jjdamnit Hello All, JDVass It is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts with either Tortiose o(r) SIC Walthers switch machines... My question is why do you want/need to "upgrade" these turnouts. Please realize that An Atlas "Snap Switch" does not refer to the type of mechanism that throws the points on the turnout, it refers to the turnout itself. The frog (or "size") of a Snap Switch is approximately a 4-1/2. As has been posted replacing these turnouts will require some major shifting of the existing track. If you want to change HOW the turnouts are controlled you can do that without having to replace the entire turnout. Brand "X" turnouts do not have to be thrown by brand "X" solenoids, servos, and/or slow-motion motors. You can mix and match, with certain caveats. On my pike I throw both Atlas Remote Switch Machines along with PICO PL-11s. Both are a dual-solenoid type. I use the Atlas Switch Control Box (#56) to throw both through a PECO Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) with no problems. As far as the track work on your inherited pike as the saying goes, "If it 'aint broke, don't fix it." Hope this helps.
Hello All,
JDVass It is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts with either Tortiose o(r) SIC Walthers switch machines...
My question is why do you want/need to "upgrade" these turnouts.
Please realize that An Atlas "Snap Switch" does not refer to the type of mechanism that throws the points on the turnout, it refers to the turnout itself.
The frog (or "size") of a Snap Switch is approximately a 4-1/2.
As has been posted replacing these turnouts will require some major shifting of the existing track.
If you want to change HOW the turnouts are controlled you can do that without having to replace the entire turnout.
Brand "X" turnouts do not have to be thrown by brand "X" solenoids, servos, and/or slow-motion motors. You can mix and match, with certain caveats.
On my pike I throw both Atlas Remote Switch Machines along with PICO PL-11s. Both are a dual-solenoid type. I use the Atlas Switch Control Box (#56) to throw both through a PECO Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) with no problems.
As far as the track work on your inherited pike as the saying goes, "If it 'aint broke, don't fix it."
Hope this helps.
Actually no, an Atlas 18" radius snap switch is about a #3-1/2 frog angle and the 22" radius snap switch is barely a #4.
The Atlas Custom Line turnout labeled "#4", is really a #4-1/2. Lay a snap switch on top of a Custom Line #4, not even close.
Sheldon
JDVassIt is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts with either Tortiose SIC o(r) SIC Walthers switch machines...
As has been posted replacing these turnouts will require some major reworking of the existing track plan.
If you want to change HOW the turnouts are controlled you can do that without having to replace the turnout.
As far as the trackwork on your inherited pike as the saying goes, "If it 'aint broke, don't fix it."
However, if you want powered frogs you will need to upgrade to turnouts with metal frogs- -which, as has been posted- -the Snap Switches don't have.
Atlas Custom Line turnouts do have the potential to power the frog but they are not a direct replacement for Snap Switches and will require track realignments.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Doughless Maybe its semantics. I'm aware of several people reporting issues with some of their equipment over some of their Pecos, but to say that Pecos have a shorting issue is to imply that every car or loco will short over a Peco every time, and that the issue is widespread.
Maybe its semantics. I'm aware of several people reporting issues with some of their equipment over some of their Pecos, but to say that Pecos have a shorting issue is to imply that every car or loco will short over a Peco every time, and that the issue is widespread.
I've never implied that nor have I ever heard of anyone else implying it either; it serves no purpose to suggest something that is far from the truth.
In the case of Peco Insulfrog and Unifrog, I call it a design weakness, because there is the potential due to the frog design, for shorts to occur as I described earlier. Due to this, I don't plan to buy any Peco Insulfrog or Unifrog turnouts in the future. I'll either hunt down Electrofrog or try out the new Walthers line of turnouts. Since the Peco code 83 Electrofrog #6 were discontinued late last year, I've hunted down enough to cover my needs hopefully.
It would be helpful if these folks would diagnose exactly why some of their equipment shorts out a Peco and other pieces of equipment do not, rather than implying its random chance that everybody simply has to take.
Some have indeed diagnosed the issue. Sometimes it's because the wheel tread is flat and not sloped and that causes the gap to be bridged even though the tread is not particurly wide.
The random chance element enters in because people have potentially hundreds of models running and they may not have the time or energy to critically check the wheels on every model. Personally, I would argue that it's better to have a turnout that does not add a potential for shorting to the equations, and that saves me having to chase down the problem. Chasing down shorts is a hassle as it is, let alone add in additional potential to the mix.
I have been running over Pecos on my last layout and the portion that's completed on my new layout and I never have experienced the issue.
