1) To hold the cheap white styrofoam--the kind that makes little white balls when you cut it--to plywood?
2) To hold cork to white styrofoam?
3) To hold track to cork?
I was going to use Elmers for 1 & 2 and acrylic latex caulk for #3.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I'd skip the foam, unless you've some need of it. The cork can be cemented to plywood using white glue, yellow carpenter's glue, or contact cement.
Contact cement will also affix the track to the cork, or you could also use track nails instead.
I get the feeling I've missed something here, though.
Wayne
SpaceMouse 1) To hold the cheap white styrofoam--the kind that makes little white balls when you cut it--to plywood?
White or yellow glue should do fine, provided it is left to dry for at least a full day, maybe longer, before you stress it laterally, or flex the sub-surface and make the almost dry glue let the foam tear away from the sub-surface material.
SpaceMouse 2) To hold cork to white styrofoam?
I would use the DAP Alex Plus with silicone here. I found, at least locally, and 8 years ago, that the 'dries clear' variety holds better than their white version. I'd otherwise use yellow glue, my go-to, but again, let it cure! Pinning roadbed to friable styrofoam, the beaded kind, might not be a very rewarding experience, and you'll need to do that while the adhesive, whichever kind you use, sets up.
SpaceMouse 3) To hold track to cork? I was going to use Elmers for 1 & 2 and acrylic latex caulk for #3.
Track to cork, now two layouts in a row for me, was DAP Alex Plus with Silicone, 'clear'.
Cheap latex caulk should do it all, be sure it's foam compatable.
Good luck,
Richard
cowmanCheap latex caulk should do it all, be sure it's foam compatable. Good luck, Richard
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Indeed, the caulk should work for it all. But yeah, I'd avoid using a layer of the white messy foam. If you want something you can carve ditches into, even in your area you can probably get pink, blue, or green in the thinner sections. Might be tough finding the 2" stuff in warmer areas, but the thinner stuff is used for more than just absolute insulating value.
Foam to plywood is the one that will take a significant dry time, as it's tough to get air in to dry the glue. Foam to foam is even worse since neither surface is porous. When I built my last layout with 2 layers of 2" foam, it took a week for the second layer of foam to be stuck on. For building up pieces of foam on foam for scenery - hot glue seems to work well. At last year's Reading Modeler's Meet, a guy gave a scenery demo clinic and built a diorama with foam and hot glue in the course of a 1 hour clinic - not even really waiting for the hot glue to fully set, and yet it still stayed together
Using caulk to glue down the cork and then also glue the track to the cork may in some way contribute to keeping the noise down - no solid setting adhesive, and no nails linking one layer to the other. And no, adding ballast did not change that, at least not using my mix of glue and alcohol instead of water - the hard water here prevents even the "few drops of dish soap" trick from working, and since I had the alcohol (70% - so there is still 30% water), I just mixed the glue with that - the alcohol seems to react with the PVA glue (white Elmer's) and when it dries it is kind of rubbery instead of the typical solid mass of a dried puddle of Elmer's.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A few considerations for these adhesives:
Does the bond have to be 'stronger' than the substrates, and if so by how much? Does the area of the bond (or penetration of glue into the substrate) affect the strength of the result?
Does the bond have to be functionally waterproof, or resistant to humidity changes?
Does the bond need to be flexible?
Is the bond subjected to significant shear as well as 'separation' force?
Your condition #2, Styrofoam to harder material like benchwork, is of interest here because the surface is irregular and the bond strength limited to the internal strength of the foam. Here you need a glue that 'wets' the surface effectively and has enough elasticity not to progressively pop beads on the surface loose or start cracks into the foam that lead to effective spalling. Note the characteristics attributed to Elmer's thinned with alcohol in this respect...
doctorwayneI get the feeling I've missed something here, though. Wayne
Cheep matters but I agree with Randy, I would avoid white foam, even if it were free.
I used sheet cork, Elmers glue and insulation foam for my yard. I covered it with wax paper and weighted the cork, because Elmers glue bleeds through the foam. I had some areas where the cork didn't stick, maybe because there was an air bubble or inadequate weight. A syringe, needle and more dilute white glue fixed those areas.
