Thanks for the wiring diagram Ed.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
BigDaddyWhich are the wipers? If all 16 of those tabs are wipers, which ones do I use?
I'll borrow this photo from Amazon.
W is the wiper, it has continuity to the ring in the middle, partly hidden by the frame-piece. You can barely see the tip of the contact touching that inner ring.
Rotary2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Follow the green dots to the contact point. Imagine that contact finger moving to the next position. The W wiper will still be making continuity with the middle ring.
On a FOUR pole switch only four points will be common "wipers" you just have to look for the finger that contacts the ring.
Hope that helps. There's probably better pictures out there but I don't have them at hand.
Here's a better look. These are the switches I use. W = wiper or pole, C = contact or position [wiper is "made" at this position].
Rot-bot by Edmund, on Flickr
https://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/electrical_electronic_components/switches/rotary_switches
Commonly, the wiper terminal (pole) is identified as a letter and the selectable contact points (position) as a number.
OK, I'm hitting the rack for a while
Ed
All of the text and all of the diagrams in the various replies point out the complexity of track routes. Here are some visuals on my layout, using the Peco Code 83 Unifrog Double Slip. The bottom track is 1 and the top track is 4.
The first photo shows the train crossing through the double slip up to the second track above with the left throwbar down and the right throwbar up. 1 to 3.
The second photo shows the train diverging through the double slip up to the track immediately above with the left throwbar up and the right throwbar up. 1 to 2.
The third photo shows the train moving left to right through the double slip with the left throwbar up and the right throwbar down. 2 to 2.
The fourth photo shows the train diverging up through the double slip to the track immediately above with the left throwbar down and the right throwbar down. 2 to 3.
Alton Junction
I'm a rotary switch newbie and I stil don't understand. Googling wiper gets me switches for windshield wipers.
Which are the wipers? If all 16 of those tabs are wipers, which ones do I use?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
gmpullman CP_Union_model by Edmund, on Flickr In the above photo you can see everything is lined for the two mains and the secondary, all green LEDs across. I should make a diagram spelling out the A-B-C-D positions for each of the knobs but all an operator has to do is watch the red/green lights for a line-up. Hope that helps, Ed
CP_Union_model by Edmund, on Flickr
In the above photo you can see everything is lined for the two mains and the secondary, all green LEDs across.
I should make a diagram spelling out the A-B-C-D positions for each of the knobs but all an operator has to do is watch the red/green lights for a line-up.
Hope that helps, Ed
Rich
When I first set up my CP-Union junction I fretted over how I was going to control the three slip switches. I even came up with a series of plugs and sockets that plugged in like a switchboard operator routes phone calls.
Then I found those surplus push buttons and tried one on the first slip switch I had on a yard lead. It was very successful (see my earlier photo)
But for the Union Station leads I later found nice rotary switches and I never looked back. Very happy with the results.
CP_Union by Edmund, on Flickr
Thanks, Ed. That appeals to me as a way to automate my four double slip complex.
On my old layout, with only one double slip, I used two Tortoises to power the double slip, each Tortoise controlled by a DPDT toggle switch. The pertinent control panel simply tapped off of the DPDT to control the pair of bi-polar LEDs that indicated selected track routes.
On my new layout, with a four double slip complex, I opted for manual control of the Peco double slips by moving the throwbars up and down. That makes route selection east, but wiring a control panel is difficult.
Edit Note: Thanks for posting that wiring diagram, Ed.
richhotrainEd, tell me if I am understanding your use of the 4-pole rotary switch.
I'll have to get around to making a decent drawing of how I wired them.
Picture each leg of the "wiper" going to the four Tortoise terminals (Tortoise A: 1 & 8; Tortoise B: 1 & 8) Now for each of the four positions you refer to the chart I made above.
So you feed your DC + and – to the switch poles as needed for each step of the switch.
Sounds complicated to say, but really is easy to do. There are two wires coming in to the switch and four out, one pair to each Tortoise.
I'll work on a sketch and post it in a little while. The signal or panel indicators are simply LEDs in series with the Tortoise actuating wire (either one) as described in the data sheet or several other sources.
Hastily sketched!
4P4P by Edmund, on Flickr
Cheers, Ed
richhotrain gmpullman That switch should work out very well for you, Dave. Looking closely at the photo it does look like it is a non-shorting type 4 Pole Rotary Switch. I may have to get a few as spares (ignoring the hoarding lifetime supplies thread ) I simply wire a pair of bi-color LEDs in series with the lead to the Tortoise for the track status diagram. At a glance you see your route. Ed, tell me if I am understanding your use of the 4-pole rotary switch. You wire one 4-pole rotary switch to control both of the two Tortoises and the control panel LEDs? Rich
gmpullman That switch should work out very well for you, Dave. Looking closely at the photo it does look like it is a non-shorting type 4 Pole Rotary Switch. I may have to get a few as spares (ignoring the hoarding lifetime supplies thread ) I simply wire a pair of bi-color LEDs in series with the lead to the Tortoise for the track status diagram. At a glance you see your route.