Consider yourself one of those who has, so far, dodged the bullet. If I already had a layout full of Insulfrogs, I'd not go to the trouble of changing them all out, but I would deal with shorts as they occur using the traditional methods of mitigating them. And as it is, I have a couple of Peco Insulfrogs I had bought in years past and am going to use them and if I have issues, at least it's only a very few that I will have to do the nail polish trick on.
In any event, it sounds like OP has Atlas track and I would recommend that he simply stick with Atlas turnouts.
Having Atlas track should work for the OP. I still have a bunch of Atlas code 83 turnouts left over from the last layout and I'll plan on using them for industrial sidings with Caboose Industries ground throws.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Doughless Peco turnouts do not have a shorting issue. The heel of the frog is narrower than other turnouts, so equipment that has wider tread or out of gauge or excessive slop might cause the track to short. You didn't specify which do not have shorting issues, but only Electrofrog can truly fit that description. I've been reading a lot of folks having issues with Peco Insulfrog turnouts indeed having shorting issues; those issues now extend to the new Unifrog as one hobbyist demonstrated in a Youtube video, and he was using newer HO rolling stock. The metal tread can bridge the two rails of opposing polarity where they are close together near the frog. The Unifrog have the same design and can also short out if a metal wheel tread bridges the gap. Yes, you can paint some finger nail polish to insulate the surface of the rail in the offending area, but I'd rather not have a layout full of them and have to deal with that issue. Some, as Clint Eastwood would say, are feeling lucky and don't have the issue. Some not so much.
Doughless Peco turnouts do not have a shorting issue. The heel of the frog is narrower than other turnouts, so equipment that has wider tread or out of gauge or excessive slop might cause the track to short.
You didn't specify which do not have shorting issues, but only Electrofrog can truly fit that description. I've been reading a lot of folks having issues with Peco Insulfrog turnouts indeed having shorting issues; those issues now extend to the new Unifrog as one hobbyist demonstrated in a Youtube video, and he was using newer HO rolling stock. The metal tread can bridge the two rails of opposing polarity where they are close together near the frog. The Unifrog have the same design and can also short out if a metal wheel tread bridges the gap.
Yes, you can paint some finger nail polish to insulate the surface of the rail in the offending area, but I'd rather not have a layout full of them and have to deal with that issue. Some, as Clint Eastwood would say, are feeling lucky and don't have the issue. Some not so much.
- Douglas
DoughlessPeco turnouts do not have a shorting issue. The heel of the frog is narrower than other turnouts, so equipment that has wider tread or out of gauge or excessive slop might cause the track to short.
Do you know whether the existing switches are 18" snap switches, or the lesser-known 22" snap switches?
I ask because although they are both called snap switches, operationally the 22" is much better than the 18". The 22" creates a nice smooth curve on the diverging route, rather than the kink seen on the 18".
I use several 22" snap switches on my layout. The diverging route is about the same smoothness, maybe slightly better, than a #4. So if the turnouts are 22" snap switches, I suggest you keep them, provided your trains run through them OK.
At a glance the 18" and 22" look similar because both have plastic frogs. You can tell the difference because the 22" snap switch is overall longer (10.5" rather than 9"), and the curved diverging route is much longer.
Re: motors, personally I made my own using geared DC motors, at a cost of about $3 per turnout. But you'll need to have (or be ready to learn) a bit of electronics knowledge before going down that road.
Peco turnouts do not have a shorting issue. The heel of the frog is narrower than other turnouts, so equipment that has wider tread or out of gauge or excessive slop might cause the track to short. Their geometry makes them more compact than Atlas, so it might not be a suitable drop in replacement.
If the rest of the layout is Atlas track, I would recommend using Atlas turnouts or Micro Engineering.
JDVassHe built it so it comes apart in 6 pieces. It was a fair bit of work to move it but we pullled it off.
Fascinating. Congratulations on your ability to preserve the layout.
I have removed several layouts from homes, and none of them were designed to come apart in pieces. A few of them looked like they would, but trackwork and/or scenery always made that impossible.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I have all but two turnouts that are Atlas on my current layout (21 of them to be specific) and I admit I have one or two problems but I chaulk that up to getting most of them used. (In the past, i would purchase them in lots or older types as in Mark 2s or 3s to save money. I have also had an occasional problem with the machines but that's a different problem but I get those the same way as well.) The other two are code 100 Insul-frog Pecos only because I needed 3-ways to fit the needed track design and geometery. They are equipped with ground throws as trying to fit machines on them proved to be a bit too much and they are in reasonable reach.
