yard lead in the bottom right corner. I need the radius on that cornermost blue curve to remain at 24" so I can back a passenger train down in there on the outside of the yard. So that's where I need the curved turnout. The plan shows two turnouts from the lead, but one of them is not quite in the curve, so it was not very accurately drawn. And since I'm having to use a turnout with a 30" outside radius anyway, the lead into the yard is pretty messed up and I'm not sure two curved turnouts will fit there anymore. I'm glad I made the plan but I'm sort of feeling my way now.
TrackFiddler, I'm really glad you posted that second photo, the one that shows how you laid the cork for your switch ladder. I happen to have been wondering exactly how you work the cork in turnouts, and your image shows it clearly.
Rich, thanks for the encouragement.
I thought the green turnouts looked sharp.
Matt,
The newest version of the plan is looking good! Since the track plan would flow really nicely with the turnouts you have in mind, if there are no commercial ones have you considered building your own? I was mortified by the idea when I built my first donut layout seven or so years ago, but because of the tight space I felt it was the best way to keep a sense of flow in the trackwork. I downloaded the PDF templates from FastTracks and bought code 83 rail, PC board ties, an NMRA gauge, two three-point track gauges, and a bunch of 3/32" basswood-- those plus my soldering iron and supplies were all I needed, and there were enough templates of different sizes on the site that I could easily find the right size.
It turned out to not be as difficult or costly as I thought, doing it this way without an official template (I printed out the PDFs and used basswood to make jigs to hold the PC board ties in place while building the turnout.) I made ten for that first layout, cutting my teeth on one that turned out pretty poor-- the rest were great once I found my bearings after that. The four standard #5s got re-used on my current layout, but there were some custom-size ones that also worked great, including a #10 curved turnout (don't remember the radii):
And a curved #7 and straight #6 built with a common stock rail:
Just some food for thought.
Phil
pt714Since the track plan would flow really nicely with the turnouts you have in mind, if there are no commercial ones have you considered building your own?
Edit: And here's a question. Why use PC board for ties? Why not wood ties? Is there something about conduction going on here? I don't even really know what PC board is, unless it's the medium that they cut computer mother boards into. Really, is it that? I saw one video where a guy bought a ton of it on eBay (was that you?) and at that point I said, this is over my head.
Heh, it's been a while since I made the ones I've got, though I'm sure I could get back into the swing of it with a little practice. If you're in WA I'm pretty well far away, on the East Coast (though I was raised in the PNW, and love that part of the country.)
crossthedog Why use PC board for ties? Why not wood ties? Is there something about conduction going on here? I don't even really know what PC board is, unless it's the medium that they cut computer mother boards into. Really, is it that? I saw one video where a guy bought a ton of it on eBay (was that you?) and at that point I said, this is over my head.
Why use PC board for ties? Why not wood ties? Is there something about conduction going on here? I don't even really know what PC board is, unless it's the medium that they cut computer mother boards into. Really, is it that? I saw one video where a guy bought a ton of it on eBay (was that you?) and at that point I said, this is over my head.
You don't need many! PC board ties (which, yes, are made of the same plated stuff used to make circuit boards) unlike wood ties can be soldered directly to the rails, which allows you to use them to give the turnout structure as you build it and keep everything in gauge-- not all the ties are PC board, only a select few. Those ties are positioned to provide a more rigid structure at the points, frog, and wing/guard rails, where tolerances matter quite a bit. They're gapped (to provide electrical isolation between the two sides), then soldered to the rails.
pt714I'm sure I could get back into the swing of it with a little practice. If you're in WA I'm pretty well far away, on the East Coast
Or, as you suggest, I could try my hand.
crossthedogOr, as you suggest, I could try my hand.
Hi Matt,
I'm sure that you have heard the old saying, something to the effect that "...if you think you can, or if you think you can't, your right...."
The fancy jigs for filing point rails etc. make the job easy, but thousands of turnouts were built by hand before the jigs came along. Premade frogs are available from several sources.
Just sayin',
Dave
P.S. The layout is looking good!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Nice progress!
I like your bridge. Would you mind telling me about your girders - purchased ready made or scrathch built; how you attached the girders; and are they straight or curved? If curved, how did you curve them?
Will enjoy watching your progress.
