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Can't decide about adding 2% stater incline risers

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Can't decide about adding 2% stater incline risers
Posted by kasskaboose on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 3:43 PM

After gluing down the cork, laying down track (not ballested), and adding scenery, I'm thinking of adding the WS 2% incline starter sets.  The elevated configuarion would not have any turnouts and the incline starter would remain straight.

Some Qs for those who think this is a good idea:

About how much more track would I need to add? 

Since the WS starter incline is wider than the cork sub-roadbed, do I trim off the excess foam or just cover it with plaster and paint?

 

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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 3:59 PM

You glue the starter in place (I used caulk), then when dry add your cork (at the bottom strech it out and at the top trim it some) and then I build up any surounding terrain and plaster cloth up to the cork.

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 6:31 PM

Those risers are that wide for simplicity in building twin tracks. If you trim them down I recommend purchasing Woodland Scenic foam knife. Very effective cutting tool.

For a full grade to overpass height of 4" WS makes a package of risers. That takes  16' of track.  

Using only starter pieces rather than the riser grade set you also need base risers starting with 1/2" under the second 2% starter, then 1" under the third and so on, adding another 1/2" per additional starter. 

Alyth Yard

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 10:55 AM

The Woodland Scenic foam pieces are meant to be "sub-roadbed" items. Ideally, you would plan things out and put the foam pieces (grades, risers etc.) down first, then put cork or WS "track-bed" or whatever you want to use on top of that. The foam pieces have grooves cut into them every 3/4 inch or so to allow them to bend around curves. If you lay track directly on top of them, you'll need to fill the openings in somehow first.

The Woodland Scenic 2% starter grade will raise your track up 1/2" so all the elevated track would need 1/2" foam under it (if you're only going to raise it 1/2") or more if you're raising it higher, as LastSpikeMike says in his reply.  BTW the risers and grades aren't wide enough for HO double track, but they are wide enough to accomodate 'click track' that has ballast attached like Atlas or Kato makes.

Stix
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Posted by jjdamnit on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 1:11 PM

Hello All,


What scale are you modeling?

On my HO 4'x8' pike I used the Woodland Scenics 3% incline set.

This curved incline takes up the entire 4-foot width of the pike using an asymmetrical curve comprised of 18- and 22-inch sectional track with WS foam roadbed. 


On my pike the reason for this curved incline is to facilitate the unloading siding and platform for the Tyco operating hopper cars. 


What is the purpose of the elevated section?

kasskaboose
Since the WS starter incline is wider than the cork sub-roadbed, do I trim off the excess foam or just cover it with plaster and paint?

As has been posted the incline(s) should be installed before the roadbed and then the roadbed installed on top of the incline(s). 


Depending on what adhesive you used to put the roadbed down you might be able to remove the roadbed and reinstall it on top of the incline. 


To install the WS inclines I used a dual-temp hot glue gun at the low setting.

I put the risers in place and temporarily held it with 2-inch "T" pins and put down a bead of hot glue along the sides of the inclines.

Once the glue had set I removed the "T" pins.

wjstix
If you lay track directly on top of them, you'll need to fill the openings in somehow first.

You can put the track down directly on the incline. However, any ballast will fall through the kerfs cut in the incline.

To prevent the ballast from falling through you can simply put a barrier of paper under the track.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 1:20 PM

jjdamnit
. 
 wjstix If you lay track directly on top of them, you'll need to fill the openings in somehow first. Not necessarily...
 You can put the track down directly on the incline. However, any ballast will fall through the kerfs cut in the incline. To prevent the ballast from falling through you can simply put a barrier of paper under the track. Hope this helps. Ad

Yes I didn't mean you had to fill them in with caulk or something, but you have to do something to cover the openings. You could just do a thin layer of paper towel / plaster too. 

 

p.s. using paper probably not a great idea if you're going to ballast the track using liquids - water and detergent or alcohol and/or diluted matte medium or white glue - as the water can warp or weaken the paper.

Stix
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Posted by jjdamnit on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 1:23 PM

Hello All,

wjstix
Yes I didn't mean you had to fill them in with caulk or something, but you have to do something to cover the openings. You could just do a thin layer of paper towel / plaster too.

Since the OP has reversed the "layering" of the roadbed and incline set(s) my point exactly.

Sorry for any confusion.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by jjdamnit on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 1:34 PM

Hello All,

wjstix
p.s. using paper probably not a great idea if you're going to ballast the track using liquids - water and detergent or alcohol and/or diluted matte medium or white glue - as the water can warp or weaken the paper.

Possibly...

The "Old Style" of making plaster-based scenery did use sheets of paper towel soaked in Plaster Of Paris.

Paper towels come in various thicknesses and strength- -without mentioning brands.

Depending on the saturation of the liquid meant to adhere the ballast the paper might hold up. Or, using several layers.

