Hi everyone,
I have saved all my Model Railroader magazines from when I was a kid. My last issue was April, 1990. I have now re-subscribed after nearly 30 years. My renewed interest was initiated when I made a circle of track on the floor for my kids (10 and 13 years old) a few months ago. They were mesmerized (to my surprise) ...and they have both picked out HO kits to build on our future layout.
Which brings me to my problem -- I don't know where to start. Back when I was reading Model Railroader 30 years ago, it seemed like there was only Atlas track products and Walthers buildings. I still have my old Atlas "King Size Plan Book" and other Atlas plan books. My kids and I thought the 'Berkshire Valley Route' had everything we were looking for (mountains, river, turntable, etc...). But now it seems like there are a lot of new players in the hobby (Circruittron, etc. etc.), so I question the wisdom of trying to build a layout that focuses on only Atlas track products. Not to mention I'm now trying to understand DCC? Pretty sure that didn't exist 30 years ago.
The appeal of the old Atlas track plan books are very strong for someone like me - they pretty much tell you everything you need and how to do it. I guess that brings me to my question - does it make sense to invest time into an old Atlas track plan given all the developments that have happened in the last 30 years? Or are there newer books that have good track plans? I have bought a few, but none of the ones that I have purchased are as thorough as the old Atlas plan books (why is that? I can't be the only one...). Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. The design-my-own plan idea seems a bit daunting considering we would like some modest elevation and again... DCC what?
I have quite a bit of room in my basement to make this happen, and I'm not terribly worried about the budget. Any ideas for me out there? If not, I'll keep reading... thanks all!
Their are a few books out there and some are good and some bad. It really depends on where you want to go with this, I know, you don't know but the decisions will change with direction. If it is just for the kids then something like Easytrack or Katos Unitrack will get you up and running quickly. Buy a good DCC ready engine and a good DC power pack, both will come in handy if you move over to DCC. The reason is DC is more forgiving and your kids are small now. Later if you really get into the hobby you can stick a decoder in the engine if you go DCC and the transformer is great for testing a DCC layout and engines that have not been converted, also my turntable needs the AC ouput to turn from a regular DC power pack.
to the Model Railroader forums. Your first few posts will be delayed by the moderators, but that will end pretty soon.
My best advice would be to build one of the Atlas plans now, while your enthusiasm level is high, and your childred are interested. Learn as much as you can, and have fun.
Later, tear it down, and use everything you have learned to build a bigger and better layout.
Experiment a lot with the Atlas layout, and find out what works for you. We all use different techniques to get what we want.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I agree that using sectional track will allow you to experiment and change track plans as you learn more about the hobby. The only other suggestion I have is to go directly to DCC. The difference is that DCC runs the trains while DC runs the track. Once you run with DCC, you'll never go back to DC. It truly is that much of a difference. DCC will also allow you AND your kids to each run a train at the same time with no fancy wiring. DCC basically requires two wires between the DCC system and the track. Yes, you may need multiple connection points between these two wires and the track (bus and feeders) but it is essentially still two wires!
Don't worry about DCC being too sophisticated for kids. They'll understand it long before you do! I have had several kids run my 10' by 19' double deck HO layout and none have had any problem understanding how to operate with DCC. I once served as the brakeman for a 10 year old boy who was thrown into a full operating session the first time he had ever run trains (his family had just come to look). He caught on immediately and was so well hooked that he made has mother wait for him to finish running his second train (switching and all). His 5 year old brother apparently did pretty well, too!
I would recommend a basic DCC system with one programming throttle from NCE, Digitrax or MRC, plus a WiFi module so that you can use any "smart device" as a wireless throttle. I use the MRC Prodigy Advance DCC system with two tethered throttles, two wireless throttles and an MRC WiFi module that allows up to eight smart throttles to be used simultaneously. The MRC system does not require a computer for WiFi access so it is truly plug and play. The only thing I've had to add is an NCE EB1 circuit breaker to protect the track while allowing the DCC system (and WiFi module) to remain powered up during track shorts. Prior to installing the extra breaker, a short circuit would cut power to the WiFi module and all the smart throttle users would lose their WiFi connection.