DEW
Because I know you guys have been lying awake nights waiting for word on how it's going, I am happy to announce that I have wired several of the key power blocks on my layout to switch between two DC throttles, so I can run a train on the mainline and one in the yard (eventually also the branch). And I have even done extra credit so that I can run the whole layout as DCC. The good news is... it works. Today for the first time I ran two trains simultaneously.
To see the below image at full resolution, click on it once, then close it. Then click on it again.
This photo makes the layout look small, but it's 10 feet long on the side with the blue control panel and 8 feet wide. Pardon the mess. I have to work in quick spurts so I leave all my tools all over. The yard (far left) isn't finished, but I have several yard tracks tacked down, and one of them is isolated as its own block. The siding is in on the top curve (at far right), and it drops lower than the mainline, which I like. The branch isn't built yet. I won't start that until after I get the yard done.
The control panel shows the 10 eventual blocks. DPDT switches pass control to either of the two DC throttles, one of which (Throttle A) is sitting on the near corner to the left of the panel and the other (Throttle B) is to the right, tucked under the layout above the file cabinet. All center off, so I can park engines if necessary.
The black square in the control panel is the NCE DCC Power Cab plug-in. I can throw that other little DPDT to give control of all the A switch positions to the NCE cab instead of the DC throttle. I never plug in the DCC booster until I have unplugged the DC packs.
I am needless to say exceedingly proud of myself, since I came into this forum with not a farthing's worth of electrical acumen. Thanks to many of you here I am well on my way to having built my first truly operational layout. I am very grateful to all of you. I don't think I value MR magazine very much, but the price of subscription has been many times repaid by my having access to your experience and good nature. Thanks all.
Here is a shot from last week before all the wires were in -- it's much busier now back behind here. The control panel folds forward on hinges, with a chain stop, and it locks at the top with a deadbolt that you can see on the upper right back corner of the wood frame -- out of the way but easy to reach and engage/disengage with one hand.
The layout is coming along nicely. The control panel is great!
Hi. I don't mean to take alway from this great thread. But, but I'm writing about the photo of the bridge Track Fiddler ("TF") posted.
I like this bridge. I think his experience might help others - like me. TF, would you mind telling us about your girders - purchased ready made or scratch built; how you attached the girders; and are they straight or curved? If curved, how did you curve them?
Thanks and sorry for any inconvenience this communication may cause.
dew3896
Edited
dew3896sorry for any inconvenience this communication may cause.
@Dave, thanks for sayin'.
While everyone has been over on the "expensive hobby" post, I thought I'd post about progress on the Priest River and Western. I'm using this old thread because I've seen some members (gently) rebuked for starting new threads when old ones will suffice.
So I notice above that the last time I posted photos I had not yet even built the branch line. Well the tracks for the branch up the mountain to Priest River have been in place for quite a while. Getting that grade to be smooth was a real challenge. No derailment issues and most of my locos can pull a half dozen cars up it without slipping. (For full res, click open picture, close, then click open again).
Here is what it looked like when I placed the first tentative boards "beyond the bridge", where the upper town will be, and laid out some trial curves on them. I would never design a layout this way again. Too much curved track makes it difficult to put any industry anywhere, and coupling cars is harder on curves, too. I'm very glad that I did not go with the first plan I made, which was all curves and loops. This plan is cramped and stingy, but at least I have some operations and a few straight spurs for a small factory or two.
Here's where I am right now:
The other major problem with this design is access to the middle. I've left the middle of three wedges of plywood out in the town site so that I can pop up in there to do work. I'm skinny, but it's still tight. There will be no track on that access piece, and it will be removable even after there are buildings on it. I haven't figured out how best to do that, yet. Nor have I figured out where precisely the town's buildings and streets will be. My initial goal was to have a fairly urban setting where trains rolled right across main street and interrupted traffic, shaking the soup bowls of diners at the corner cafe. I still hope to do some of this but there's not as much room in the town as I'd imagined. But the tracks had to go where the tracks had to go. I tried not to do too much up here. A mixed local will drop a baggage/pax combo at the station on one of the far left tracks, the loco will escape on the other, and switch out maybe two or three out of four or five industries up there.
The trailing point spur bottom right in the second photo is for advanced players. Pulling a car off that track and then getting the engine on the other side of it for the trip back down the mountain can be done, but it's a challenge, especially if the goal is to leave the combine in place for passenger boarding. I've had loads of fun operating these tracks already, even before I had them nailed down.
