Hi guys,
Couple questions for this one. First, have any of you done this? Starting a new layout with my dad and we are so disappointed in the Atlas stuff anymore. We are looking to hand lay all the track and switches. Anyone have any negatives for this? Other than the time it takes?
Question two is. I'm getting the fasttrack system and CNC plugs for building the turn outs. I'm not about to do all we need by hand so. LOL! My question is this. I'm going to be hopefully retiring soon. Is there any market or need for hand built turn outs/switches? I've been told they are so much more reliable and better than the mass produced, which makes sense. Just curious if there is a need out there for pre-done switches like this?Thanks for all the input as usual!Mike
Have you tried other brands besides Atlas? When I got to later phases of my layout, I stopped buying Atlas and went with Walthers/Shinohara. It greatly improved the appearance and performance, and I plan to continue with those, or their present equivalent.
I like nice trackwork and I'm pretty obsessive with getting as close to derailment free performance as possible, but I would much rather spend my time on building structures and creating scenery. I don't have the time to hand-lay track, being 73 years old and not getting any younger.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
After watching Fast Tracks turnouts made in person, and watching their instruction videos, I was SURE I could do it. After getting the jigs for #6 turnouts, I built one - and it worked great. I then tried to stat building more - and after many tries, never got another good frog. I have no idea how the first one came out grat but then I couldn't get another one. And that was just one size. A lot of money in tooling just to be able to make the 3 sizes of turnouts I will be using - and that doesn't count any potential curved ones.
I've always used Atlas, but the selection is more limited than some others, so for my new layout I am using Peco. They have multiple sizes of straight turnouts, plus curved, flex track, and crossovers. And they are gradually introducing Code 70 flex and turnouts in north american style to go with the Code 83 to make sidings and branches.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have around 50 turnouts on my current layout and all were hand built using the Fast Tracks method and PC ties. Interestingly, the only tool I purchased from Fast Tracks was the #6 Pointform Tool for filing the point and frog rails. I made my own assembly jig by gluing a photocopy of a Fast Tracks #6 template to a piece of plywood. I then used my table saw with a thin kerf plywood blade to cut shallow grooves where the PC ties go. I carefully bend bare rails (stripped from lengths of flex track) to fit the paper template and use an NMRA track gauge to ensure everything stays in gauge while I assemble the turnout. The most time consuming part of this method is filing the point and frog rails so you might want to purchase both coarse and fine mill files to speed things up. Remove a lot of material fast with the coarse mill file, then clean up with the fine mill file.
I have made mostly #6 left and right turnouts but also found I could build constant 22" radius diverging route turnouts, 22" radius "Wye" turnouts, and even curved turnouts. I found that I could build these turnouts for less than $5 each and they perform better than most commercial turnouts.
A few things I found during construction that improved turnout operation:
1. I found that extending the point rails one tie space beyond the throw rod (similar to the Joe Fugate method) allowed me to maintain more of the bottom web on the inside of the point rail. This allows a larger surface area for a stronger solder joint. I also recommend a stronger silver bearing solder for these point rail joints as the point rails will sometimes pop loose from the stress on these non-pivoting joints.
2. I found that filing away as much of the rail web as possible from both sides of each point rail between the throw bar and about 10 ties closer to the frog allows the point rails to warp far easier with less stress on the throw bar and switch machine.
3. I found that the best stock rail to point rail transitions are created by soldering the point rail to the throw bar while the end of the point rail is clamped to the stock rail. The only problem with this method is keeping flux (and solder) away from the stock rail. For these joints I do not apply flux and use a silver bearing solder for added strength. If you find you need extra flux, just apply anti-flux to the stock rail as well as the portion of the PC tie outside the position of the point rail. The Fast Tracks stock rail filing tool creates an undercut that provides extra clearance for a little solder flow outside the point rail while limiting point rail to stock rail contact to only at the top of each rail. I was using Model Power (GT) flex track and was not sure the Fast Tracks stock rail filing tool would fit track other than ME track.
Once you experience the flexibility of the Fast Tracks method, you'll never go back!
Hornblower
5150WS6We are looking to hand lay all the track and switches. Anyone have any negatives for this? Other than the time it takes?