That switch should work out very well for you, Dave. Looking closely at the photo it does look like it is a non-shorting type
4 Pole Rotary Switch.
I may have to get a few as spares (ignoring the hoarding lifetime supplies thread )
I simply wire a pair of bi-color LEDs in series with the lead to the Tortoise for the track status diagram. At a glance you see your route.
Ed, tell me if I am understanding your use of the 4-pole rotary switch.
You wire one 4-pole rotary switch to control both of the two Tortoises and the control panel LEDs?
I'm sure that is what Ed has done, no doubt he will give us the details.
I use four lighted pushbuttons and four relays. And that allows the controls to be duplicated on two or more panels. No matter which location you change it from, all locations show the correct route with the lights.
Sheldon
gmpullmanI may have to get a few as spares (ignoring the hoarding thread Zip it!)
It's not a thread about hoarding, it's about buying what you need, if you are immortal.
[edit] Fixed it
rrinker I was looking at the Peco, and 4 positions are it: 1. Both throwbars to the top: bottom track is straight through, top track has an open point on the right, derailment. 2. Both throwbars down: top track straight through, bottom track has open point 3. Left throwbar up, right throwbar down: Top left to bottom right cross over, bottm left has an open point 4. Left throwbar down, right throwbar up: Bottom left to top right cross over, bottom right has open point Ulrich, your animation is for a single slip. One side can go straight, or they both cross over. Double slip has a third point on each throwbar so either track can go straight.
I was looking at the Peco, and 4 positions are it:
1. Both throwbars to the top: bottom track is straight through, top track has an open point on the right, derailment.
2. Both throwbars down: top track straight through, bottom track has open point
3. Left throwbar up, right throwbar down: Top left to bottom right cross over, bottm left has an open point
4. Left throwbar down, right throwbar up: Bottom left to top right cross over, bottom right has open point
Ulrich, your animation is for a single slip. One side can go straight, or they both cross over. Double slip has a third point on each throwbar so either track can go straight.
Or, were you referring to Ulrich's single slip?
Tinplate Toddler Rich, I am a night owl, but I am also 7 hours ahead of you (just by the time of the day).
Rich, I am a night owl, but I am also 7 hours ahead of you (just by the time of the day).
rrinkerUlrich, your animation is for a single slip. One side can go straight, or they both cross over. Double slip has a third point on each throwbar so either track can go straight.
Now that you say it, I can see it!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Dave, Ed, and Ulrich,
You guys are night owls, at least from a Chicago time zone perspective. LOL
Around 1PM last night, I went to bed after reading Ed's late evening post. I decided to wait until morning to chime in, but now I am too late since you all worked it out.
I mentioned in an early post to this thread that the Peco double slip (and the Walthers Shinohara double slip as well) were complicated and non-intuitive in terms of the operator controlling its movements. Your early morning discussion bears that out.
As you have now resolved, there are four possible routes, but only two point rail movements required to control those routes. The beauty of the double slip engineering is that the four pairs of point rails are ganged together into two pairs of point rail sets, one set on the left side and one set on the right side. In other words, if you move the left side throwbar up or down, two pairs of point rails move in tandem. If you move the right side throwbar up or down, the other two pairs of point rails move in tandem.
Depending upon the last route selected through the double slip, the next movement of a locomotive through the double slip may require two changes in point rail position, or one change in point rail position, or no change in point rail position. The other movement option to consider is a locomotive approaching the double slip from the left side versus a locomotive approaching the double slip from the right side.
All things considered, the double slip is complex, but with time and repetition, controlling the movements and routes through a double slip become somewhat second nature. On my new layout, I have a complex of four Peco Code 83 Unifrog double slips on my 4-track mainline that allow locomotives to enter/exit any one of the four mainline tracks.
Initially, I was going to stay with Tortoise control as I had done with a single Walthers Shinohara Code 83 double slip. However, since I would be using my finger to flip the spring loaded points on all of the other Peco regular turnouts on my layout, I went with manual control of the four double slips. I have to say, once mastered, it is a lot of fun manually controlling the double slip turnouts.
gmpullmanI have a spare rotary. I'd be glad to wire it for you and send it "overseas" to Barrie.
Thanks Ed,
That's very kind and generous of you, but I just ordered a 4P4T rotary switch from Amazon a few minutes ago for less than $8.00 Cdn. plus $5.00 shipping. The postage would likely cost you more than that.
hon30critterNow I am confused. I see four different combinations of the throwbar positions.
Correct.
I made a matrix. Two Tortoises, two positions each. FOUR possibilities.
I used railroad terminology for N normal and R reverse.
Ultimately you need this result: (the + — represent the DC polarity required at each Tortoise #1 and #8 terminal)
N — R = + – – +
R — N = – + + –
R — R = – + – +
N — N = + – + –
You can achieve this with the usual DPDT toggle switches, (X2) one for each Tortoise.
