Track Layout Specs

[PGWolfe]

I am getting back into this hobby after being away for decades. I'm sure that things have changed drastically since then  

I will be creating a HO layout that will be fixed to my walls. It will be one complete loop and only a complete loop.  My questions:

1) is there a maximum amount of track (in feet) that a single transformer can power?

2) has anyone seen wall brackets for what I am attempting to do?

3) what kind of material should I use to support the track?  I have cork, but obviously that is not going to be stiff enough. 

4) is there a moder priced wireless controlled transformer (controlled through an app)?

Thanks. 

[NVSRR]

Hi 
pGwolfe

i will answer oit of order

2. Wall brackets are easy to find.  sizes from 2 foot to 6 inches and hardwares stores might be able to get bigger sizes. 

4. All the dcc systems are about the same and most of the handheld throttles that come with them do have a way to woreless remote them. Or the systems have a wireless option.  

1. That one is based more on if you use sectional track or flex track and if the joints are soldered and engine numbers.  And the current draw of each.   Soldering the joints helps as each joint is a point of resistance. So the soldering removes that resistance.    Hard to give an idea with out knowing more about your planned operation.  

3 not sure why cork wouldn't be stiff enough.   It is the normal standard.     I use something called easy Matt. Which is a floor underlayment and sound barrier.   Works good for that.  

shane

[woodone]

Shane, I think the OP was talking about what would support the cork.

What would depend on how far apart the bracing is? 3/8 ply would work  it the braces were 12 to 16 inches on center- 16 to 24 on center it better be 1/2 inch or better. Then there is ridged foam. I don't have any ideas on that.

[UNCLEBUTCH]

[quote user="PGWolfe"]2) has anyone seen wall brackets for what I am attempting to do? 3) what kind of material should I use to support the track? I have cork, but obviously that is not going to be stiff enough[

 Any kind of shelf bracket would work,depending on how wide your shelf is.

 I'm assumeing your refering to the shelf itself ?  If so any thing that will span the brackets and remain level.

 Lets say you want a 8in self,and you mount the brackets at 4ft each.

You could use a 1X8, or 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4 plywood, or 2in foam.

Your only supporting a few pounds of plastic .

Have you come up with a way to handle the door way?

[BigDaddy]

PGWolfe

1) is there a maximum amount of track (in feet) that a single transformer can power?

4) is there a moder priced wireless controlled transformer (controlled through an app)?

I think PG is asking about DC power, not DCC.  There are and have always been DC modelers with quite large layouts.  The voltage drop for a long run in DCC is less of a concern in DC. 

I also think he is looking for a phone app to run his trains.  I know they exist, but I can't an useful answer to that question either.

If it is just a loop around the room, somehow you are going to deal with a doorway.

Also, just a loop with no switching doesn't sound like it will hold you interest very long

[doctorwayne]

Lastspikemike

I don't think the OP is committed to DC or DCC. The reference to "wireless" is a giveaway,

What about his reference to a transformer?  Wireless to me suggests "dead rail", as I'm currently building such a locomotive for a friend.

Lastspikemike

Frankly you'd have to be nuts to choose DC over DCC if you're just now getting back into this hobby.

That sounds like a pretty large assumption:  if he's been out of the hobby for years, perhaps he wants something that's familiar with what he had in the past.  DCC on a single loop seems mostly pointless when a wind-up train can run on a single loop.

Wayne

[richhotrain]

doctorwayne

 

Lastspikemike

Frankly you'd have to be nuts to choose DC over DCC if you're just now getting back into this hobby. 

That sounds like a pretty large assumption:  if he's been out of the hobby for years, perhaps he wants something that's familiar with what he had in the past.  DCC on a single loop seems mostly pointless when a wind-up train can run on a single loop.

Wayne 

One ought to choose his words more carefully than simply saying, you'd be nuts to to choose DC over DCC. Many guys still get into the hobby by starting out in DC, especially as you say, Wayne, if the first layout is something like a simple loop and a single locomotive. That, in fact, is how I started out. A lot less expensive, a lot less complicated, and a lower learning curve.