Way back in the '70s, when both the world and I were still young, I was too poor to buy even Atlas track. So armed with a Jack Work article in the April '63 Model Railroader, I decided to lay my own track. This was a 4x8 layout that later got reduced to an open grid 4x6 due to moves. I actually had no real problems. Because PC board was available to me, but not to Jack, I used the PC board for a throwbar, and I used hinged points. My hinges were just a couple of spikes on either side at the point heel. My first turnout, and every turnout thereafter worked just fine.
After about 6 years, the solder joints of the point to the PC board throwbar started failing. To do it again, I would ensure there is a pivot of some kind to the throw bar (Jack Work used screws).
My turnouts were layed in place on Homasote roadbed with constant 18" radius curve. Frogs were fairly crude, filled with solder, then flangeways were sawn out with a hacksaw blade as per the Jack Work article. Each turnout was about 2-3 hours over 2 evenings, or I could handlay 3ft of regular track in the same time in 2 evenings. This was from bare Homasote to stained ties, and ballasted and painted track.
Question two is. I'm getting the fasttrack system and CNC plugs for building the turn outs...Is there any market or need for hand built turn outs/switches? I've been told they are so much more reliable and better than the mass produced, which makes sense. Just curious if there is a need out there for pre-done switches like this?
With Shinohara out of production, there is a critical small need for dual gauge HO/HOn3 turnouts. Shinohara was the only manufacturer of dual gauge turnouts and transitions and HOn3 crossings that I know of, and the stocks have all been bought up. The Fast Tracks jigs for these turnouts are over $150 each, and there are 4 configurations to deal with. So it's rather difficult for an individual to justify the expense of the jigs. I will most likely be building my own without jigs just to make my track plan work. But if I could buy them for less than $50 each, I probably would (I have locomotive kits that need building and a couple of brass pieces to rebuild and remotor and DCC chip, too).
Railway Engineering does custom trackwork (does not use Fast Tracks templates or tools) but he is often back-ordered.Hope this helps.
Fred W
My last layout was made with Walthers #5 turnouts and Micro Engineering flextrack.ZERO problems. Five to ten minutes of checking the turnout before installation, and away we go.Hand lay track if you want. But the notion that it's the only way to get reliable track is just plain fallacious.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
5150WS6 Hi guys, Couple questions for this one. First, have any of you done this? Starting a new layout with my dad and we are so disappointed in the Atlas stuff anymore. We are looking to hand lay all the track and switches. Anyone have any negatives for this? Other than the time it takes?
I do have about 4 handlaid switches on the layout out of about 75. I save it for specialty work that can't be done with a commerical turnout. The majority of my turnouts are Peco with a few Shinohara's thrown in for curved turnouts.
I have the #6 point filing jig and the Stock Aid from Fast Tracks. This really speeds up construction and for the most part I keep the #6 as my minimum switch size.
Here is an example: I had a area which required a curve on curve crossover. No commercial turnout would fit this correctly, so i built one.
Template made
PC Ties laid down with double sided tape
Rails Added
Wood Ties added
Installed:
On the points I drill a small hole in the throwbar next to each rail and solder an L-shape piece of phosphor bronze wire to the rail. This creates a mechanical connection between the throwbar and the point rail and means the solder connection is not taking the brunt of the action. I believe when all said and done it took about 5 and half hours to do this turnout. its 27 inches long end to end.
I waited to paint it so that when I do it'll match the rest of the track.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Thanks for the responses guys. So my reasoning for getting away from Atlas and going hand laid switches options is this. We are building a huge layout. Close to 60 switches and they will all be #12's. Not only can I build them cheaper than buying say Walthers or some of those others but they will undoubtably perform better. And working out the math with the prices I've gotten on some of the stuff I can build a switch for around $20. That's much better than $35+ bucks for some of the nicer switches. Let alone the fact it's harder to find big radius switches like that. We are also going with the hard flex type switch. Where it just sort of bends the switch vs being hinged. I think that will just mean better reliabilty. While I don't doubt I can get reliability with some of the other switches I just don't want to have to fuss with any of them nor do I want to spend the money.As the shop is being built I can build close to 50 switches if I do 7 in a month.......then we can work on just the layout and not focus on the track.
I'm just curious if there's enough need for hand laid switches? I know there have been a few on ebay. And it would intitially be a big cost to get all the plugs from FastTracks, but it would be a cost I'd be willing to do if I could recoop it back at some point.I guess I'll start with the all the switches for our layout and then look closer. I may not want anything to do with switches after that! LOL!
