I was looking at some B&W photos of E.L. Moore's 4' x 6' HO layout, and was kind of amazed at how much he fit into that space without making it look like a spaghetti bowl.
I then saw a sketch of the layout over the square footage blocks. He obviously used some 15" radius track, but in some sections, it looks like he used a radius that was even more severe than 15".
Did they make HO track that was less than 15", or would he have used flex track?
Also, the pictures that I saw show the old standby Mantua 0-4-0 shifter with sloped tender. That may have been the only engine he could have run with such sharp curves.
Flex track or hand laid. Nobody manufactures less than 18. The 0-4-0 isn't the only loco that could be run. An 0-6-0 with a blind driver would work. ge 44, 45, 70 tons. Along with Plymouth's. And such critters. If he went to traction then anything is possible. Shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
I believe Atlas sells 15" curved track. Most logging locos would do fine, as well as 4-4-0s.
Simon
Back when E. L. moore was active in the late 40's houses were much much smaller then today and 18" curves were considered luxurious. I remember as a child looking in a hobby shop window at Mantua engine kits. Most were 0-4-0 variations. There was also an 0-4-0 camelback. 4'x6' was a massive layoutfor the era.
Thanks all.
I found an some old literature on HO seeker a reference to "minimum radius required - 12"." I know they make 15" radius. I wonder if some manufacturers made 12" radius at that time.
Have to look in old issues, but I beleive 12" was available in sectional track for a while. I don't think it lasted long, not much could run on it.
We definitely had Atlas 15" sectional track in our innermost loop, generally reserved for the trolley but the Tyco 0-4- and the little American Flyer HO industrial diesel could also handle it, even with a couple of cars (truck mounted couplers of course). The trolley was a Tyco that came in a set that had simulated street track with an 8" radius. I later built a layout using that for my street and then ran some flex track for the more rural part of the line - I cirved it as sharp as I could wothout kinking, it was old fiber tie flex track, not modern plastic stuff. Not rue what the resulting radius was, but it couldn't have been more than 3 or 4 inches. There was a slight kink in the sharpest part, but the trolley handled it if I didn't go too fast. Nothing else could run on this track.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
When I was a kid, that was one of the pikes that I looked at for hours as it appeared in Westcott's book (HO Primer). It's funny how we could focus on just a handfull of pictures before the age of the Internet... Anyway, it sure looked way bigger than what it was, at least according to this source:
https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2014/04/e-l-moores-legacy-in-21th-century_23.html
The actual track plan was never published, according to the author. I wonder if that's correct or not. Anyway, the author drew a plan of what he thinks the track plan could have been. Looking at his plan, it does in fact look like some curves would be 12". I guess that's how miracles happen... From what I can see, stretching it by two feet on the "East" side would probably make 15" curves fit.
I still have that little Atas layout blueprints softcover booklet that my Dad got for my older brother in the early 1960s. Some of those 4' x 6' are still pretty cool - especially if you are running trains from that era.
Although flex track and sectional HO track were available in the early 1950's (although flextrack would be a new item), it would be extremely rare for an experienced model railroader to use either. Even when I started in the hobby in the 1970's, sectional track was just for kid's starter sets, and flextrack was for your first or maybe second layout. "Real" model railroaders handlaid all their track, including turnouts...and only had buildings and cars made from wood kits or scratchbuilt, no "shake the box" plastic kits.
I think John Allen's first G&D from the late forties had 14"R curves. Many layouts before Kadees used variations of 'hook and loop' couplers which could allow equipment to stay coupled around very sharp curves.
BTW currently the tightest HO curve for Kato Unitrack is 14-9/16", and I think Walthers carries 14"R curved sectional track made by one of the German or Austrian makers(?)
Found this info online:
wjstix...and only had buildings and cars made from wood kits or scratchbuilt, no "shake the box" plastic kits.
No wonder i was able to get that Faller Lake House for so cheap! It is arguably the most beautiful piece of HO scenery that I own, plastic or not.
Hello All,
NVSRRNobody manufactures less than 18(-inch radius).