Thicker construction paper might also be an option. Styrene might be difficult to cut and expensive.

My wife donates to several charities. We get pads of notepaper with a thicker backing. This backing material might work too.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 2:07 PM

Just for clarity the WS risers are moulded with symmetrical notches alternating on each side, kind of like a spring. You can bend them either way and install them either way up.

The risers are wide enough for double track  in N scale. For HO you fit two sets of of identical risers side by side and adjoining and that fits double track.

You will need to lift up your cork roadbed if it is the single track wide pre-beveled stuff or the WS risers will be a bit wonky.

Although WS recommends you cover the tops of the risers with plaster cloth before laying track it isn't necessary.  The gaps in the face of the risers that allow bending are small enough standard flex track or sectional track can be placed right onto the foam. However, that won't look right so some sort of roadbed should go down first, cork will work fine.

Alyth Yard

Canada

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 2:58 PM

Lastspikemike
 The gaps in the face of the risers that allow bending are small enough standard flex track or sectional track can be placed right onto the foam.

Yes that's correct, but then if you try to add ballast, the ballast is going to fall into the openings in the risers. Wink

Stix
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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 4:08 PM

kasskaboose
"Can't decide about adding 2% stater incline risers".

If you're trying to decide on whether you want to use the risers or not, it suggests to me that you don't yet have a reasonably well-developed plan for the portion of your layout which will be elevated.  Perhaps fleshing-out your expections of that area will help you to decide on whether the risers are the option you want or not.

While we can use rock cliffs or retaining walls of some sort to transition from the main level to a higher one, it may start to look somewhat contrived if that's the only method used to separate the two levels.

All of the many grades on my layout were done using cut-out lengths, straight and curved, of 3/4" plywood.  While some places do use the retaining wall feature and one area will involve a fairly long stretch of cliffside running, most areas used plaster-on-screen to meld the low areas to higher ones.
For using foam inclines, I'd suggest putting the inclines in place, then, where possible or practical, drape plaster cloth over both sides of the foam incline to create slopes alongside the incline...this will not only make the scene look less contrived, but will also cover those zig-zag gaps in the styrofoam incline.
You can then add your cork roadbed and the track, and will have room for adding ballast, plus sloped areas alongside the track where you can add scenery.

Wayne

 

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 5:58 PM

wjstix

 

 
Lastspikemike
 The gaps in the face of the risers that allow bending are small enough standard flex track or sectional track can be placed right onto the foam.

 

Yes that's correct, but then if you try to add ballast, the ballast is going to fall into the openings in the risers. Wink

 

Eventually it'll stop...

Wink

Alyth Yard

Canada

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 9:02 PM

Lastspikemike

wjstix

Lastspikemike

 The gaps in the face of the risers that allow bending are small enough standard flex track or sectional track can be placed right onto the foam.

Yes that's correct, but then if you try to add ballast, the ballast is going to fall into the openings in the risers. Wink

 

 Eventually it'll stop...

Wink

That process sounds similar to when the CPR was trying to lay track in Northern Ontario, and it kept sinking into the muskeg.

Wayne

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Posted by kasskaboose on Thursday, February 25, 2021 12:24 PM

Thinking about things more, I plan to get the 2% starter incline and not use the 4% version.  Going for a gradual rise avoids a lot of issues with push/pull of cars, consist length, etc.. 

I also found a larger area of the layout to add the incline and then 1/2" foam sheets before using another 2% starter for the decline.  The entire length is about 14'. That's plenty of space. 

Fingers crossed that the additional track with the elevation is minimal. 

Thanks all!

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Posted by Lastspikemike on Thursday, February 25, 2021 1:36 PM

doctorwayne

 

 
Lastspikemike

wjstix

Lastspikemike

 The gaps in the face of the risers that allow bending are small enough standard flex track or sectional track can be placed right onto the foam.

Yes that's correct, but then if you try to add ballast, the ballast is going to fall into the openings in the risers. Wink

 

 Eventually it'll stop...

Wink

 

That process sounds similar to when the CPR was trying to lay track in Northern Ontario, and it kept sinking into the muskeg.

Wayne

 

Or filling a wooden trestle with sand until it supports the track.....CNR this time, on swampy land, hence the need for the trestle in the first place, I never did understand how piling sand under the trestle could ever support the track... but it sure squashed the culverts carrying a tiny creek way, way down at the bottom of the trestle.

Alyth Yard

Canada

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Posted by jjdamnit on Thursday, February 25, 2021 3:52 PM

Hello All,

"kasskaboose" you have asked the "How" but you haven't answered the "Why".

"Why" are you considering this grade and "What" do you hope to achieve.

Answering these basic planning questions helps the responders with their answers.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by aj1s on Thursday, February 25, 2021 7:30 PM

For a 2% incline over 14 horizontal feet, you will need and extra 0.034 inches of track.

Or just fudge it...

-- Andy - Arlington TX

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