Thank you guys for all the info on your experience with building them as well. That will definitely come in handy!Mike
I use Fastrack jig in N scale with cod 55 track.
One of the best investment I have ever done !
I have also learn a lot by using these jigs; I now buy my own turnouts in place specially were I need a special arrangement of track.
Even If you don't use the jigs, Fastrack sold numerous tools the help to build handlaid turnouts.
The frog tool and the point tool are a great help in any case to make precisely track form.
About the frog tool, buy the larger on, I believe it's a #12 frog tool, with this one you can prepare any rail frog for a turnouts from a #4to a #12 frog.
Fastrack also offer a big library of free printable template of turnouts, which are great and precise enough to build in place any turnout.
All #12 turnouts? I realize you have a fairly large space from your previous post, but all turnouts #12? That space will disappear quicker than you can blink if every siding, the yard (and based on that other thread, you are thinking two yards), etc are all #12s. It's quite unnecessary. #10 or #12 MAYBE for mainly crossovers, some cosmetic locations - but there it little operational reason to use #12s elsewhere, or even #10s. Frankly, a #8 is overkill for a yard. What radius curves do you plan on? The NMRA table doesn't even go up past a #10, and that has a closure rail radius of 160".
It sounds cool to use such large numbers - but 1200 square foot isn't THAT much space to allow curves even approaching that large. To even go 40" radius curves Will compromise what sort of track arrangements you can fit (I'm assuming the 1200 sq ft is basically rectangular) because a complete turnaround would require 80", figure a minimum of 7 feet for a peninsula so the track isn't right at the edge, and that's bare minimum, you'd probably want more than 2" from the track to the big drop off. A #7 or #8 would be compatible with that radius and then some.
I believe you have some more thinking to do before buying anything.
Edit: There's not a spreadsheet you can get from the NMRA web site, it lists a #10 at 97" radius on the closure rail (this is the sharpest curve part of the turnout), and a #12 at 138"
the following might be a useful perspective. lead is the distance from points to frog.
frog lead angle radius 4 5.28 14.25 21.45 5 6.60 11.42 33.33 6 7.92 9.53 47.85 7 9.24 8.17 65.01 8 10.56 7.15 84.81 9 11.88 6.36 107.25 10 13.20 5.72 132.33 11 14.52 5.21 160.05 12 15.84 4.77 190.41 13 17.16 4.41 223.41 14 18.48 4.09 259.05 15 19.80 3.82 297.33 16 21.12 3.58 338.25 17 22.44 3.37 381.81 18 23.76 3.18 428.01 19 25.08 3.01 476.85 20 26.40 2.86 528.33(I actually know of a layout with a #16 crossover)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
The Fast Tracks method works best on 'longer' turnouts, such as those with at least a #6 frog...IF...you are going to use the method they suggest where you solder the point rails to the PCB throw-rod. Shorter points rails will offer more resistance to the throwing motion, although it isn't a whole order of magnitude diffrent.
I have made many custom turnouts, built in position, because the method works so well. I haven't had any frog failures, and only had some trouble with shorts on one custom wye turnout. I finally severed a tie in order to get the short stopped, and the turnout worked very well, even slamming heavy Walthers heavyweight consists through it in both directions at 'limited' speeds.
It helps to think the whole idea through before embarking on that first build. You have to have firmly in your mind what each copper cladding division means in the middle portions of each tie where solder will adhere a rail to it anywhere. By firming the architecture in your mind, you minimize any overlooked mistakes that leave you with a confounded shorting turnout and you storming out of the train room.
Also, you have to agree that your skills need improvement, or maybe a start right from scratch. These are precision turnouts requiring skills and dexterity, and some ingenuity. They might require de-soldering and repositioning. If you mangle a tie, say by burning the copper right off the surface you'r attempting to use, you'll have to separate it from all rails currently adhered and slide another one, with the correct slot(s) in the copper cut, into place and start over. Happened to me...maybe more than I'd like to admit to.
At the end, with two or three keepers, you'll know in your heart that you can go on to build ANY turnout type you need, with any angle, on any future layout. This, to me, is the Great Gift from Tim Warris and Co. And from Joe Fugate and the others who offer kits and how-to's everywhere modelers meet.
Plan to fail. Those who have any success in life also plan to eventually win.
