Hi,
I'm getting started on a layout after 30 years out of the hobby. My son and I are starting on a 2x8 against-the-wall urban scene that will become part of an 8x8 layout with a walk-in area. We have a prototype short line railroad in our home town picked out that we plan to loosely base our layout on.
I'm planning to use Peco Code 83 track and turnouts, laid on cork roadbed and two inches of foam. I already have the 2x8 benchwork built but haven't ordered the track yet.
The biggest question I have is whether I should start with DC or DCC. I have a couple of locomotives and a few dozen pieces of rolling stock. The locomotives are Athearn blue box models from the late 80s. I'd like to get trains running as soon as possible, so I'm considering starting with DC and using the old equipment I have. Or, would I be better off to start with DCC now and then either convert the old locomotives or replace them with newer equipment?
Thanks!
Your first couple of posts are moderated, which results in a delay. Once that's done with you're good to go. Since you already have some blue box locos and want to get trains running ASAP, my opinion would be to start with DC and upgrade later if you so choose. I'll admit though, that I run DC, so I'm partial to it. Either way, good luck and have fun with it.
Welcome! Suggest you wire for DCC; e.g., needed size bus wire (for your eventual larger runs) and feeders where needed. Presuming you will not have a turntable, wye o reversing loop on your initial 2' x 8', it will be easy. You could break it into 2+ blocks if you want to run 2 or more DC trains before converting.
You can read about DCC meanwhile. I suggest the Kalmbach "DCC Guide" for a primer. You may even find it available with free shipping, if no hobby shop around you. Websites galore can supplement that, or you can just use those. A favorite, though extensive, follows:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/wirefordcc_toc.htm
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Have you tested the locomotives? I had some, older than yours, that I planned to start with, but they proved to be non-functional. Eventually I under up buying new engines and either installing DCC decoders or buying engines already DCC equipped.
If those old Athearn engines run well, you can probably add DCC later. The engines of that era typically had a lot of space under the shell for adding electronics.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
to the Model Railroader forums. Your first few posts are delayed by the moderators, but that will end pretty soon. Please stick around with us.
As far as DC or DCC goes, I always say ask yourself these three questions:
1) Do you already have a sizeable collection of DC locomotives?
2) Can you understand, install, and troubleshoot a DC system with no help from anyone else?
3) Are you perfectly happy running trains without sound?
Unless you can answer "YES" to ALL THREE questions, you should go for DCC right from the beginning.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hello All,
Slowmover...(W)ould I be better off to start with DCC now and then either convert the old locomotives or replace them with newer equipment?
Ah, the eternal question...
To DC or DCC, that is the question? (My apologies to the "Bard of Avon".)
As I have posted before- -my 4'x8' HO pike began as DC with 16 power blocks; some as small as a single 9-inch section.
This was 2-cab control with 16 turnouts. The turnouts were separately controlled by a "wall wart" and two Capacitive Discharge Units (CDUs).
Between the control blocks and the remote-operated turnouts I invested in a lot of copper- -wiring that is.
When I converted from DC to DCC the amount of wire I harvested from the control blocks could have put a substantial dent in a DCC system.
Luckily I was able to re-sell the DC control switches and recoup some of that money.
I still run my turnouts DC, so that outlay hasn't changed.
My point...
Depending on the complexity of your pike, and the number of locomotives you want to independently control, DC might initially seem the cheaper option.
In the long run, adopting DCC right off the bat might save some time and money.
(DC purists add comments here...)
SlowmoverI'd like to get trains running as soon as possible, so I'm considering starting with DC and using the old equipment I have.
Do you have the original "power pack" or controller (cab)?
Unless it is damaged, the technology of DC cabs has not changed much.
Find a space, put some track down, wire up your DC cab and see if the locos run.
As has been posted on these forums, "If it (the locomotive) doesn't run in DC, converting it to DCC won't make it any better."
Make sure they run well now to determine if they are even worth converting.
Slowmover...after 30 years out of the hobby.
One stumbling block you might encounter are the couplers.
I suspect the couplers on your collection are the F-2X (Hook & Horn) type.