I took a page from Kevin's playbook and installed all the switch machines (with wires already soldered on the tabs) on the undersides of these town sections while the sections were off the layout, and the sections are fastened down with bolts and wingnuts so that I can remove each one if I've forgotten something, which I'm sure I have. Boundaries between boards are crossed by short segments of track that come up fairly easily.
So the layout now has everything I wanted -- all the dealbreakers. Continuous loop, a small yard, more than one level, a bridge crossing over top of another bridge (or nearly), a tunnel, a siding, and potential for switching operations. All in a little more space than that of a parked car.
More soon.
Thanks for coming along.
crossthedog While everyone has been over on the "expensive hobby" post,
While everyone has been over on the "expensive hobby" post,
crossthedog I'm using this old thread because I've seen some members (gently) rebuked for starting new threads when old ones will suffice.
I'm using this old thread because I've seen some members (gently) rebuked for starting new threads when old ones will suffice.
crossthedog So the layout now has everything I wanted -- all the dealbreakers. Continuous loop, a small yard, more than one level, a bridge crossing over top of another bridge (or nearly), a tunnel, a siding, and potential for switching operations. All in a little more space than that of a parked car. More soon. Thanks for coming along. -Matt
Thanks Rich. I appreciate the encouragement.
Your progress is impressive... nice build thread.
Could I invite you to post updates over in Weekend Photo Fun?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190Could I invite you to post updates over in Weekend Photo Fun?
crossthedogWhat, like the update I just posted, or do you mean next time I have something share-worthy?
Either one, anything, something else, it makes no difference. Weekend Photo Fun is simply a friendly place to share pictures of anything model railroading related.
Common shares are layout updates, new purchases, completed projects, works in progress, old pictures, and so on.
crossthedog While everyone has been over on the "expensive hobby" post, I thought I'd post about progress on the Priest River and Western. I'm using this old thread because I've seen some members (gently) rebuked for starting new threads when old ones will suffice. So I notice above that the last time I posted photos I had not yet even built the branch line. Well the tracks for the branch up the mountain to Priest River have been in place for quite a while. Getting that grade to be smooth was a real challenge. No derailment issues and most of my locos can pull a half dozen cars up it without slipping. (For full res, click open picture, close, then click open again). Here is what it looked like when I placed the first tentative boards "beyond the bridge", where the upper town will be, and laid out some trial curves on them. I would never design a layout this way again. Too much curved track makes it difficult to put any industry anywhere, and coupling cars is harder on curves, too. I'm very glad that I did not go with the first plan I made, which was all curves and loops. This plan is cramped and stingy, but at least I have some operations and a few straight spurs for a small factory or two. Here's where I am right now: The other major problem with this design is access to the middle. I've left the middle of three wedges of plywood out in the town site so that I can pop up in there to do work. I'm skinny, but it's still tight. There will be no track on that access piece, and it will be removable even after there are buildings on it. I haven't figured out how best to do that, yet. Nor have I figured out where precisely the town's buildings and streets will be. My initial goal was to have a fairly urban setting where trains rolled right across main street and interrupted traffic, shaking the soup bowls of diners at the corner cafe. I still hope to do some of this but there's not as much room in the town as I'd imagined. But the tracks had to go where the tracks had to go. I tried not to do too much up here. A mixed local will drop a baggage/pax combo at the station on one of the far left tracks, the loco will escape on the other, and switch out maybe two or three out of four or five industries up there. The trailing point spur bottom right in the second photo is for advanced players. Pulling a car off that track and then getting the engine on the other side of it for the trip back down the mountain can be done, but it's a challenge, especially if the goal is to leave the combine in place for passenger boarding. I've had loads of fun operating these tracks already, even before I had them nailed down. I took a page from Kevin's playbook and installed all the switch machines (with wires already soldered on the tabs) on the undersides of these town sections while the sections were off the layout, and the sections are fastened down with bolts and wingnuts so that I can remove each one if I've forgotten something, which I'm sure I have. Boundaries between boards are crossed by short segments of track that come up fairly easily. So the layout now has everything I wanted -- all the dealbreakers. Continuous loop, a small yard, more than one level, a bridge crossing over top of another bridge (or nearly), a tunnel, a siding, and potential for switching operations. All in a little more space than that of a parked car. More soon. Thanks for coming along. -Matt
I think it turned out very good. You had a challenging space to work with. Curious, what is the middle opening in that upper branch line needed for...it looks like each switch point is within reach of an aisle ...and each track within 30 inches of where you could stand to fix a derailment?