First, number me among the crew who thinks #12 turnouts are extremely excessive unless you have a zeppelin hanger to build in.Second, you said "$20 per turnout" to build yourself. MicroEngineering #5 and #6 turnouts are $18.95 each from this place:https://www.harrishobbies.com/track_ho_microengineering.htmPlenty of modelers use ME turnouts, and they're a good reliable product. Lance Mindheim uses them exclusively and he is a professional layout builder.I really urge you to rethink the course you are on.
Reply in support of FT.
For my small layout I built 20 some-odd turnouts (#6 & 4.5). That was 10y ago. They all remain uber-reliable. The very first one built was a dud. I took the lessons from that one onto mass production building 3 at a time. Couple learnings:
i. Don't force curved rail into the FT slots before soldering to the ties. If a curved rail won't just drop into the slot take it back and rework it.
ii. Sand a piece of PCB tie to the correct thickness (without copper on either side) to use as a spacer between the stock rail and point rail when soldering the point to the throw rod tie. This allowed me to create point openings that are EXACTLY the size of the NMRA guage requiring less throw action by whatever operating mech I chose.
I have seen assembled FT turnouts on sale on EBay so I assume there is a market if one had the time and inclination to go that route. I've retained my FT tools and lent them out on occasion to other modellerns in my town.
Building turnouts with FT was a little challenging but very rewarding. I recommend these over store-bought.
Dwayne A
5150WS6 Not only can I build them cheaper than buying say Walthers or some of those others but they will undoubtably perform better.
A pretty optomistic statement if you haven't built one yet.
Proto 87 has jigs and parts for making your own switches.
Bayfield Transfer Railway First, number me among the crew who thinks #12 turnouts are extremely excessive unless you have a zeppelin hanger to build in. I really urge you to rethink the course you are on.
First, number me among the crew who thinks #12 turnouts are extremely excessive unless you have a zeppelin hanger to build in.
I really urge you to rethink the course you are on.
I agree with you but let the OP crack-on; it will be interesting to see. Maybe this will one of those: "Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry") moments. Remember jjdammit's siggy?
Hopefully the OP will post a track plan with those 48 inch curves and #12 turnouts.
Plenty of modelers use ME turnouts, and they're a good reliable product. Lance Mindheim uses them exclusively and he is a professional layout builder.
I've actually read a lot of "mixed" comments on ME turnouts over the past several years. I know Lance is a "big name" but others have reported issues with their ME turnouts. There has been enough negative feedback from other modelers that I have bought a bunch of Peco tunrouts for my layout (under construction). I also don't care for the appearance of the cast frog on ME turnouts. Peco use rail for their frogs although the points aren't stock rail. Really, the best "looking" commerical turnouts have been Walthesr/Shinohara. I haven't seen the new Walthers yet since Shinohara shut down.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySecond, you said "$20 per turnout" to build yourself.
$20 is way too high. probably the cost of a piece of rail, a few PC ties and some wood ties (< $5).
i followed the Tony Koster article, Build a turnout from scratch . He said you can always just scrap it up and start over.
one reason i built my turnouts was for powered frogs because my locos have short wheel bases. I learned what every part of the turnout does, especially those guard rails, having to tweak mine after initial installations
the frist took a few hours. but i was surprised how little time it took to build my last turnout, a curved turnout, once i completed a template. I hadn't used a template before. A dremel grinding wheel made things quicker.
and another thing I learned is they can be taken out and reused
When I first got started model railroading in junior high, I used Atlas and several off-brand turnouts. They were always problematical, but then I never thought to check wheel gauge and such.
In college I started building my own turnouts using a very old Model Railroader article. I was rather shocked that they worked great! Still didn't check wheel gauges. Looking back, I think they wound up being about a #3, but that was unintentional.
After college I started using Peco and Shinohara. They generally worked OK, but I was never really happy with them. Still too many derailments. About that time I started checking wheel gauges, and things improved a bit. The cars and locos still bumped roughly over the frogs, but that was a function of the gaps between the wing rails and the frog more than anything.
I think it was at the National Train Show at the 2006 NMRA convention in Philadelphia (the first I ever attended) I saw a Fast Tracks turnout demo by Tim Warris. The smoothness of the rolling stock as it ran back and forth through the turnouts was amazing! I bought a #6 jig with point and frog tools right there, and have never looked back.
So I build all my own turnouts using Fast Tracks jigs, and never have a derailment (except when I run the turnout from the wrong direction).