Nothing wrong with these couplers.
However, all modern equipment will be fitted with knuckle type couplers, which are not compatible with the older Hook & Horn type.
Kadee is the "gold standard" for modern scale knuckle couplers.
They offer coupler conversions from older Hook & Horn to modern knuckle type.
If you choose to buy a modern locomotive with knuckle couplers you only have to convert one car.
These cars are known as transition cars.
One end will have been converted to a modern knuckle type coupler and the other end retains the Hook & Horn type.
A project like this will also introduce you to upgrading rolling stock.
You can leave the remaining rolling stock with Hook & Horn and have one "transition" car then upgrade as needed.
Keep the questions coming and...
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Since you are new, we don't know what you don't know.
You will not be able to run DC at the same time as DCC or else all the expensive smoke in your DCC command station will set off the smoke detector. NCE does not support running DC at all. Building a layout and converting locos to DCC is a lot on your platter at once.
Sound is the best reason to get into DCC, but not all people like sound and not everyone runs DCC.
If you have your old controller, I'd start with DC just to have things running quickly. I would install a DCC bus and feeders now.
As Paul suggested, do some reading. The wiring for DCC is a great site, but he gets too wrapped around the axle with his tail light bulbs.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I agree with the others, test your locos and see if they run. If they don't run well, and if money is not an issue for you, then I would suggest you buy a DCC system and a DCC loco (something like Athearn, Bachmann, Atlas or Walthers). If you don't have the $250 (the rest of the layout will cost you money too...), and if at least one of the locos runs OK, then there is no rush to convert to DCC. It can be done later very easily.
Simon
Hi slowmover
Step one get those old locomotives cleaned serviced and find out if they work.
Based on my vision of what a short line is, it sounds like you have the loco's you need.
On the assumption you know about DC stick with it DCC is expencive and only really has the anoying noise to offer. you also want to to get trains moving quickly.
As to the comment running a DCC bus and feeders HUH!!!??? a properly wired DC set up has that bus and feeder system from the word go.
Today a lot of DCC advocates never had a DC system so don't know how it worked, or have had DCC so long they have forgoten what a DC system is actually capable of doing and how to do it.
My sugestion would be to read up on both systems work out which is best for you.
Remember you will need to be able to build the system test fault find and fix any problems that come up from time to to time.
Which ever system you choose to go with do that from the start.
If the older locomotives run well are in good condition and are the right type for your short line then adding the DCC board is an option if there is enough room inside for it.
Couplings could be an issuie as these days most if not all US outline trains come with knuckle couplings iether Kadee or Kadee like couplings so you may need to change couplings if that was not done all those years ago.
regards John
Slowmover,
To stay DC or go to DCC that is the question. Well, that is a question that we can argue until you are too old to build your layout. If I'm partial to DC I can tell you how expensive DCC is, or how complicated programming can be. If I'm partial to DCC I can tell you how expensive DC can be with a solid powerpack (that costs the same as a DCC starter system) combined with the block switches and extra wire. Same goes for wiring - you can see incredibly easy or complex wiring diagrams.
The real answer is this: What do you want? You an ask "what are my operational goals" but again, either "side" can explain how you can achieve that with either system. Do you want to go DCC? Go for it. Do you want to start out DC? Go for it. Follow decent wiring practices, clean and maintain your fleet and lay some track. Run some trains. Decide which way, you can't go wrong - it is a hobby.
Have fun.
I have some older locomotives that are not worth upgrading. I have some older locomotives that run well and are worth it.
When I started out after 40 years of hauling boxes of my teenage layout with me from apartment to apartment, I had a lot of old DC engines and DC powerpacks. I planned to start out with DC and transition later. I came into a small amount of money, not a lot, and since it covered the cost of a DCC system, I went for it.
I installed a basic decoder, very easy, and wired the system to the track. I had about 5 feet of track layed. After one evening of running one train, I was hooked on DCC. I put the old powerpack beneath the table and was never even tempted to connect it to the track again.
Sometimes we say, with DC you run the track, but with DCC you run the trains. This really is true.
