riogrande5761If you have the space, it might be much better to design an around the walls layout and then you could have much more generous curves such as 28 or 30 inches, and if you limited the benchwork to around 24 inches the reach whould be fine too. You'll need to add a triangular section at the corners for the curves btw.
My layout is primarily made of 16" wide shelf pieces around three walls of the basement. I was able to use 30" radius curves without having to add anything at the corners.
The down side to your plan if the width is 42 inches, is your curves will be rather sharp and longer rolling stock won't like sharp curves such as 18 or even 20 inches.
If you have the space, it might be much better to design an around the walls layout and then you could have much more generous curves such as 28 or 30 inches, and if you limited the benchwork to around 24 inches the reach whould be fine too. You'll need to add a triangular section at the corners for the curves btw.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
DoughlessAs Kevin has mentioned, there are no basements where we propose living. When we start looking more seriously, I'll take note of how high the transisition between the garage slab and house slab is. My guess is that in FL it isn't huge and a small ramp could take care of it.
Mine is 3 1/2".
I am installing A 5 foot long wheelchair ramp to the front door, also a 3 1/2" rise, so the grade will be very gentle.
There are lots of houses down here with train rooms. I found that out when I was looking at houses a couple of years ago.
They go by different names, indoor gyms, craft rooms, bonus rooms, etc.
I saw a couple houses where the garage was simply extended 25 feet from the original plan, and that gave a 22 by 25 room in between the house and garage that could be a train room.
It was surprising the number of options there were.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
davidmurray Doughless: Might I suggest that a ranch house with a washroom in the basement, and a wide enough stairs to add a person lift on the side in the future. The lift plus a wheel chair upstairs and down will be much more pleasamt that coming in from the garage, or other outbuilding to go to the washroom.
Doughless:
Might I suggest that a ranch house with a washroom in the basement, and a wide enough stairs to add a person lift on the side in the future. The lift plus a wheel chair upstairs and down will be much more pleasamt that coming in from the garage, or other outbuilding to go to the washroom.
As Kevin has mentioned, there are no basements where we propose living. When we start looking more seriously, I'll take note of how high the transisition between the garage slab and house slab is. My guess is that in FL it isn't huge and a small ramp could take care of it.
- Douglas
DoughlessThe wife and I have likely decided that we will be moving to somewhere just north of you in about 4 years.
I might be done with the remodel work by then.
davidmurrayDoughless: Might I suggest that a ranch house with a washroom in the basement,
If Doughless is moving into my neck of the woods, basements are not an option.
We bought our current (ranch) house back when we were both around 50. One thing I noticed when house hunting was that so many of the houses we looked at were split-levels. I'm glad we opted for a house with most everything on one level. I remembered when my older sister had knee surgery, and if she was in her frontroom watching TV she had to go up a short flight of stairs just to get to the bathroom and the bedroom.
SeeYou190 davidmurray Someone earlier mentioned avoiding duckunders in case flexibility become a problem. I have mentioned several times before, but worth bringing up again. I am 53 years old, and the next layout should be my last. As such, it is designed with wheelchair access and durability in mind. You never know what the future will bring. -Kevin
davidmurray Someone earlier mentioned avoiding duckunders in case flexibility become a problem.
I have mentioned several times before, but worth bringing up again.
I am 53 years old, and the next layout should be my last. As such, it is designed with wheelchair access and durability in mind. You never know what the future will bring.
I am building a new layout now that is 53 inches tall. I like it. But, it will never be completed 100% because the wife and I have likely decided that we will be moving to somewhere just north of you in about 4 years.
That will be our last house. It will be ranch, because who knows if I'll lose mobility. Hopefully, the layout can be in a third car garage or some other space within the footprint of the house.
Your vision of making it low enough for wheelchair access seems like sound planning. I can't envision the desired height yet, but 53 inches will be too tall.
davidmurraySomeone earlier mentioned avoiding duckunders in case flexibility become a problem.