Rich

[selector]

Lastspikemike

I don't think the OP is committed to DC or DCC. The reference to "wireless" is a giveaway,

Frankly you'd have to be nuts to choose DC over DCC if you're  just now getting back into this  hobby. 

As for actual layout advice the OP isn't there yet. 

 

I'd like to offer you some advice:

When you compose a reply to someone on a forum, don't imagine you're in court or that you're with friends, or with people for whom you have little regard.

Think, "O wad some Power the giftie gie us.."

The safest way to be informed (and relevant) is to SEEK information...or clarification.  Instead of assuming that you have all the necessary facts, why not elicit them first?

[selector]

richhotrain

 

 

... That, in fact, is how I started out. A lot less expensive, a lot less complicated, and a lower learning curve.

 

Rich

 

Agreed. Simpler, faster, and since it's close to Christmas and people are about to get more severely constrained over socializing and unnecessary movement, a lot more FUN.  Later, when he wants, he can look into DCC.  He's already found the forum, has read the sub-headings, and knows there's such a thing as DCC.  Surely he'll take a look?

[SeeYou190]

Lastspikemike

Frankly you'd have to be nuts to choose DC over DCC if you're  just now getting back into this  hobby. 

Wow, just plain insulting groups of people, now I see...

Also, another thread started by a newcomer has degenerated into a commentary on your tendency to ruffle feathers.

This is a shame. We need new people here, and no one comes here to see this type of discussion. This is not the type of group that thrives on controversy and discourse. Please take Selector's offered advice.

If someone is comfortable with DC, can install it and troubleshoot it with no issues, and does not think sounds adds anything to their layout experience... well, that is not a sign of mental instability.

There are signs of mental instability that are much easier to identify.

-Kevin

[BigDaddy]

The OP has had a grand total of 2 posts, give him a break.  One was about track coming apart on an under the Christmas tree layout and this one. 

We know he has been out of the hobby for decades That means at least 2, maybe more.  We don't know what he knows and doesn't know.  He doesn't know what he doesn't know.  Decades ago there were transformers but no dead rail, no blue tooth and no wifi.

What we know about his proposed layout sounds pretty plain jane, but we really haven't given him a chance to flesh this out.  He could be more operationally oriented than his post implied, or he may be building a layout for a couple of very small grandchildren and he doesn't need sound and rivet quality rolling stock.

If nobody said so on his 1st post, to the forum.  Your posts will be delayed by moderation for a bit.  People here really do want to help.

[richhotrain]

BigDaddy

The OP has had a grand total of 2 posts, give him a break.  

Henry, I don't believe that the criticism was aimed at the OP.

Rich

[SeeYou190]

BigDaddy

If nobody said so on his 1st post, to the forum.  Your posts will be delayed by moderation for a bit.  People here really do want to help.

PGWolfe:

Yes...  to the Model Railroader Forums. I hope to see you around.

-Kevin

[Doughless]

1.  Not really.  If you're gong around the walls of a room...I assume its not a double garage or a barn....one "good quality" transformer should be enough.

4.  A transformer is associated with DC control.  I don't believe there is a wireless controller for DC being produced.  A few of us use and have used a wireless DC throttle made by AristoCraft.  I used to have one for years when the layout was DC, and its a great way to add wireless control to your DC transformer powered layout.  You can probably find some used on ebay for a reasonable price.

4a.  But DCC offers wireless control and command.  I currnetly use the NCE Power Cab with wireless control.  Its wonderful, but pricey.

And if you want to walk with your train around the room, wireless is the way to go, no doubt about it.

2. Yes.  Common wall brackets work fine.  With only wanting a loop, you probably only need a shelf 12 inches deep, and brackets to support that shallow of a shelf are plentiful and cheap.