Also, I think five industries is pretty ambitious for that small of a space. If it were me, I would be happy with just three..considering you also have passenger ops....the station is a fourth place to spot cars, so to speak.
And you don't want to over tax the yard. The layout works better when the storage yard and number of spots along the layout are in balance. You can fashion other operating plans, but the simplest one has the yard hold all of the spots you need up to the branch, then room for making the swap out. So five industries may be too many if you consider the size of the yard.
Also, when you swap the cars on the upper level, you might need an empty track to hold cars that come off of an industry, so think twice about having every spur occupied by a rail-served building. (Or you could add one track in between the runaround and the long spur to serve as a one-track upper yard.....you can figure out how to shape the industry, maybe flip it to the side of the opening by adjusting the angle of the spur.)
I think there is an excellent line to take for Main Street to cut across the spurs without fouling frogs, switch points, or car storage areas....and decent space for some small commercial buildings along Main Street.
DoughlessCurious, what is the middle opening in that upper branch line needed for...it looks like each switch point is within reach of an aisle ...and each track within 30 inches of where you could stand to fix a derailment?
The idea about not having all the industries being "consumers" only but having some also be "producers" is one I have also thought of. I want a large candy factory or confectioner because I have a Baker's Chocolate tank car that I love and I aim to have sugar cane car as well, and I hope to trade the two out along with a boxcar occasionally for shipping chocolates or other product. I want similar industries, maybe a brewery, that might intake a hopper or boxcar full of grain and then ship out beer in a boxcar. I want to be able to use as many different types of cars as possible, but I only expect each industry to have one car spotted at a time. Maybe one industry will fit two cars if I'm smart about the design. I still have a lot to learn about how industries of the '50s operated. By the way, I am both steam AND early diesel, and I won't pin down my era any more precisely than "the 1940s and 1950s".
DoughlessAlso, when you swap the cars on the upper level, you might need an empty track to hold cars that come off of an industry, so think twice about having every spur occupied by a rail-served building.
As you suggested, I had already planned to have a small stock pen in one corner, maybe that back right one or maybe the trailing points spur, so I can use some stock cars. Thanks again for your thoughts, Douglass and everyone.-Matt
crossthedogIt's true that without that middle opening I could reach any spot to fix a derailment, but doing any trackwork on those inner spurs would not be possible. I'd have to lean over too far and I wouldn't be able to see to do straight drilling. So that middle hole is a temporary access until I get all the track done up in town. The spurs there are on a sort of probation, and in fact after feedback from some of the guys (including you) on my other recent post about industries, I may make some adjustments. That middle piece will have mostly town buildings on it and will be easy to unlock and lift out.
Good, its a temporary hole now, and a hatch later. It doesn't seem like you'll have to use it very much once construction is finished.
What I see are the town buildings/Main Street cutting across the spurs all the way from edge to edge and the hole eventually becoming placement for industries, but people can see things differently.
crossthedogYes, I plan that the long track between the runaround and the access hole, or at least part of it, will be used for temporarily placing cars that need to go back out of town. I believe that this is called a "drill track"?
Sounds good. Yes, any long spur can act as a drill track. That long spur could actually be the team track with an intent of only using one car spot at the very end. Then you can use the remaining length as the storage track. One track can serve two purposes if its long enough.
Your original plan had that spur as part of the runaround. The longer curve that you have now doesn't seem to gain any function...since you've pointed out that coupling cars on curves is not easy.
DoughlessYes, any long spur can act as a drill track. That long spur could actually be the team track with an intent of only using one car spot at the very end. Then you can use the remaining length as the storage track. One track can serve two purposes if its long enough.
DoughlessWhat I see are the town buildings/Main Street cutting across the spurs all the way from edge to edge and the hole eventually becoming placement for industries, but people can see things differently.
DoughlessYour original plan had that spur as part of the runaround. The longer curve that you have now doesn't seem to gain any function...since you've pointed out that coupling cars on curves is not easy.