Or the latching pushbutton I pictured above.
Or a four-pole rotary switch, which for my use — and anyone that operates my layout — can instantly see the route.
I reread past threads about double slip switches and they all seem to take the same route that this one has. Your questions are quite reasonable, Dave.
Option II
I have a spare rotary. I'd be glad to wire it for you and send it "overseas" to Barrie. (One package I sent you, the postmistress told me I used the wrong label for an overseas mailing! )
(I'm sipping that RUM you promised me )
Regards, Ed
hon30critterNow I am confused.
Me too!
But maybe this helps to solve the mystery!
hon30critterThat will allow me to use Ed's rotary switch method for control. Problem solved.
I bought my rotary switches years ago, Dave. I was told that they were Russian surplus.
THIS switch sould work for you. Rotary, Non shorting.
The ones I bought were shorting type but I modified the wiper to make it non-shorting. Most rotary switches have a way to limit the unused positions so if you only need four positions you can block some off.
I have a wiring sketch here somewhere that I can send you.
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullmanSorry if I misled anyone. Thank you for the correction,
Now I am confused. I see four different combinations of the throwbar positions. Each one produces a different route as I explained in my previous post. I guess I'm not understanding the terminology.
Tinplate ToddlerEd - you are wrong!
Sorry if I misled anyone.
Thank you for the correction,
Tinplate ToddlerEd - you are wrong! If you check the picture in my first answer, you see that the Peco crossover switch is set up very similar to the one shown in your picture. You can select either a diverging route or a straight route through the switch.
Actually Ulrich, I have been studying the Peco double slip and Ed is right. There are four distinct positions required to be able to use all the possible routes. That is what makes his rotary switch method so attractive.
To reference your diagram, the four options are as follows:
1. Both throwbars up = bottom curved route through lower tracks.
2. Both throwbars down = top curved route through upper tracks.
3. Left throwbar up, right throwbar down = lower right to upper left route.
4. Left throwbar down, right throwbar up = upper right to lower left route.
There is only one possible route through the turnout with each setting.
Tinplate ToddlerIf you check the picture in my first answer, you see that the Peco crossover switch is set up very similar to the one shown in your picture.
I can't tell anything from that picture, even enlarged.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
gmpullmanI have to believe, the Peco are not arranged like this and require FOUR distinct movements of the points.
Ed - you are wrong! If you check the picture in my first answer, you see that the Peco crossover switch is set up very similar to the one shown in your picture. You can select either a diverging route or a straight route through the switch.
I got the double slip turnout today. I still have to put my meter on it to see what the leads coming off the bottom are connected to.
I have decided to not bother with having the double slip controls on both sides of the layout. Logic suggests that I will only be operating the service yard when I am on that side of the layout. That will allow me to use Ed's rotary switch method for control. Problem solved.
SeeYou190Is this not true? Does each Tortoise need to individually select the pathway for each entry/exit?
I mentioned the Roco/AHM type double slip that Magnus is refering to.
The point arrangement is different (I'll show examples when I find another thread we had here a few years ago)
Here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/273358.aspx
IF I could get away with two postitons rather than four I most certainly would have used only TWO.
This example of the common "Euro-style" double slip can be thrown as Magnus is saying:
roco_ds by Edmund, on Flickr
The Shinohara, and I have to believe, the Peco are not arranged like this and require FOUR distinct movements of the points.
Lots of misinformation spills over into some discussions. One fellow was calling these "automated crossovers".
Marc_MagnusI think with humility, in US you have a missunderstood about a double slip; they are sparse and less used in US than in Europe were I lived; they are numerous of them in any size.
Perhaps not in abundance, but when required. I've seen many main-line applications in U.S. as well.
Do the south leads to Chicago Union Station have more double slip switches, rightly called "puzzle switches", than any place else? by Marty Bernard, on Flickr
SeeYou190 I am getting confused here... not too hard to do to me. I have never used a double slip switch, but I was planning to on the next layout. I own one Shinohara Double Slip #6 code 83 turnout. I always assumed it could be controlled by two Tortoises wired to a single reversing DPDT toggle, and then selected to be either "X" or ")(" operation. Is this not true? Does each Tortoise need to individually select the pathway for each entry/exit? -Kevin
I am getting confused here... not too hard to do to me.
I have never used a double slip switch, but I was planning to on the next layout.
I own one Shinohara Double Slip #6 code 83 turnout. I always assumed it could be controlled by two Tortoises wired to a single reversing DPDT toggle, and then selected to be either "X" or ")(" operation.
Is this not true? Does each Tortoise need to individually select the pathway for each entry/exit?
No really not, I explained it in my previous answer, the two motor must be wired so they both together give one or the other form of the double slip meaning a curved track or a crossing track, you don't need more.
So in a position the two motors move the points to be a crossing, in the second they move the points to be a curved track, so they need to be wired together.