3. Plywood.  Then put cork or foam roadbed on the plywood to support the track....if you want that raised realistic profile.  You could simply lay the track directly on the plywood.  Many people do not like that flat look though.

I would use 1x2 or 1x3 glued and finish nailed on their edges to the plywood, giving the sag-able plywood rigid spines along its length.  That way, you can increase the space between brackets and use less of them and invade the wall less. 

Edit:  DC is not outated.  Afterall, the DC motor that makes the train move is still powered by DC current as it has always been. 

With DCC, there is simply a generator of a digital signal that gets coded then decoded before it lets DC power reach the motor.  DCC provides a digitally coded signal in case you want the signal to control more than one train simultaneously or to command digital features, like onboard sound.  That's really all DCC does, in the big picture of things.

If you want to power one train around a loop, in silence, a $40 DC Transformer and a $50 used AristoCraft Train Engineer or Basic Train Engineer for maybe $60 is a cheaper way to get wireless than DCC.  Good quality stuff too.

While DCC starter systems are competitively priced at nearly $150, they are stationary (or a really long tethered cord).  Wireless DCC is about 5 bills.

This is the Basic Train Engineer.  Only controls one train.  If you want a loop around the room, to control one silent DC only powered train, this is the only wireless option I know of short of building your own.  They wire in between the transformer and track.  Used one should cost about 50 bucks.

[csxns]

Lastspikemike

investing in out of date technology

? here why do they still sell it.

[SeeYou190]

Lastspikemike

The question is why do people  keep buying it?

Because for many people, it is the right choice.

We do not all live in your one-size-fits-all world.

I guess you would want me to do major surgery on over a dozen brass locomotives to install expensive decoders that add nothing to my enjoyment of the hobby.

-Kevin

[doctorwayne]

Lastspikemike

The question is why do people keep buying it?

Are you saying that you're not sharp enough to know?

Lastspikemike

The question asked by the OP was more along the lines of "how should I get started".

That's true, so I suppose that we should agree that your reply was the only valid one?

I find your attitude very out-of-step with the usual respectful decorum exhibited by most forum Members, and because of that will, from now on, refrain from replying to threads where you choose pontificate ad nauseam to those of us somehow out of step with your take on how things should be done.

Wayne

[kasskaboose]

So sad that this thread moves from an effort to help a newbie to a food fight bewteen DC and DCC. 

To the OP:  Sorry that you had to witness such a childish argument.  The debate between DC and DCC can get passionate.  I started with DC and switched to DCC. The former was great.  DCC provided what I wanted/needed.  Yes, there are was a huge fear factor to overcome. I'm glad it worked out and once I understand DCC, providing the necessary patience and due diiligence is key to flawless operations.

[rrebell]

Lastspikemike

 

 

selector

 

 

Lastspikemike

I don't think the OP is committed to DC or DCC. The reference to "wireless" is a giveaway,

Frankly you'd have to be nuts to choose DC over DCC if you're  just now getting back into this  hobby. 

As for actual layout advice the OP isn't there yet. 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to offer you some advice:

When you compose a reply to someone on a forum, don't imagine you're in court or that you're with friends, or with people for whom you have little regard.

Think, "O wad some Power the giftie gie us.."

The safest way to be informed (and relevant) is to SEEK information...or clarification.  Instead of assuming that you have all the necessary facts, why not elicit them first?

 

 

 

 

Having just gone through exactly the thought process expressed by the OP I expressed my opinion. If I wish to emphasize that starting with a DC setup today would be a huge mistake why is that such a problem for the wisemen?

The marginal cost of starting out with DCC over acquiring a DC setup is just too small to make starting out in DC at all sensible. Compare that to the cost of changing if you for some very strange reason dislike what DCC does for you and yes, you'd be crazy to start with DC.  

Then the DC guys all get their feathers ruffled along with the guardians of the faith that keep new members from entering the conversation. My opinion was not directed at committed DC guys (note the double entendre by way of rejoinder) as should be obvious. 