A lot of the needed turnout depends on what equipment you are running. Bigger/longer equipment needs larger turnouts. (i.e. an F7 can get away with a #4 while an SD-60 would most likely need at least a #6 or even a #8.)
My Atlas turnouts have worked flawlessly for close to 30 years and I’ve never had a defective Atlas turnout in 60 years. I have had three of the most used turnouts give me a problem from 25 years of service so I guess that makes them less superior to Pecos.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
JDVass It is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts with either Tortiose of Walthers switch machines
JDVassAlso would you recommend insulated or electrified frogs
What I call snap switches, all have plastic frog and cannot be electrified. Very short wheel base locos or locos with dubious electrical pickup may need electrified frogs. But that is not an absolute. Some of us do fine with our 45 tonners and dead frogs.
Your bigger problem is that turnouts are not interchangeable. They are different lengths and angles. Is it functionally and appearance-wise worth it to rework the track? That is up to you.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
SeeYou190 I don't have any advice on turnouts that is worth anything... BUT... How did you get a 10 by 20 layout into your basement? Do you have pictures? That soulds like quite an effort. -Kevin
I don't have any advice on turnouts that is worth anything...
BUT... How did you get a 10 by 20 layout into your basement? Do you have pictures? That soulds like quite an effort.
He built it so it comes apart in 6 pieces. It was a fair bit of work to move it but we pullled it off.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I think I still have both a VHS and a DVD of Red Dawn
Red Dawn is one of the greatest 80s movies. I am sure I have seen it at least 25 times. My wife hates it.
"I was outnumbered five to one, but I got four of them."
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Patrick Swazye said in Road House, "opinions vary". Somehow I never imagined Sheldon would quote Roadhouse in a response. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Like Patrick Swazye said in Road House, "opinions vary".
Somehow I never imagined Sheldon would quote Roadhouse in a response.
I'm a big Patrick Swazye fan, I think I still have both a VHS and a DVD of Red Dawn..... and Dirty Dancing..... but Road House, Patrick Swazye and Sam Elliott.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALLike Patrick Swazye said in Road House, "opinions vary".
I’ve had very good luck with Atlas turnouts, most of mine are on 31 years of service. I’ve had three wear out after 25 or so years, not too bad as far as I’m concerned. I would guess over my 70 year HO model railroading career I bought about 60 or so and I’ve only had one with a problem. It had a bit of sprue that kept one of the points from closing properly, a quick trim and it’s been working fine ever since.I guess If I needed to give a testimonial I would say the four Custom Line #6 turnouts that I did a Mel bash to make a double crossover would work. I cut up four Custom Line Turnouts and made a double crossover that has worked perfectly since day one. I couldn’t find a double crossover that would clear my Rivarossi Pizza Cutter flanges. Every manufactured code 83 double crossover had problem with the deep flanges. Shorting or derailing or both. I never had a single problem with the Atlas code 83 turnouts with my deep flanges.As drawn up on my CAD next to the single crossover where the double crossover was going to be installed.
Assembled and ready to go.Installed on my dual mainline.
A year or so after installation, working perfect.
I might add all four sets of points are moved with a single Tortoise.I’m I sold on Atlas turnouts, YES! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Like Patrick Swazye said in Road House, "opinions vary".
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I very hapoy with Atlas, but, some others will be along shortly to tell you how bad they are.... Enjoying yourself there? Atlas turnouts are not bad. The code 83 are the best between the code 83 and 100 versions. Some of them have a bit of a bow in them but you can pull that out when laying. Peco is in the process of going to a single new frog design and doing away with inso and electro frog. Their new frog is more like Atlas, imagine that. Actually the Unifrog are not exactly like Atlas. The Peco Unifrog have the same shorting issue that the Peco Insulfrog has but they have replaced the plastic tip in the Insulfrog with a tiny metal tip, where as Atlas metal frog is much bigger. MicroEngineering offers a line of turnouts many like in code 70 and code 83. Also, when Shinohara closed down, Walthers lost their supplier but have a new line of turnouts due out very soon and look pretty nice.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I very hapoy with Atlas, but, some others will be along shortly to tell you how bad they are....
I very hapoy with Atlas, but, some others will be along shortly to tell you how bad they are....
Enjoying yourself there? Atlas turnouts are not bad. The code 83 are the best between the code 83 and 100 versions.
Some of them have a bit of a bow in them but you can pull that out when laying.
Peco is in the process of going to a single new frog design and doing away with inso and electro frog. Their new frog is more like Atlas, imagine that.