John BusbyToday a lot of DCC advocates never had a DC system so don't know how it worked, or have had DCC so long they have forgoten what a DC system is actually capable of doing and how to do it.
Speaking as the builder of several DC cab powered layouts and three DCC powered layouts, as well as having participated in operating sessions on quite a few layouts, I can definitely state that DCC is the far better way to go. Yes, you can get your trains to do wonderful things on straight DC power. However, the biggest difference between DC and DCC is the fact that DC requires you to operate the track while DCC allows you to operate the trains! No more flipping switches to activate the next block. No need to remove locos from the layout or switch off power to a track section just to park a loco. Just enter the road number of the loco you want to run and hit the throttle, any time, anywhere, and in any direction on the layout.
I remember when I was looking into DCC, a lot of people were claiming that DCC offered no advantage on a small layout. On the contrary, once I converted an existing small layout to DCC, I couldn't believe how much more fun that layout became. Eliminating the toggle switch two-step meant that I could concentrate on the trains and what they were doing. It also allowed two to three PEOPLE to enjoy running trains on that small layout at the same time!
While top quality DCC products can be expensive, DCC can definitely be done on a budget! There are quite a few early version DCC components that can be picked up inexpensively on the used market. Basic non-sound decoders can be found for as little as $16 each (I like the NCE D13SRJ decoder). A good starting point might be the MRC Prodigy Express or Express2 system and adding the MRC Prodigy WiFi module which will give you as many as eight wireless throttles (the smart devices people already have in their pockets). You can always add a larger booster if you ever need more power.
If you are already familiar with wiring a layout for DC cab control, then you can wire a small DCC layout in your sleep! Likewise, having the skills to wire a cab control layout also means you already possess the skills to convert DC locos to DCC. You mentioned having only a couple of older DC locos so it's not as if you have a huge fleet to convert. I have converted at least a dozen Athearn Blue Box locos, three MDC steamer kits, a couple of train set quality Bachmann locos, and even an old Tyco loco! It's not difficult and there are several good step-by-step videos on YouTube.
Find a LHS or privately owned DCC powered layout in your area and ask for a demonstration of DCC. I think you'll find that DCC offers significantly more operating advantages than DC and I haven't even discussed lighting and sound yet! Go for it!
Hornblower
Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it! I unpacked the time capsule a couple nights ago and checked out my locomotives. I have two Mantua steam locomotives from the early 70s and two Athearn blue box locomotives from the late 80s. Only one of the Athearns runs. It looks like I was in the process of remotoring the other one with a Sagami motor when I packed up the box. So, I think I'll just start over with DCC.
To my surprise, I found a local hobby shop that is open, and the proprieter seemed extremely knowledgeable about my many questions when I talked to him yesterday. Headed over there tomorrow!
Slowmover:
I have a different perspective. I built my layout 17 years ago, and no one I knew used DCC. So I built with three wireless throttles and rotary switch block controls, definitely DC. It is still in use, but the throttles and power supplies cost close to $1000 Canadian.
Three years ago I joined a local club that runs DCC. DCC is much easier to operate, but I didn't need to learn wiring or loco setup or anything of the sort. I have two DCC locos, set for DCC only.
If I was starting now, I would go DCC from the word go.
Just an old man's rambling.
Greetings and welcome. It's so easy to get confused and overwhelmed with DCC and DC. This raging debate is fun to watch, but doesn't answer key questions to consider in the layout. Others noted what's important. Heed their advice carefully!
Having started with DC and converted to DCC, I don't regret the move. Yes, I've encountered more than enough electrical issues to keep me more humble and still face frustrations given that DCC has a steep learning curve and require a level of mental discipline. To help, I suggested reading through http://www.wiringfordcc.com/ and watching youtube videos about DCC. Once you get the basic steps down, the rest becomes easier. There are a ton of other resources available, including here.
Digitrax high five: the company is VERY responsive to any questions. They answered what type of decoder I needed for an Bachmann ALCO S-4 switcher. Connect with them!
Good luck!
Hi Slowmover,
You will be happy that you have decided to start right from the beginning with DCC.