There's a huge difference between dumping an elaborate DC system and upgrading to DCC after dropping that sunk cost and not incurring the sunk cost to begin with.

If you're just getting back in or starting fresh then DCC is not more expensive, far simpler to wire than DC, even for just one locomotive, and pretty much seamless now until you start delving into changing CV's which remains something of a black art to normal people. 

Sure, don't warn people not to make the big mistake of investing in out of date technology if that's your opinion. It's not mine. I did build a new DC layout first but only  to run legacy equipment. Unless DC really turns your crank, don't buy into it. 

 

DC can be the way to go for some, only reason I switched was sound.

[SeeYou190]

Lastspikemike

Rhetorical.  Maybe try looking that up. It may shorten future threads. 

I have grown completely worn of your childish baiting like this.

I am going to the high road with Doctor Wayne in matters concerning your comments.

Hopefully you improve over time.

doctorwayne

From now on, refrain from replying to threads where you choose pontificate ad nauseam to those of us somehow out of step with your take on how things should be done.

100%

-Kevin

[richhotrain]

kasskaboose

So sad that this thread moves from an effort to help a newbie to a food fight bewteen DC and DCC. 

To the OP:  Sorry that you had to witness such a childish argument.  The debate between DC and DCC can get passionate.  

We all hear you, but you are a little late to the game on this thread.

Unforunately it went off the rails on Tuesday due to a misunderstanding by one forum member over the OP's question about the maximum amount of track, measured in feet, that a single "transformer" can power and whether there is a moderately priced wireless controller that can be controlled by an app.

Although those two questions appeared to be directed to a DC powered layout, the misunderstanding arose over whether the OP was referring to DC or DCC. This led to a fairly inflammatory series of responses by one forum member directed at those who are returning to the hobby after a long hiatus if they choose DC over DCC. At that point, all hope was lost for a return to the original topic.

Rich

[Doughless]

rrebell

  

Having just gone through exactly the thought process expressed by the OP I expressed my opinion. If I wish to emphasize that starting with a DC setup today would be a huge mistake why is that such a problem for the wisemen?

The marginal cost of starting out with DCC over acquiring a DC setup is just too small to make starting out in DC at all sensible. Compare that to the cost of changing if you for some very strange reason dislike what DCC does for you and yes, you'd be crazy to start with DC.  

Then the DC guys all get their feathers ruffled along with the guardians of the faith that keep new members from entering the conversation. My opinion was not directed at committed DC guys (note the double entendre by way of rejoinder) as should be obvious. 

There's a huge difference between dumping an elaborate DC system and upgrading to DCC after dropping that sunk cost and not incurring the sunk cost to begin with.

If you're just getting back in or starting fresh then DCC is not more expensive, far simpler to wire than DC, even for just one locomotive, and pretty much seamless now until you start delving into changing CV's which remains something of a black art to normal people. 

Sure, don't warn people not to make the big mistake of investing in out of date technology if that's your opinion. It's not mine. I did build a new DC layout first but only  to run legacy equipment. Unless DC really turns your crank, don't buy into it. 

 

 

 

 

DC can be the way to go for some, only reason I switched was sound.

 

 

In defense of Mike, what he says is no different than parroting what many have said and or think.  The term "starting out" with DC, then ...."advancing?" into DCC.

DCC is nothing more than a digital signal that adds features to train operations, if you want those features in the first place.  Like so many things "advancing" in the digital world, its the add-on features that drives the desire, at least I hope, and not just the simple migration of technology to something new. 

My car has the ability to vibrate the steering wheel if I migrate over the lane witout signaling.  If you want that feature, the added digital capability allows that feature to exist.  If you don't wan this feature, maybe driving a nicely restored 1975 Datsun 260z is a better option for you than buying a bunch of silly features you don't need.

Nobody buys technology just for technology's sake, at least I wouldn't think so.