Ken Patterson has found that Liquid Nails eats into the foam. He uses Gorrilla Glue, which needs water added or Great Foam spray insulation foam to stick foam to foam, or in the case of Gorrilla glue, foam to wood, as well.
Both EXPAND. The Great Foam expands Greatly, more than you would think possible.
Do not use silicon caulk that has frozen over winter in the garage. It never sets up.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My whole layout is foam on top of 1x4's, never a problem. Use caulk for everything, white for 1 and 2 and clear for 3, all acylic. Be careful on three to use enough caulk but not too much so that it will hold but not sqish up .
On my first foam layout, I did indeed just build a 1x4 frame and glue the foam to it, no plywood. I used yellow glue for that, then used caulk to glue the roadbed to the foam and track to the roadbed.
Kind of think I used yellow glue to attach the first latyer of foam to the plywood on my last one, then caulk to glue the two sheets of foam together.
Because my methods are not typical, and do not include foam........ I am almost reluctant to reply.
But here goes,
Lastpikemike suggested our benchwork is over built - maybe, maybe not. For me benchwork needs to support me, all 230 lbs worth. Because I build layouts with deep scenes, and deep benchwork, 3-4 feet deep typically, sometimes deeper. The new layout will have an urban scene that will vary from 5' deep to 9' deep in a corner. It will havea rear aisle/hatches for access.
So the materials on top the bench work need to support me. That leaves out foam.
I need to be able to lean on the bench work, pop up thru access hatches, support temperary work platforms without damaging the substrate of the layout.
3/4" plywood works nicely. So does hard shell scenery supported by wood blocks.
I lay track on homasote roadbed or wood roadbed. In fact, in 53 years I have never built a layout for myself using cork roadbed......
Most recently I install that homasote roadbed or wood roadbed with a pneumatic brad nailer. It is fast and accurate, at least for me since it is a tool I use almost daily.
For yard and such, large sheets of homasote.
I glue flex track to my wood or homasote roadbed with adhesive caulk. Not Alex or other "painters caulk".
I work in the constructon trades, there are good reasons why they sell more than one kind of caulk.......
I use adhesive caulk, like PolySeamSeal or Phenoseal. It is an adhesive, it takes a tack quickly, it is strong. It is not intended for those of you who plan to reuse track.
I do not glue down turnouts, they get a few track nails, but generally are held in place by the track around them.
Just a side note, in my daily work restoring houses, which does include painting, we don't use any kind of caulk with silicone........ the two products listed above are far superior to any kind of silicone product for showers, counter tops, drop in sinks and tubs, etc. They are easier to use, and last much longer.
Sheldon
Made me look.
TBH, the title to this topic is click-bate because it is open end. Thanks for another made-me-look topic. Cheers.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If you want it permanent the best glue to use is 2 in 1 Poly-Seam-Seal.
I have removed that but it's hard. If you want to change your mind someday (Maybe), Just use Alex Plus caulk.
But you do have two glue down questions you're asking here and I think I basically answered them both
TF
Oops. My bad.
Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday. I was tired.
WayneI get the feeling I've missed something here, though.
The foam is for two main reasons: sound and scenery. I had a layout that was half on plywood and half on foam. The track clacking was significantly different.
I have a stream that drops below grade, and the softness if it makes it so I can say, try trees in different positions.
selectorTrack to cork, now two layouts in a row for me, was DAP Alex Plus with Silicone, 'clear'.
Got it. White glue and DAO Alex Plus eit Silcone.
Richard Cheap latex caulk should do it all, be sure it's foam compatable.
Yes, I prefer my foam intact.
MarkI agree with Richard. I use Dap Dynaflex 230 for all but attaching cork to plywood,, where I use yellow wood glue.
Dap Dynaflex 230. Got it.