On my 4'x8' pike, I use Atlas 15-inch sectional track and PECO #2 turnouts. Both readily available.
I also use 18- and 22-inch sectional track and Atlas Snap Switches.
The "mainline" curves are asymmetrical. One-quarter of the curve is 15-inch sectional and the other quarter is 18-inch.
On the curved 3% grade, I used 22-inch and 18-inch sectional track for another asymmetrical curve.
I rearranged the track plan to add an easement at the base of the curved grade to eliminate derailments.
A spiral trestle (helix) is comprised of 15-inch sectional track too.
The #2 turnouts are used for the wye and the coal unloading and loading sidings.
I DIY-ed straight sectional track to flex track and modified a PECO curved turnout to bypass an unintended "S" curve.
NVSRRThe 0-4-0 isn't the only loco that could be run. An 0-6-0 with a blind driver would work. ge 44, 45, 70 tons. Along with Plymouth's. And such critters.
GP40s make up a 4-unit consist that has no problem negotiating the asymmetrical mainline.
A 3-unit consist of 2 GP30s and a GP30-B successfully pulls 8 loaded Tyco 34-foot operating hoppers up the 3% grade.
An "Olde Tyme" excursion train pulled by a USRA 0-6-0 negotiates the same grade with a 0-4-0 Side Tank Porter as a helper for the 42-foot RPO, 3 passenger cars, and a converted gondola for passenger use, followed by a bobber caboose. None with blind drivers.
At the unloading shed- -at the top of the 3% grade- -a Plymouth ML-8 critter pulls the empty 34-foot hoppers out of the unloading shed for the shuttle, lead by a single GP30, down the spiral trestle back to the mainline.
For switching duties, GE 44- and 70-tonners are used.
A single GP38-2 pulls four 34-foot operating hoppers to an unloading siding that supplies rock dust to line the coal mines.
Yes, I have attempted to run 6-axle diesels- -but quite frankly they look out of place and comical.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
There are so, so many resources available now for model railroaders. It is very humbling to look back at the work of these HO pioneers and see what they were able to do with what they had at the time.
I've been in model railroading since 1955 and don't recall any HO pre-fab track below Atlas 15". E.L. Moore probably hand laid his track which was very common back in those days especially with a talented man like him. He was an amazing craftsman for the time and contributed a lot of buildings. I think he was more commonly found in RMC than MR.
oldline1
Thank you for linking to my blog. A few years back a reader contacted me and generously shared a photo of a postcard that E. L. Moore sent him. It had a drawing of the trackplan of his Elizabeth Valley RR on it: https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2017/03/found-elizabeth-valley-railroad.html The image finally settled a long standing discussion about the layout's configuration. I think the layout was started in the early 1950s. You can see a photo of it part way through construction here: https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-holy-grail-of-e-l-moore-photos-has.html That photo gives some idea of the type of track used.
A few years back I started on building an N scale replica of the Elizabeth Valley RR. It's rather a tricky track plan to wire as it's basically built around a two reversing loops folded over each other. You can see some construction photos and a short video of the track being tested here: https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2017/12/evrr-upper-loop-test-run.html . Work on the layout has been stalled for sometime, although all related posts are found here: https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/search/label/EVRR
http://www.30squaresofontario.blogspot.ca/
We should be thanking you for taking the time to do the reasearch and write the blog. We need more of these to learn from the master railroaders of the past. Hopefully you will find the time to complete your replica.
I do like to read about layouts by Master Railroaders. Even if the layouts are not of my area or region, their trials and tribulations are as common now as they were then. So much can be learned.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
My P2K switchers and Bachmann ten wheeler do fine on 15" radius, but my Bachmann 3 truck Shay, even though it's a logger, derails because the tender corner hits the back of the engine and it is not adjustable, it's permanently attached. -Rob
A favorite blog is now giving FREE an ebook about the famous modeler E. L. Moore. It's downloadable and features stories and color photos of ELM's work from the 60s-80s...including his famous 6x4 Elizabeth Valley RR. Well worth looking into! https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2023/03/the-e-l-moore-ebook-is-doneand-its-free.html
Thanks for mentioning my eBook about E. L. Moore. It's been 10 years in the making, and I hope it helps to keep his work alive in the minds, and workbenches, of model makers.