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
riogrande5761I've actually read a lot of "mixed" comments on ME turnouts over the past several years. I know Lance is a "big name" but others have reported issues with their ME turnouts.
A big reason for this is that ME changed the product. The initial turnouts were flimsy - I had frogs come loose, and throwbars disintegrated. One code 70 turnout even had code 83 closure rails.
The design change to the current DCC friendly turnouts seemed to address the quality problems. All of the later ME turnouts I've used have been great.
I also don't care for the appearance of the cast frog on ME turnouts.
Is this observation based on how the turnout looks before or after it's painted?
DSC03175 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
DSC03175
The turnout at right foreground is a ME #6.
Milton West 5 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
Milton West 5
Both of these are Shinohara #6. After painting and ballasting, they both look very similar.
Rob Spangler
I was taught to handlay switches back in about 1975, so I have been laying them for a while. I have tried a half dozen ways to build them, including PC ties, before there was Fast Tracks. I've built them in place, on the work bench, as "kits" (frogs points and guardrails) and several different point hinge arrangements.
They pretty much all work.
I currently build them in place and don'use PC board ties. I find that much easier in many respects. Its just about as quick to build, can be adapted to any aignment or frog size and it makes ballasting way, way easier (I ballast before I lay rail so there is no chance of getting ballast in the flangeways.) Plus its way cheaper, no jigs to buy.
Here is a link to the slides I used in a clinic on handlaying switches, it might have a few helpful hints. My methods don't really require any math or measuring angles or any of that stuff. Pretty basic.
https://wnbranch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Switches3.pdf
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave,
excellent presentation! I'll save it for future reference.
I have scratcbuilt a handful of switches and crossings when I couldn't find a commercial product that would work.
I generally avoid hand laying and use mostly ME and BK switches. ME look the best to my eye -didn't like Pecos code 83 because of the stamped points and the thick throwbar ties - of course opinions vary on this.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I was probbaly standing right next to you in Philly watching Tim and crew build Fast Tracks. WHish is how I got to thinking I could actually do this. Unfortunately that didn;t seem to turn out to be true in my case, although maybe if I gave it another go I could do it. Still take too long to build as many as I need, plus I only have #6 fixtures. Which I had cut for Atlas code 83 rail, because I was going to use Fats Tracks turnouts and Atlas flex, and I didn't want to have to shim and file every turnout connection. I should probably just sell the tooling, I doubt I will ever use it.
$20 may or may not be too high an estimate - yes, the rail and PCB ties are cheap enough, and you can DIY on the in between wood ties instead of buying the Fast Tracks peel and stick ones, but you also have to amortize the cost of the tooling in there. The more you make, the cheaper they get. If you get the supplies from Fast Tracks, the raw materials cost is probably around $8-$10 per turnout. I haven't checked lately on the cost of PCB ties or the wood tie sections.
rrinker I was probbaly standing right next to you in Philly watching Tim and crew build Fast Tracks. WHish is how I got to thinking I could actually do this. Unfortunately that didn;t seem to turn out to be true in my case, although maybe if I gave it another go I could do it. --Randy
I was probbaly standing right next to you in Philly watching Tim and crew build Fast Tracks. WHish is how I got to thinking I could actually do this. Unfortunately that didn;t seem to turn out to be true in my case, although maybe if I gave it another go I could do it.
When I built my first Fast Tracks turnout I was very doubful of it working well. I was surprised that it actually did work well. Since then I've probably built 30 or more over the years - code 83 and 70 #6, and a couple code 83 #8. A little secret Tim told me when I was at the New Haven national riding on the bus with him from the hotel to the convention center: With a code 83 jig you can build code 70 turnouts just fine. He said the ME rail base on code 70 was .001 inch narrower than on their code 83 rail, so the turnouts come out just fine.
Yes, Micro Engineering changed their turnouts.I've also operated on some large, extremely reliable layouts using them. I'm sufficiently impressed that I'll be using ME from now on, especially since I already use their flex track, which I love. The non weathered version; the weathering paint on their weathered rail catches the spikes on the ties and makes it hard to flex.
I prefer them to Walthers and Pico because the headblock/throw rod area looks much better, and the Pico point hinges are frankly ghastly.
Maybe the Peco Code 100, but the Code 83 North American turnouts have a nearly invisible hinge.