No matter how much time I spend on drawing plans, when it comes time to build it I almost always make changes. That's part of the reason I like flat-top construction and Kato Unitrack, I can run trains on the track and see what works and then easily change what doesn't.
A suggestion for the OP - maybe build the first section of the layout, like 42" by 72", and then lay some track and see what runs on those 18"R curves. I'd hate to see you spend a lot time building the entire layout as you describe it, and then go out and buy a $300 engine that it turns out can't work on those tight curves.
A lot of interesting topics:
duck-unders: They are great but get old. I had it on my 1st layout and glad to no longer crawl to reach the layout.
drawing layouts: def count me in! I used a free layout drarwing tool and then plotted points on the foam. I then replicate the layout with sharpies. They come in different colors, so use them for sidings, mainline, etc.
layout width: a step-stool gets tiring standing after awhile, so 24" is about my max reach. Also, always work from back to front to avoid reach and knowing over stuff.
I read that some create a removable panel in the layout to work on in a large area. This is cool for an island or peninsula. The peson created it and hid it with scenery. Thoughts?
Here is a SCARM diagram of my layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lzr4johzgk1dq5/Photo%20Feb%2021%2C%209%2000%2050%20AM.bmp?dl=0
Choosing between an island with backdrops or a shelf will probably depend on the size and layout of the room. Island layouts take a lot of real estate... Island with backdrops that block the view will also mean that you will need to physically follow your trains as they run... If you are running DC, then that's not very practical. DCC with a throttle makes it easy, and you will get a lot of mileage with the backdrop.
I opted for a shelf layout for the tiny train room I was allowed to have () and never regretted that decision. 24" is the maximum depth. You WILL need to access the back of your layout... In your case, it could be a "bone" shape layout, as mentioned earlier, with better access in the middle. Many will advocate for larger radii, and I must admit that I have 22" radius on mine. But it's not absolutely necessary: 18" is fine with 4 axle diesels and steamers with 6 drivers (although Mantua's 2-8-2 and oldtime 2-8-0s will do fine). Just keep the rolling stock within 60' and all should run OK. But if you want to run modern diesels (6 axles), then 18" is insufficient IMHO. I think that big engines just don't look right on a small pike. Small engines that run slower just look better to my eye, especially those small steamers...
Simon
Thank you all for the helpful replies! Here is my layout in SCARM if it's helpful to see. Link is below:
Someone earlier mentioned avoiding duckunders in case flexibility become a problem. My best place for going under is 46" of clearance. I figure if it becomes necessary, a chair on wheels should do it.
I began with a drawing which I did on graph paper but I found I had to make a number of adjustments on the fly because either the track or the scenery didn't fit. I remember one mistake I made was figuring I could put the Walthers ice house between the siding tracks and the backdrop. I had he dimensions of the structure but I failed to account for that being the footprint and the eaves extended beyond that. I ended up having to trim the eaves so the roof was flush with the back of the structure. I had laid too much track in that area to rip it up and move it.
SeeYou190 BATMAN There is something about using paper and pencil for a layout. I am definitely a pencil and paper person. All I have ever needed was a good basic sketch and idea to get started.
BATMAN There is something about using paper and pencil for a layout.
I am definitely a pencil and paper person. All I have ever needed was a good basic sketch and idea to get started.
Alton Junction
I have drawn hundreds of variations of my layout area. Not that you have to do that, but I found that what I thought I could fit and what I actually can fit in 3D space are often vastly different. The temptation might be to push trackage as far to the outside as possible to maximize the length of track you can run on, but not at the expense of reach-in distance.
I simply took a sharpie marker and stood at the edge of my around-the-walls layout and reached out as far as I could without bending at the waist and marked the location where the marker was plumb vertical to the foam. For me, anything behind that line is the "no go" zone. I'm not going to want to have complicated trackage with turnouts and the like in a place where I may have to frequently bend and reach.
I also avoided duck-unders for this same reason. I'm pretty flexible right now, but in 20 years?