Randy Indeed, the caulk should work for it all. But yeah, I'd avoid using a layer of the white messy foam. If you want something you can carve ditches into, even in your area you can probably get pink, blue, or green in the thinner sections. Might be tough finding the 2" stuff in warmer areas, but the thinner stuff is used for more than just absolute insulating value.
We have the pink at Home Depot. I'm going to try to exchange the white for pink. Unfortunately, I lost the receipt.
RandyFoam to plywood is the one that will take a significant dry time, as it's tough to get air in to dry the glue. Foam to foam is even worse since neither surface is porous. When I built my last layout with 2 layers of 2" foam, it took a week for the second layer of foam to be stuck on. For building up pieces of foam on foam for scenery - hot glue seems to work well. At last year's Reading Modeler's Meet, a guy gave a scenery demo clinic and built a diorama with foam and hot glue in the course of a 1 hour clinic - not even really waiting for the hot glue to fully set, and yet it still stayed together
Hot glue. I hadn't considered that.
RandyUsing caulk to glue down the cork and then also glue the track to the cork may in some way contribute to keeping the noise down - no solid setting adhesive, and no nails linking one layer to the other. And no, adding ballast did not change that, at least not using my mix of glue and alcohol instead of water - the hard water here prevents even the "few drops of dish soap" trick from working, and since I had the alcohol (70% - so there is still 30% water), I just mixed the glue with that - the alcohol seems to react with the PVA glue (white Elmer's) and when it dries it is kind of rubbery instead of the typical solid mass of a dried puddle of Elmer's. --Randy
I might give that a try.
Overmod A few considerations for these adhesives: Does the bond have to be 'stronger' than the substrates, and if so by how much? Does the area of the bond (or penetration of glue into the substrate) affect the strength of the result?
Not factors, I would think.
OvermodDoes the bond have to be functionally waterproof, or resistant to humidity changes? Does the bond need to be flexible?
The layout is not under any pipes, and we just redid the roof, so that's good for 15 years. The humidity is between 40-60% all year with it hanging out just under 50% most of the time.
Flexible? Nope.
OvermodIs the bond subjected to significant shear as well as 'separation' force?
I should hope the heck not. Any sheer force should be handled by the plywood. If not, I'm afraid the stucco will come off the house.
OvermodYour condition #2, Styrofoam to harder material like benchwork, is of interest here because the surface is irregular and the bond strength limited to the internal strength of the foam. Here you need a glue that 'wets' the surface effectively and has enough elasticity not to progressively pop beads on the surface loose or start cracks into the foam that lead to effective spalling. Note the characteristics attributed to Elmer's thinned with alcohol in this respect...
As noted above, I'm switching to the pink stuff. Besides, I think I own about 20 shares of Owens Corning stock.
LastspikemikeBeing able to dilute white glues into very weak adhesives is also pretty handy. Possibly the cheapest and perhaps most convenient adhesive for the proposed purpose would be very diluted PVA white glue. You don't need much strength in relatively large area laminating applications. Air pressure is your friend there.
Diluting PVA would definately make gluing down large surfaces easier.
HenryCheep matters but I agree with Randy, I would avoid white foam, even if it were free.
I'm taking the white stuff back and getting the pink.
HenryI used sheet cork, Elmers glue and insulation foam for my yard. I covered it with wax paper and weighted the cork, because Elmers glue bleeds through the foam. I had some areas where the cork didn't stick, maybe because there was an air bubble or inadequate weight. A syringe, needle and more dilute white glue fixed those areas.
I'll be using sheet cork in my yards as well. Thanks for the techniques.
HenryKen Patterson uses Gorrilla Glue, which needs water added or Great Foam spray insulation foam to stick foam to foam, or in the case of Gorrilla glue, foam to wood, as well. Both EXPAND. The Great Foam expands Greatly, more than you would think possible.
The idea of expansiveness is the reason I'm taking the white back.
HenryDo not use silicon caulk that has frozen over winter in the garage. It never sets up.
Time to cull the herd.
rrebell My whole layout is foam on top of 1x4's, never a problem. Use caulk for everything, white for 1 and 2 and clear for 3, all acylic. Be careful on three to use enough caulk but not too much so that it will hold but not sqish up .