In the model train world, I guess I'm still starting out.  I started with a 4x8 loop, DC transformer, and some spurs to switch.  I later put a hole in that plan and expanded it to a bedroom sized layout, then a 29 x 13 size layout, and now I'm building a 28 x 18 U shaped layout.

If it wasn't for the feature of onboard sound (okay, flashing ditchlights are pretty cool), I'd still be using the RailPower 1300 power pack and orange Basic Train Engineer pictured above.  So I guess I've been "starting out" for about 40 years now.

Maybe OP will always have a simple loop-ish of track and no desire to complicate up the hobby just because.

[selector]

This could have been avoided in a couple of ways:

a. Inquire if the person is aware of several options, even naming them, and if the answer is no, offer to provide information; and

b. Not calling people who elect to return to the hobby using familiar devices and materails 'nuts'.  It isn't a way to be held in high regard generally.

[Doughless]

The OPs issue isn't really about DC or DCC is it?  We just read something, then it triggered the usual debate.

I read OPs desires to be centered more around WIRELESS control, probably used the word "transformer" because he doesn't know what else to call it these days.

Wants the throttle on his phone, possibly.

So why can't we at least argue about something the OP cares about, not some debate over DC and DCC where most of the users probably have stationary systems anyway.

So, OP can spend about $800 for a NCE wireless system.  Or if he knows what he's doing, can buy similar components and assemble the system himself for maybe $650.  Or he can go DC and use the Train Engineer system for about $100, if he can find one.

Anybody got any ideas about what OP need to do to be able to use his phone as a throttle...starting from scratch?

[NorthBrit]

Is the OP still here?

 

David

[BigDaddy]

At best maybe the OP decided to read up on DCC.  At worst, we will never hear from him again.  Too bad he didn't get back to us earlier with what he was trying to accomplish, before the thread went down hill.

[richhotrain]

Douglas, you have done an excellent job of framing the debate and bringing this thread back to normal. But, I will remind everyone that is was never about DC versus DCC. It was the way in which it was presented by one forum member who couldn't take No for an answer. 

As a reminder, here are the OP's original 4 questions.

 My questions:

1) is there a maximum amount of track (in feet) that a single transformer can power?

2) has anyone seen wall brackets for what I am attempting to do?

3) what kind of material should I use to support the track?  I have cork, but obviously that is not going to be stiff enough. 

4) is there a moder priced wireless controlled transformer (controlled through an app)?

[danno54]

1. & 4. Most starter dcc sets offer plenty of power for your use and have IR capability for wireless running.

2. Check-out the shelving section at HD or Lowes for brackets. Should be plenty strong enough spaced every other stud. These would look nicer than making your own out of plywood.

3. If I'm supporting the layout with cantilevered wall brackets I'm using 2" styrofoam for my surface to save weight.

It sounds like you plan an around-the-room shelf layout. As shelf is probably no deeper than say 18" I'd keep all my turnouts manual keeping things simple. You can cut your cork into strips to use for roadbed.

Just my two cents. I've thought of doing the exact same thing.

[Doughless]

danno54

1. & 4. Most starter dcc sets offer plenty of power for your use and have IR capability for wireless running.

 

Just to point out, they have the capability for wireless but are not wireless out of the box without being modified or buying the proper auxilliary pieces to run it wireless.  Those pieces about double the cost of the normal starter set, IIRC.

OP could also get a long tethered cord depending upon how large his space was and not minding the cord touching the floor as he moves about.  This works for NCE because NCE puts the command station on the throttle, so to speak.

[richhotrain]

Doughless

OP could also get a long tethered cord depending upon how large his space was and not minding the cord touching the floor as he moves about.  This works for NCE because NCE puts the command station on the throttle, so to speak. 

That would be true for the PowerCab. On the other hand, the command station is a large box in the NCE PH-Pro, so the ProCab would not have a command station on the throttle. Even so, the OP could still use a long tethered cord as he moves about. 

Rich