My layout is a 4x6. It works great and I will add 15 inch radius soon. So far I have 18 inch radius so my gevo runs good. I don't understand why people say 18 inch radius is the minimum everything I have has no problem on 18 inch radius.
-bmtrainmaster
Just to fill in a blank or two on the original discussion on this thread, Atlas 15" radius sectional track was surprisingly common particularly back when HO was still valued for being so small. But there was smaller radius track at the time -- I think Fleischmann had 14" sectional track (more likely it was some metric dimension) for regular DC two rail, and I think Maerklin had something that tight or even tighter. And Tru Scale offered wood roadbed components in 14" and 16" radius sizes, in addition to larger radius increments up to 36". It was marketed to those who wanted to lay fiber tie flex track). But they offered the same sizes in their "self gauging" roadbed which had ties milled into the roadbed with milled out areas for the track to be spiked in place -- a sort of hybrid form of hand laid track.
Moore by the way had another little layout that was featured in Railroad Model Craftsman but not as I recall in MR: it was N gauge and featured a mix of N scale and HOn 2 1/2. E L Moore deserves to be remembered and because he made rather than bought so many elements of of his structure projects, the articles he wrote for MR and RMC are just as useful today as when written. One oddity of our hobby is that for some reason there tends to be a backlash against prolific writers. Some of this was discussed recently in the threads about Malcolm Furlow's death, and both RMC and MR would get complaints about "too much John Allen" when the only recent John Allen was in the OTHER magazine! Well E L Moore had his inevitable backlash too, and I remember a letter to the editor proposing to establish a "Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society." The person who proposed this wrote a followup letter many months later rather sheepishly reporting that only one person had written him to join the Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society --- and that person was E L Moore! Now that's a character ya gotta love.
Dave Nelson
dknelson -------[- "Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society." The person who proposed this wrote a followup letter many months later rather sheepishly reporting that only one person had written him to join the Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society --- and that person was E L Moore! Now that's a character ya gotta love. Dave Nelson
-------[- "Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society." The person who proposed this wrote a followup letter many months later rather sheepishly reporting that only one person had written him to join the Help Stamp Out E L Moore Society --- and that person was E L Moore! Now that's a character ya gotta love.
ndbprrBack when E. L. moore was active in the late 40's houses were much much smaller then today
Actually it was the post-WW2 houses that were smaller, houses built before that tended to be much larger. It's been said part of the reason for the switch to HO from O was because of the smaller houses. BTW later N scale was sometimes touted as being for "apartment dwellers" who wanted a home layout.
jdlowe Thanks for mentioning my eBook about E. L. Moore. It's been 10 years in the making, and I hope it helps to keep his work alive in the minds, and workbenches, of model makers.
Fantastic job with that. Thank You
Jim
You're right, that layout of ELM's was his Enskale and Hoentee that appeared as a 3-part construction article in the October, November and December '68 issues of Railroad Model Craftsman. It was a small, 30" x 30" layout that incorporated some TT scale buildings as well as the scales you mentioned. Some unpublished background material on that layout can be found here:
https://30squaresofontario.blogspot.com/2017/01/e-l-moore-on-constructing-enskale.html
One interesting offshoot from that project was that when Kalmbach got wind of ELM doing the series, they offered him the chance to write a book on how to get started in N scale. It was to be a book along the lines of their HO Primer. ELM turned down the offer saying he wasn't that skilled in the electrical aspects of layout construction, and that he didn't like to work to schedules :-)
The eBook doesn't include much material on ELM's layouts because there still appears to be a lot of missing information about them. Maybe more will turn up in the years to come.
Soo Line fan Thanks for the kind words! jdlowe Thanks for mentioning my eBook about E. L. Moore. It's been 10 years in the making, and I hope it helps to keep his work alive in the minds, and workbenches, of model makers. Fantastic job with that. Thank You
Thanks for the kind words!