Randy On my first foam layout, I did indeed just build a 1x4 frame and glue the foam to it, no plywood. I used yellow glue for that, then used caulk to glue the roadbed to the foam and track to the roadbed. Kind of think I used yellow glue to attach the first latyer of foam to the plywood on my last one, then caulk to glue the two sheets of foam together. --Randy
The reason I didn't do foam to frame that way is that I am using the cookie cutter method to make the elevation changes.
SheldonBecause my methods are not typical, and do not include foam........ I am almost reluctant to reply.
I'm glad you did. There were plenty of gems in what you wrote.
SheldonJust a side note, in my daily work restoring houses, which does include painting, we don't use any kind of caulk with silicone........ the two products listed above are far superior to any kind of silicone product for showers, counter tops, drop in sinks and tubs, etc. They are easier to use, and last much longer. Sheldon
I was a licenced general contractor for 15 years when I lived in California. Didn't do spec work. Dealing with the customers and subs, got to me and so I went back to school to get an advanced degree. Anyway, I listen when pros speak. And I kept all my tools.
riogrande5761 Made me look. TBH, the title to this topic is click-bate because it is open end. Thanks for another made-me-look topic. Cheers.
Click bait???
LastspikemikeYellow glue is pretty much unbeatable for gluing wood. It's certainly adequate to stick foam to wood.
Agreed.
I took back the white foam and got two sheets of pink and a gallon of white glue.
The foam is really dirty and dinged up. I'm going to have to wash down with a hose at least, and maybe scrub it before I can glue it down.
Can anyone suggest a dilution rate? I'm thinking 3:1 glue:water.
Don't dilute the gluwe to glue to foam to the wood, or foam to foam. The water has to come out to cure it, so the more water you start with, the longer it will take to dry. The foam to wood won;t be a problem, since wood is porous, but foam to foam will take much longer because it's hard for the water to evaporate out.
I wound't worry about it being dirty, you're going to paint it with a dirty earth colored paint anyway. Guess they don;t move much foam in Arizona. Around here, you might get a dirty sheet if it's the last one on a pallet at the bottom of a stack, but usually it comes in and goes out fast enough that it doesn;t have a chance to collect dust and dirt from the goings-on in the store.
I'm at least going to hose it off. I don't want to tuch it, let alone cut it to shape.
rrinkerThe water has to come out to cure it, so the more water you start with, the longer it will take to dry. The foam to wood won't be a problem, since wood is porous, but foam to foam will take much longer because it's hard for the water to evaporate out.
I'd argue that if you're flooding the surface of dirty foam, you're making the dirt particles into the equivalent of aggregate in a composite, and losing little if any actual joint strength if the glue penetrates 'under' the dirt. I'd be tempted to have him brush the dirty surface after applying the glue to ensure penetration to the actual foam-plastic face.
Except white glue won't work like contact cement. Once it dries, it's dry. ANd not so sticky any more.
Now, there ARE foam-safe contact cements that won't eat into EPS foam. That's another option. But it does require careful placement since you get exactly one shot at it. I probably could ahve done that since the way I built the framing for my old layout, I used 1x4 rails with 1x3 crossmembers so the foam sat down slightly inside the frame rails, which would have lined it up nicely for that one shot at getting it stuck in the right position. But I also still had my entire collection of old MRs at the time, so plenty of things to lay on top of the foam to weight it down and, since I am slow, waiting until the next weekend to use the section I built wasn't a big deal. But I did literally lay stacks of magazines evenly covering the ENTIRE surface of the foam to weight it down, not jsut, say, the corners and the center.
I think if I were doing it again, laminating foam to foam for benchwork purposes, I'd go for the contact cement. FOr stacking foam for scenery purposes, I'm thinking hot glue is perfectly fine. Especially after the scenery demo clinic I saw. Although once again, the guy made it look so super simple, which it never is for me. But he's an artist and costume maker (cosplay, halloween, scifi type things - neat stuff) and I most definitely am not. But like I need those artist types to do my scenery, those artist types need me to do their wiring, so we're even.
rrinkerExcept white glue won't work like contact cement. Once it dries, it's dry. And not so sticky any more.