Go for it and you'll never look back. The best prices are usually available from Model Train Stuff and Trainworld (both on-line). Both offer DCC equipped or DCC and Sound equipped locos for very reasonable prices, as well as just about anything else you'll need for your layout. Good luck and enjoy!
Hornblower
A "click track" layout, like a Kato Unitrack layout, is going to go together much quicker and have less electrical issues than using Atlas snap-track pieces. Of course if you're building a small layout (4' x 8' for example) Atlas Tru-track could be an option, especially since you're familiar with Atlas already.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/c-1051-ho-true-track.aspx
BTW if you do buy a new engine or two, I would recommend getting ones that are DCC-equipped. Nowadays DCC decoders are "dual mode" so you can run the engine on DC, but if (more likely, when) you later change to DCC, you don't have to do anything to the engine, it will be ready to go.
Hello All,
back to a great hobby for young and old.
Yes, a lot has changed since your last foray into model railroading.
But many things have stayed constant.
To clarify, a track plan is a track plan no matter what manufacturer's components you use to make it.
One of the biggest changes in building a layout is the advent of flex track.
This track comes in 36-inch lengths and can be bent or formed to any radii from a tight 15-inch curve to subtle changes in direction.
Many older track plans are based on the tried-and-true sectional track.
These are typically 9-inch sections of track in straight or fixed radius: typically 15-, 18-, 22-, and 24-inch radii.
Sectional track also comes in smaller pre-cut sections from 3/4-inch to 6-inches and partial radius track of 1/3 or 1/2 sections of curves.
Another type of track you might encounter has a plastic roadbed built-in. These are considered sectional track because their lengths and radii are fixed.
These go my many proprietary manufacturer's names: Kato Uni Track, Atlas True-Track, Bachmann E-Z Track, et al.
All can be used to create the layout you want.
On the control side there are now two predominant systems in North America; DC- -Direct Current, and DCC- -Digital Command Control. For brevity, I won't get into the European systems.
DC controls the locomotive(s) speed by varying the current to the locomotive through the track from 0v DC to 12v DC through a rheostat in the power pack or "cab".
DCC controls the locomotive(s) by having a constant current to the track and sending out packets of digital information that are received by decoders in each locomotive to control the movements of the particular locomotive programmed to receive those commands.
It has been said, "In DC you control the track while in DCC you control the locomotive.
Controlling more than one locomotive in DC requires block control with multiple power packs and a myriad of switches and lots of wiring.
With DCC you only need one controller, depending on the system a power pack, and less wiring. You can control a small multi locomotive layout with only two feeder wires from the DCC system to the track.
Many will say that DC is less expensive than DCC.
What I spent on DC with multi-cab control, block switches, and wiring would have been enough to get a basic, expandable, DCC system.
If all this seems overwhelming check out the National Model Railroad Association website. NMRA.org.
Check out the "Getting Started In Model Railroading" link for more info.
Keep the questions coming and...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Circuitron was definitely around when you were last in the hobby - their flasher boards and such go back to 1977, the Tortoise switch machines came out in 1984. DCC was not around, there was a mishmash of incompatible command control systems so none ever really took off.
Best advice, start small. Get your feet wet, keep it simple, explore some of the new materials and techniques that have come around since you last built a layout. Once you're more comfortable and have a better idea of what you like and what you don't like, you can move on to something more interesting and fun. Don't fall in love with that first experimental layout, and absolutely do not keep a running total of money spent. Be prepared to trach it, saving structures, the trains, the control system, etc, but don't worry about the ground cover and other stuff that can;t be removed in a reusable state. The return on the investment was the fun you got while it lasted, and the education in learning how to build it.