Without wishing to start a raging debate about which system is better, I will offer my worth as far as which system to buy. I personally believe that the NCE Power Cab is the best choice. I have operated both Digitrax and NCE and I find the Digitrax system to be much harder to use:
1. Digitrax throttles have a whole bunch of buttons that are exactly the same and the labels on the buttons are hard to read. The NCE Power Cab throttle is much easier to read.
2. Digitrax displays are hard to read. The Power Cab display is quite clear.
3. I have never attempted to do any programming with a Digitrax system. I read through the steps in the manual several times but it just didn't sink in. On the other hand, I found programming with the Power Cab to be easy.
4. Finally, when I was with my old club which used Digitrax, I noticed that very few people understood how to do anything except basic throttle control. If you asked most members how to start the system you would get a blank stare. Only a couple of people understood how to do programming, and basic problem solving like what to do when the 'stack' was full (too many locomotives in the system) required that even the experts get out the manual.
Don't get me wrong. Digitrax is not a bad system! In fact it has some features that advanced users find very valuable. However, for someone who is just starting out I believe that the NCE Power Cab is a better choice. The first time I tried mine I was running trains in a few minutes.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
If you want to operate trains as trains have been operated for years, consider learning all you can about operating DC. Think you will find DC has advantages in that if there is a problem, you can learn how to fix DC problems, but generally a DCC problem with equipment the device has to go back to the manufacture to be fixed. And unless you have left some DC trains to operate, you may be stuck with nothing to run until the repairs are completed and shipped back to you.
I started with DC and have made several changes over the years. I have bought a DCC system 8 years ago but have never plugged it in yet.
Have one locomotive from Broadway Imports that operates on DCC or DC with sound in the DC mode. So the saying you have to have DCC to have sound may not be fully truthful.
I have modified the throttle system from variable DC to a DC pulse throttle (PWM) build from plans in the Symposium on Electronics from an article in Model Railroader January 1981. It does what pure DC won't do. Like start up at super slow speed and operate fine for all functions.
You can wire your layout to operate with either DC or DCC, just you will save a lot of money with DC. I have 2 reverse loops with photocell detectors that automatically switch the polarity for continous operations. The whole system was less than $50 each for the reverse loop switching from Azatrax.
Slowmover Hi, I'm getting started on a layout after 30 years out of the hobby. My son and I are starting on a 2x8 against-the-wall urban scene that will become part of an 8x8 layout with a walk-in area. We have a prototype short line railroad in our home town picked out that we plan to loosely base our layout on. I'm planning to use Peco Code 83 track and turnouts, laid on cork roadbed and two inches of foam. I already have the 2x8 benchwork built but haven't ordered the track yet. The biggest question I have is whether I should start with DC or DCC. I have a couple of locomotives and a few dozen pieces of rolling stock. The locomotives are Athearn blue box models from the late 80s. I'd like to get trains running as soon as possible, so I'm considering starting with DC and using the old equipment I have. Or, would I be better off to start with DCC now and then either convert the old locomotives or replace them with newer equipment? Thanks!
Having used both systems on my layouts over the years, I would recommend DCC. Regardless of sound or layout size, simply being able to operate two locomotives independently on the same stretch of track - as Gomez does in the famous Addams family train set scene - is priceless. That said, while I was building my layout, I simply connected an old DC power pack to the rails to test my tracklaying and watch trains moving on day one. Meanwhile, like others here have suggested, I read the Big Book on DCC before going out and buying a system. I am a very satisfied Digitrax customer, but I know others who find it too user-unfriendly and I know what they mean - my user manual is very well-worn and some of Digitrax's throttles have way too many buttons!
Go with DCC. While you pay more up-front costs, the ease of getting going is shocking. I was surprised that many locos now available are plug-n-play.
On the flip slide, DCC forces you to become more aware of quality wiring. I can't tell you the troubles I've experienced in wiring and causes of shorts. The fact that one strand wire or something left on a track shuts down an entire pike is humbling (and frustrating).
In appreciating DCC more, I suggest doing some reading and consulting experts. Plenty of them here (thanks all!). You can also sync up with someone at a hobby store. Having these resources is invaluable!