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
LastspikemikeBear in mind that if you just blaze away and build it you will end up building it at least twice before you're done. Paper and pencils are cheap. Time invested drawing out your plan pays back many, many times over while you finally build it.
I have already built the STRATTON AND GILLETTE five times! Seven if you count the cardboard layout and the experimental segment. Eight if you count the NORFOLK STRATTON train show layout.
You can plan yourself to death, building is fun.
I have enjoyed EVERY one of the previous layouts, and only that kind of experience makes me certain I will enjoy and be satisfied with the final version.
As long as you know your first layout is for learning... leave the gate running and have fun along the way.
BATMANThere is something about using paper and pencil for a layout.
I bought this giant pad of paper with 1" squares at Staples for $7.00. 1" = 1'.
I had a CAD architect program that I could design houses on and was quite proficient with it, however, there is something about using paper and pencil for a layout.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
kilofortyI'm building my first model railroad layout.
OK... all is good here.
1) You are building, not just arm-chairing.
2) It sounds like you know it is your first layout, but not your last.
Here is all the advice I will give you...
All this thinking, drawing, and analyzing will not amount to a small hill of beans compared to how much you will actually learn building your first layout.
Eventually, you will see all the things your wish you would have done differently and the layout will become un-fun.
Then take everything you have learned, including how far you can actually reach, tear the layout down, and build your second one. When you start your second layout you will have the valuable experience it takes to know which questions to ask and what answers are useful.
Have fun! (I know I said it twice, but it is the most important part).
When I built my new layout, I wanted to replicate the entire area around Dearborn Station in Chicago, including the complex of 13 large freight houses. I figured that I needed a length of 30 feet and a width of 5 1/2 feet to do it justice.
I had the necessary 30 feet of length, but I only had 10 1/2 feet of available space for the width due to the location of the furnace. The basement manager demanded a minimum aisle of 4 feet between the layout and the furnace. So, that left me with 6 1/2 feet for the width of the layout.
Obviously, there was no way that I could reach into the layout 6 1/2 feet. So, I decided to create a 2 foot wide aisle on the other side of the layout between the edge of the layout and the basement wall. So, now I was down to 4 1/2 feet (54 inches) of layout width, enough to easily reach in 27 inches from either side but 1 foot short of the width needed to replicate the entire Dearborn Station track work.
My solution was selective compression. Instead of 4 tracks per siding for the freight houses, I went with one track per siding.
Rich
mobilman44 The around the room layout has (IMO) a lot of advantages and I've had two of them (1994-2008, 2008-2020). The main level was about 46 inches (I'm 5-10) and the minimum distance from the wall was 3 feet. If I had a bigger room (mine was 11 1/2 x 15) I could have kept the max width to 3 feet and still work in all the features I wanted. Anyway, I did some things that made the excessive width somewhat tolerable and thought I'd pass them along. - I made two 1x1x1 ft blocks using 1x12s, and covered them with carpet remnants. They looked good, and made a nice portable step up to allow me to more easily reach further distances. They also gave kids a better view. - I did my best to make the furthest distance trackage bulletproof. Especially on the second layout, I succeeded. - When scenicking, I worked from the furthest distance inward. This allowed me to get on the closer areas w/o damaging anything. I also had some thick foam pillows for the ol knees. Really, if the layout is well designed and built, you shouldn't have to reach those far areas all that much........
The around the room layout has (IMO) a lot of advantages and I've had two of them (1994-2008, 2008-2020). The main level was about 46 inches (I'm 5-10) and the minimum distance from the wall was 3 feet. If I had a bigger room (mine was 11 1/2 x 15) I could have kept the max width to 3 feet and still work in all the features I wanted. Anyway, I did some things that made the excessive width somewhat tolerable and thought I'd pass them along.
- I made two 1x1x1 ft blocks using 1x12s, and covered them with carpet remnants. They looked good, and made a nice portable step up to allow me to more easily reach further distances. They also gave kids a better view.
- I did my best to make the furthest distance trackage bulletproof. Especially on the second layout, I succeeded.