Yes, there are articles about people wh started day 1 and filled their basement, they love what they have, no regrets. They got lucky. Far more of those big basement empires are not even close to the owner's first ever layout. Or even second or third. So start small and learn first. There's a term that I don;t recall seeing back in the 90's and earlier that has gotten some traction today - "Chainsaw Layout". Be prepared to demolish that first effort once you learn just what it is you want to get out of this hobby, so when you start the next layout, the focus is on those things, and not just a hodge podge of whatever happened to look neat at some given hour perusing the catalogs or web sites of some manufacturer. You may be able to answer some of these questions, because you have a head start over a stone cold newbie, having previously been in the hobby, but with a nearly 30 year gap, there is, as you state, a lot of new things that didn't exist, and new ways of doing things. And more accurate models available.
Most of all - have fun. It's a hobby!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
In 30 years there has been a lot new models on the market, especially the last 15 years - high fidelity details models. Sticker shock will get you too but there is an enormous variety of nice models out now.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I really appreciate the responses thus far! There is a lot to consider here. By my reading, and the wisdom on the reponses so far, I will invest in DCC. It looks great. My old Atlas books talk about the electrical issues with reversing loops, etc. Looks like that is no longer a problem with DCC. Exciting development...
My kids are entirely invested in a layout plan that encomposes the mountains of Montana (or at least the Badlands of North Dakota) on one end and Duluth (Minnesota shipping city on Lake Superior) Harbor on the other end... It's been fun to dream about this and hopefully we can come up with something. I must admit; I'm not the type of person that likes the idea of building a small (4x8) layout only to tear it down again for the "real" layout in a year or so. But I can certainly see the wisdom in doing this, especially to properly capture my kids attention right from the beginning. They may not enjoy the planning as much as I do...
In the meantime, I'll keep reading... Thanks all!
Reverse loops are still an issue with DCC it's just that they can be dealt with electronically.
When my sons were little I pulled out the old Lionel stuff and set them up under the Christmas tree. They were fascinated. That led to a 4x8 Atlas track plan which held their interest for a few years. I think they each built one simple model but that never caught on. By the time I was ready to build a "proper" layout they had lost interest.
I hope you have better luck with having a hobby that you can enjoy with your children. Just don't be surprised if they lose interest.
Rick
Very interesting replies by others. If I may add my own comments.
I am not in favor of having a board and the operator/s standing on the outside. A solid board is unwieldy. Trains come off the rails at the most difficult of places. I prefer to have boards around the room with the operator/s in the middle. Boards are easier to build. Easier access to trains. Longer running track.
DC or DCC? With over 100 locomotives I have remained with DC, but that is a personal choice.
Building a layout with children? I probably wil be 'shot down' by others, but I will say it anyway. Build the layout the way you want it. Because most of the time it will be you operating it by yourself. Have a plan that is easy for one person to operate by themself (with sections that others can operate with you when there.) Why do I say this? Children will go and do other hobbies leaving you by yourself; coming back now and again.
Big locomotives, long cars, boxvans etc take up a lot of room. Think what you want to run. When the children are there they will be happy running what you like. If they want to run other items they will save up and buy their own.
I say all this because 'I have been there' with my son and now my grandchildren.
It is great just watching trains as a (now 7 year old or 5 year old grandson or (4 year old) granddaughter operates the controls. The timetable is forgotten. They have fun until the next time.
Then back to 'serious train running' by myself.
Whatever you do and choose, 'have fun'. Enjoy the journey. There is no race. Read and look at other layouts. Learn from others mistakes and ideas. Do not copy others (it doesn't work), adapt instead. It is a great hobby so long as you treat it as such. Remember Rule 1 -- It is your railroad.
Looking forward to seeing you progress.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
NorthBrit Have a plan that is easy for one person to operate by themself
This is good advice.
Having a layout you can just turn on by yourself and have fun is important to me.
My second layout required multiple operators, and getting people together was much harder than I expected. My excitement for running my layout before much scenery was complete was much greater than the group of people that I knew.
All of the rest of my layouts have been designed so I could enjoy them alone.
Seabass21My old Atlas books talk about the electrical issues with reversing loops, etc. Looks like that is no longer a problem with DCC.
As someone mentioned, it is still an issue but can be dealt with two ways. You can do a manual reverse loop with a toggle switch, just like model railroaders have on DC layouts for decades; it works for DCC also. However, there are relatively inexpensive devices that you can hook up to a section of track that on DCC will automatically do it without you needing to do anything.