In theory, at least some of these glues soften when wet, and this might make enough interfacial activity to give you a renewed bond. I have also read (although I can't remember where) that heating a glue layer once it is 'dry' can bring up its surface activity for good renewed bonding; doesn't Walthers Goo have this property?
Something that is tickling my thinking, derived from veneering: would it be better to prepare the joint between foam and benchwork by applying some filling material to the foam that can be dutched to a good contact surface, and a corresponding filler to the benchwork wood, and then make the actual interfacial adhesive joint using a material between those two prepared "flat" surfaces? I know it's more steps, but at times the better result is worth it.
This dancing around solutions is becoming tedious: there are foam-compatible adhesives readily available that will affix foam to wood, concrete, other foam, the bottom of your shoes or the back of your head - get some!
LePage PL 300 adhesive for foam board is one brand, and I'm sure that there are others available. Follow the instructions on the tube.
If you hose-off the dirt and let the foam dry, it should be ready-to-use.
I've had bad luck with those types of adhesives - I originally was going to biuld a test 4x8 by attaching two pieces of foam (around here, we used to only get the pink stuff in 2x8 sheets - Lowe's now has 4x8 sheets of the green version) with some wood. Based on all the recommendations of the use for the Liquid Nails for Project (foam safe) product, I used this to adhere the foam to some wood to link it all together,. Weighted it down and left it for a week. A week later, I picked it up - and the foam popped right off! THe adhesive was dried, hard as a rock.
I also used some of the regular liquid nails to glue on a toilet paper roll holder after redoing the bathroom. You know, what the stuff is supposed to be used for - ceramic to ceramic. Never did get it to stay on. Just one of those product brands I've had nothign but bad experiences with and will never ever buy again. Some of the work on my basement remodeling, the contractor used some other brand of construction adhesive to attach wood to the cemenet - trying to pry that off, the wood will shatter before the adhesive lets go. For anything needing a construction adhesive - I will use that brand.
MikeOne of these days railroad modellers are going to stop thinking they need benchwork strong enough to stand on. You just don't if you design your layout so you never have to put your weight on it. That is not difficult. Design for a 24" maximum reach and you're done. Use just foam.
[ Rant ] I effectively have four levels connected by a 2.25 percent grade. Sure I could have built it with foam, but it would be a lot more time consuming.
I just cookie-cut them and set them up for a 3% grade. Turns out I thought 3% looked off. So, I took out the the veritcal supports and 2 1/2 hours later, I had a 2.25% grade.
I'm probably going to use a lot of foam. I may use carboard and plaster cloth, too.
I used to pound nails for a living. I'm very comfortable with wood. But I understand that there are plenty of people out there that would benefit from forgetting the plywood and using the foam directly on the frame. These people would be building a mostly flat layout.
My layout is mostly a mountain, with a town at the base. Tunnels are open from the sides. Up the mountain are a silver mine and a logging camp. Making everything out of foam for me would be a project.
[ /Rant ]
And the debate continues.
It's pretty much a moot point now anyway. I glued it down with straight white glue, screwed it down with drywall screws--relax. Just for shear forces--and I have my wife's panty weighting it down. I gave the whole family a tour so they could see where their food was if they decided to make something.
Thanks everyone. It's been an education.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It was quite an effort to change stuff glued with Poly-Seam-Seal.
If you want something permanent with any kind of foam, it's 2 in 1 Poly-Seam-Seal. The stuff is like Super Elastic Bubble Plastic!
If you want to be able to change something someday, it's Alex plus, which is easily reversible. Done here many of times.
BUT
If you want to eventually carve two pieces of adjoining foam and don't want any problems doing so and never want to see the seam, ... Great Stuff Window and Door foam. A little messy at first but you learn to get the hang of it real quick!
Less is More
PS Don't ever try to wipe away the excess of expansion foam. The results are not good and you don't want to do that. Just leave it for later and it will be fine