- When scenicking, I worked from the furthest distance inward. This allowed me to get on the closer areas w/o damaging anything. I also had some thick foam pillows for the ol knees.
Really, if the layout is well designed and built, you shouldn't have to reach those far areas all that much........
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who pushed the limits when it comes to layout depth. I like deep scenes although the downside is you are going to spend more time and money scenicking them. A couple years ago Tony Koester wrote an article about the advantages of narrow shelves with minimal scenery.
Most of my around the room layout has 3 foot wide benchwork. Most of the trackwork is near the front of the benchwork which means I don't need to do a lot of reaching. The exception is where my main classification yard is. I have an industrial beltway on the opposite side of the main in that area and it sometimes requires a little bit of reaching. I could do it while standing on the floor but I find it easier to use a step stool. That way I don't risk destroying something in the foreground.
I really went over the top where my main passenger station is. That's 4 feet deep. All the track is in the front two feet so the back two feet are really just a 3 dimensional backdrop. At the very end of it is a five foot section where the tracks disappear into a tunnel. I have a lift out section over the track if I need to get at those hidden tracks, which often I do. Since I built that section, I only had to get into the back corner one time and to do that I removed the foreground buildings and climbed on the benchwork. I did build sturdy benchwork and it could support all 270 lbs. of me.
Micro-Mark sells what they call a top side creeper which can help a modeler access the hard to reach areas by providing a platform over the top. That costs several hundred dollars and for the few times I would need it, it's just not cost effective. I created my own version using one of those Little Giant ladders that are advertised occasionally on informercials or on QVC. I can adjust one side of the A-frame ladder to be vertical so I can get it right next to the benchwork. I have one of their flip out platforms that I use to extend into the layout. I've only had to use it a couple times to do maintenance on the scenery at the back of the four foot deep section.
I do have one lift out section which is right behind my roundhouse in a corner of the layout. That I've had to use often. The liftout section has taken a beating over the years and is in need of a facelift.
LastspikemikeBefore you build, draw.
Always the best practice.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
rrinker...If you have room to pull a 16'x42" layout away fromt he wall and have enough room to walk on both sides, you likely have room for something more open and around the walls - again giving you a LOT more backdrop, but now with no reach issue....
I totally agree with Randy, and can't imagine ever going back to a table-top style of layout, where the curves are often too tight, and the train is usually chasing itself.
Wayne
Having a 24" deep layout is prob the most I'd go. I'm 5'8 and have a layout that's 48" high. Those dimensions enable me to get what I need w/o too much trouble.
If you go for an island layout, I would try to widen it out to allow bigger curves. Increasingly, new HO products are built with a 22" minimum radius, and many passenger cars need at least 24" radius.
At one time long ago I had an 8' by 16' HO layout with one long side up against a wall (with a backdrop). I liked having broad curves, but it required a couple of 'pop-ups' - openings where I could get in to work on or fix things. Eventually I rebuilt it to a free-standing layout in sort of a peanut or hourglass shape - six feet at each end, but about 4'-6" (IIRC) in the middle. That allowed for reasonably large curves, but the narrow middle greatly helped reaching the interior of the layout.
If possible, see if you could build the layout 42" wide in the middle but say 54-60" or so wide at each end. Keep in mind the broader curves won't just allow you to run more equipment - even engines or cars that can take an 18" radius curve will look better on wider curves.
There are pros and cons to an island as opposed to around the walls. As with everything, there are going to be trade offs and you have to decide what is most important to YOU. I do agree with the comment that 42" wide is a little narrow for an oval. It's going to limit you to 18" radius track which will in turn limit what kind of equipment will run reliably and look good on curves that sharp. A double sided backdrop is a great idea for an island or peninsula. For at least ten years I have had in my mind to build a 4x8 winter layout which I would bring out around Christmas time along with all the other decorations. If I ever get around to it, it's going to have a double sided back drop. Also, such a back drop doesn't necessarily have to go down the center of the layout. You could angle it so it is at a diagonal or you can have more room on one side of it than the other and use the narrow side for a small staging yard.