Seabass21I must admit; I'm not the type of person that likes the idea of building a small (4x8) layout only to tear it down again for the "real" layout in a year or so. But I can certainly see the wisdom in doing this, especially to properly capture my kids attention right from the beginning.
One idea might to build the benchwork as two separate 2' by 8' free-standing sections, then connect the two with a couple of carriage bolts to make a 4' by 8'. Then you could build a small layout to test out DCC and such. Later, the 2' by 8' sections could be used as 'around the wall' benchwork on a larger layout, or to create an L-shaped switching layout, etc.
Your "old" Atlas book is still a wealth of information. Electrons have not changed, the way we manipulate them has.
hbgatsfReverse loops are still an issue with DCC it's just that they can be dealt with electronically.
As I posted,
jjdamnitYes, a lot has changed since your last foray into model railroading. But many things have stayed constant.
Seabass21The appeal of the old Atlas track plan books are very strong for someone like me
Check out the Atlas website, under the HO pull-down menu >Track>Code 100 or >Code 83 "Track Packages" for more ideas.
LastspikemikeCode 83 track is what you want. Using Code 100 (the standard for decades) really makes no difference to running and re-railing stuff.
The "Code" of the track referrs to the height of the rails in 0.001 of an inch. code 100 is 0.100-inches tall while code 83 is 0.083 inches tall.
Many modelers that are concerned with prototypical (realistic) appearance swear that code 100 doesn't look "right".
I use code 100 and the appearance doesn't affect me at all.
All major manufacturers make HO scale track and track components in both Codes 83 and 100.
There are also transition rail joiners and track sections to transition from one code to the other.
Keep us updated on your progress, keep the questions coming, and as always...
Seabass21Atlas plan books. My kids and I thought the 'Berkshire Valley Route' had everything we were looking for (mountains, river, turntable, etc...).
The Berkshire planand all the other Atlas plans throw in way too much track. The figure 8 is going to have a fairly sharp radius which just doesn't look right and may be problematic in running long cars.
I have never been a fan of sectional track and don't really like the various tracks that come with a plastic roadbed. However they have their fans and are convenient.
In planning your layout remember you can only reach a little over two feet to fix derailment and the like.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
One confusing thing, or at least potentially confusing, is that a lot of products you knew 30-40 years ago are still out there but now under different names. Mantua/Tyco for example has gone through several hands - it was bought by Model Power, then Model Power's train line was sold to Lionel. There are a lot of examples out there.
Main thing to remember is things haven't changed that much. The reason Atlas still makes track and MRC makes power packs etc., like decades back, is people still use them.
Seabass,
I have a few thoughts for you,
In the age of information overload Model railroading can seem overwhelming. The hobby has so many different niches and interests that you can quickly bog down over such simple things as choosing track or switches or just about anything!! Forums such as this one while they can be helpful at times, often compound the problem, as posters go off on tangents or down rabbit holes (guilty as charged)....
Observations on your situation:
1. Find a local person or persons willing to help you and offer advice. Find them through the hobby shop or the NMRA. They are out there.
2. Go on a layout tour with your sons (post pandemic of course). For now look up some layout tours on YouTube. Check out TSG Multimedia or NNGC channels for some great layouts. This will get everyone fired up.
2. The Atlas plans are pretty dated at this point but if one strikes your fancy, don’t think twice. Go buy the track and start building. Your sons will likely want to see trains run pretty quickly so make it simple.
3. If you can afford it - go DCC with sound. Don’t mess around with installing decoders in the beginning. Get a sound equipped loco for the kids to run...They’ll dig it for sure!!! They will likely have no problem with the tech aspects of DCC.
4. You can expand as you go and the kids will help you with it. You guys can stand around, looking at the layout, talking about what needs to changed and what will happen next. Some of my great memories of my dad were of the two of us doing exactly that.