Actually the Unifrog are not exactly like Atlas. The Peco Unifrog have the same shorting issue that the Peco Insulfrog has but they have replaced the plastic tip in the Insulfrog with a tiny metal tip, where as Atlas metal frog is much bigger.
MicroEngineering offers a line of turnouts many like in code 70 and code 83.
Also, when Shinohara closed down, Walthers lost their supplier but have a new line of turnouts due out very soon and look pretty nice.
Just tired of misinformation from Lastspikemike, and bored with "PECO is so much better".
My objections to PECO are the throwbar springs and the electrical properties that don't suit my needs. So now PECO is changing to be more like Atlas electrically, how about that....that's why said "more like" and not "exactly like". The likeness is more in the electrical change, the the frog design - I still like the Atlas frog design better - functionally. Appearance I can fix with paint.
I realize some people love those features. PECO quality is great, but the Atlas geometry is better, the Atlas electrical is better for me, and so is the price.
And I have developed methods to even curve Atlas turnouts for large radius curved turnouts.
And if I need a slip switch or double crossover, Walthers is th answer, or I will build my own, without any expensive jigs from Fastracks.
I have over 120 Atlas Code 100 Mark IV turnouts in #4, #6 and #8. They're value priced at many online dealers. I use their switch machines as well, both under the table and top mounted. They're selenoid so they could burn up if you hold down the momentary contact to throw them (been there, done that) (I use black and red push buttons).
Since my trackwork is pretty much bullet proof, I like to put my funds into engines and rolling stock...
Neal
JDVassI want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts
You'll have a lot of track realignment to do !
A thread on turnouts, I can feel a good one coming on.
Mike.
My You Tube
I second using Fast Tracks. My current layout has over 50 turnouts and there is no way my budget could have purchased 50 commercially produced turntouts. Best of all, you'll learn how to build any turnout configuration you'll ever need for this or any future layout.
Hornblower
For me - Fast Tracks. If you don't want to make your own, you can purchase them online from places like eBay. The frogs are live so you'll need a switch or ground throw for changing the polariy - e.g. Caboose Industies S220.
I was very pleased with the ones that I installed on my last layout. They were smooth, quiet, and looked great.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
JDVassIt is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts
Kinda depends what's already there...I mean you can't just drop a #8 turnout in place of a #4 snap switch. Also depends what type of track was used - code 83 or code 100?
SeeYou190 JDVass A friend of mine passed away and I now have his 10x20 layout in my basement. I don't have any advice on turnouts that is worth anything... BUT... How did you get a 10 by 20 layout into your basement? Do you have pictures? That soulds like quite an effort. -Kevin
JDVass A friend of mine passed away and I now have his 10x20 layout in my basement.
I'm guessing in two or three pieces thru an exterior entrance like all basements should have.
When the Atlas code 83 Custom Line came out I stopped building my own turnouts and started using Atlas, except when I need somethi g custom.
Older PECO code 100 turnouts are curved thru the frog like your Atlas snap switches, not as sharp but still curved and not like a real turnout.
I wish you well, but you will find out shortly there are lots of strong opinions on turnouts, just like my strong opinion, which is PECO makes a really nice product, but I don't like, or can't use a lot of its features, making it not worth the extra money for me.
A happy money saving Atlas user here,
JDVassA friend of mine passed away and I now have his 10x20 layout in my basement.
I bought my first Atlas turnout back in the 60s and pretty well stuck with Atlas through the years. I used the Atlas under the layout switch machines but really never liked them, they have been marginal since day one.The Tortoise is too pricy for me as well as too large. I like the Peco PL-10 switch machine over the Atlas, I have used the Peco PL-10 on my Atlas turnouts and they work much better than the Atlas ever did. If I were starting over I would go with servos. Tam Valley has great servo controllers and a SG90 servo off eBay is $1.50. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
After many years of a 4x8 HO layout of Kato Unitrack I suddenly have a larger layout. I friend of mine passed away and I now have his 10x20 layout in my basement. It is a great layout but it uses a lot of Atlas snap switches. I want to upgrade these to #4, 6, and 8 turnouts with either Tortiose of Walthers switch machines but I am not familiar with these so I would like to ask you all some questions.
First what brand of turnouts would you recommend? I am thinking Peco but am very open to suggestions. Also would you recommend insulated or electrified frogs? What is the benefit of one or the other?
Also what switch motors would you recommend? I am considering the Walthers system as it looks fairly straight forward with simple plug connectors.
Thank you all, I appreciate any info on this.