5. I don’t need to tell you that your sons are growing fast and they may start losing interest soon, so get moving!!! It is truly a gift that they got excited about your oval of track - strike while the iron is hot!!!
Have fun with the project,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 Seabass, I have a few thoughts for you, In the age of information overload Model railroading can seem overwhelming. The hobby has so many different niches and interests that you can quickly bog down over such simple things as choosing track or switches or just about anything!! Forums such as this one while they can be helpful at times, often compound the problem, as posters go off on tangents or down rabbit holes (guilty as charged).... Observations on your situation: 1. Find a local person or persons willing to help you and offer advice. Find them through the hobby shop or the NMRA. They are out there. 2. Go on a layout tour with your sons (post pandemic of course). For now look up some layout tours on YouTube. Check out TSG Multimedia or NNGC channels for some great layouts. This will get everyone fired up. 2. The Atlas plans are pretty dated at this point but if one strikes your fancy, don’t think twice. Go buy the track and start building. Your sons will likely want to see trains run pretty quickly so make it simple. 3. If you can afford it - go DCC with sound. Don’t mess around with installing decoders in the beginning. Get a sound equipped loco for the kids to run...They’ll dig it for sure!!! They will likely have no problem with the tech aspects of DCC. 4. You can expand as you go and the kids will help you with it. You guys can stand around, looking at the layout, talking about what needs to changed and what will happen next. Some of my great memories of my dad were of the two of us doing exactly that. 5. I don’t need to tell you that your sons are growing fast and they may start losing interest soon, so get moving!!! It is truly a gift that they got excited about your oval of track - strike while the iron is hot!!! Have fun with the project, Guy
Very good information and well put. Good advice.I like your Avatar Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Based on my personal experience:
Skip DC -- forget the olde days. DCC and 2 wires and as many engines as you want running different speeds and directions. Literally that simple. Don't let the talk of "programming" the locos put you off. They'll run out of the box and if you want to run more than one you just need to change the loco's data address something the DCC systems do almost automatically.
DCC can be as simple as Bachmann EZ Command which is how I started off. This system can run along side DC on the same layout if you have DC locomotives on your roster. More robust systems can control more details in the locomotive but even the simple systems make the locos move and emit what sounds they have. I'm currently running the MRC Prodigy^2 Wireless controllers. No cords to trip over and following the trains around the layout is fun. The DCC decoder ("chip") in each locomotive is a tiny computer that knows who it it and only responds to commands intended for it.
I treat my layout like tropical fish most of the time. Turn it on and let it run. I can zone out if I want or watch TV. If I want to switch cars or pass trains it's easy although running more than one train is a challenge.
I'm using an Atlas track plan and bought all the trackage in a single kit. Didn't have to piece by piece anything.
-- Chuck
Hi there,
I have a copy of a free article which may help you decide what sort of operation you might like and easily adaptable to N scale as well as allowing you to "grow" your layout... if you send me a Private Message with your email address on it, I will send it on as well as a few links that you may find helpful...
It is for a 4x8 but expanded and freeformed to a 5x9 would make it even more of a railroad. No cost, no commercialism!
Regards from Australia
Trevor https://sites.google.com/view/stagnesrailway for your interest
Associate Editor, Rail Modeller Australia magazine www.railmodelleraustralia.com
This will be a repeat of what some others have said but sometimes reinforcement helps.
Seabass21 My last issue was April, 1990. I have now re-subscribed after nearly 30 years.
I still have my old Atlas "King Size Plan Book" and other Atlas plan books. My kids and I thought the 'Berkshire Valley Route' had everything we were looking for (mountains, river, turntable, etc...)....I question the wisdom of trying to build a layout that focuses on only Atlas track products.
Not to mention I'm now trying to understand DCC? Pretty sure that didn't exist 30 years ago.
does it make sense to invest time into an old Atlas track plan given all the developments that have happened in the last 30 years? Or are there newer books that have good track plans? I have bought a few, but none of the ones that I have purchased are as thorough as the old Atlas plan books (why is that?...
Any ideas for me out there?
HI there,
Have sent you a private message re emailing the article to you
Cheers from Australia
Trevor