Since my timesaver will be completely isolated from the rest of the layout, I think the HOn3 option might be worth looking more closely into.
I would need a SHORT HOn3 diesel.
I will keep a pin in this idea for now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Narrow gauge was certainly used for industrial trackage in places. So you can probably get away with it. Usually this would be a single product industry though, not a wide variety or a business park sort of thing. The problem is getting incoming material from the standard gauge cars to narrow gauge, and vice-versa. The East Broad Top comes to mind - but they had clearances such that they swapped trucks under hoppers to haul empties to the mines on the 3' gauge track and then put them back on standard gauge trucks when loaded.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I cleaned out the garage a little bit more today, and I found a stash of HOn3 trackage that I had.
This might also help shrink the timesaver. If I use HOn3 track and build 32 foot long frieght cars.
Unfortuntely I do not have enough HOn3 track components to fully mock-up the idea and make some measurements, so that will need to wait until the post-corona period and I will make some copies.
What are the thoughts on an industrial switching section with Narrow Gauge trackage? Would that look completely unbelievable?
groundeffectsYou may want to try this suggestion to see if your track diagram works for you. If I see a track plan somewhere that has an interesting look or has potential operational interest for me, I like to use Kato sectional track to try the idea out. It doesn't have to be exact, just close enough so you can see if you like it.
.
Jeff, as you can see in the earlier posts, I also use Kato and other track components to mock up track arrangements.
I looked through the lonks Byron shared. I found some shortened versions of the Timesaver that bring it down to 12 by 48 inches. I also found some other little track arrangements that look interesting.
I think I found two or three that could do what I want (waste time).
Hi Kevin,
I built a timesaver when I constructed a N scale coffee table layout about 10 or so years ago. The time saver is incorporated inside a loop of track and features a small harbor. The time saver was interesting to operate, but after a while I got a bit tired of it due to the switching limitations (an engine plus 1 car). It didn't really duplicate track diagrams seen on maps. I'm glad I tried it, but for my next layout I don't plan to rebuild a timesaver, I'd rather use a prototype track diagram that isn't so much a puzzle but is based on an actual location (think LDE).
You may want to try this suggestion to see if your track diagram works for you. If I see a track plan somewhere that has an interesting look or has potential operational interest for me, I like to use Kato sectional track to try the idea out. It doesn't have to be exact, just close enough so you can see if you like it. You can also tweak the plan and see what works and what doesn't. Anyway, you may want to give it a try.
Just a thought,
Jeff
I built a mock-up of the timesaver using nothing but #6 swicthes, and it was only 12 inches longer, just a tad over 74 inches.
My space saving idea I am willing to declare a failure for my desires.
I am going to look through Byron's link for an interestting layout in the 12 inch by 48 inch size.
You could try fiddling with curving some of the timesaver into downtown Centerville. That would use more space over all most likely but it could use more of the space you want to use! However there would then be the issue of coupling on curves, which is difficult at best!
If you like the idea you’ll have to fiddle with it to see if it will work!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
Colorado Ray why not model the 1880's era with 30 ft cars? Ray
SPSOT fan what if you built it in some narrow guage, perhaps an industrial railroad. HOn2 1/2
Both of these ideas are possibilities to make it work.
The below pictures show what I am working with. I made a mock-up of the entrance from the visible layout into staging.
The tiles are 12" square, my floor is a handy planning grid.
This shows where the Timesaver is planned to go, above the curved tracks. The Timesaver is in green. The area in the orange box will be downtown in the city of Centerviille.
You see, 5 feet covers more track than I really want hidden. 4 feet 6 inches would be better.
I will keep thinking about it.
SeeYou190 Any ideas are appreciated.
Any ideas are appreciated.
What if you built the timesaver in N scale instead of HO? This would work especially well if the timesaver was in the back of your layout (i.e. farther from the isle than HO tracks) in order to make a bit of forced perspective! And you’d definitely fit the timesaver in alot less space!
Now if you want to keep it in HO scale (N scale would look very strange in front of HO!) them what if you built it in some narrow guage, perhaps an industrial railroad. HOn2 1/2 (which is HO scale N guage) would work well!
Since the timesaver is to be a stand alone layout; why not model the 1880's era with 30 ft cars?
Ray
If you are willing to stray from the traditional John Allen Timesaver arrangement, there are many designs found on Carl Arendt's Micro Layouts Pages
Arendt Timesavers
Edit: Note also that Inglenooks can be a bit smaller
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Well... this stinks.
Even with the super compact #2 WYE turnouts, the whole thing is still just a tad over 5 feet long. I really need to get it down to 54 inches. It does not look like a timesave built into my layout will be possible as I hoped.
Yes, and on the right side where both those tracks have 2 diffenenrt industries - each of those is really just one spot with either a 3 or 2 car capacity.
If you add in specific door spots or multiple buildings sharing a siding like that, it might make for a more interesting game, although it would also make it more likely that you could set up impossible to solve solutions. Unless you ALWAYS removed the contraint that already spotted cars must remain in place - if instead you say they can be moved (hmm, add a penalty move because any unloading requipment would have to be disconnected and any workers cleared away...) but must be restored to position even if they weren't part of the cars being switched, it could work. Further stretching the bounds of reality but could livenup the game.
rrinker there are 5 spots. Some can hold multiple cars. The original spats are the two at the top which hold 3 cars each, the two lower left which hold 2 cars each, and the far right which holds 2 cars.
OK, so where I have the loading dock in the middle of the run-around, that destination should be eliminated.
Thank you.
For the purposes of the game, there are 5 spots. Some can hold multiple cars. The original spats are the two at the top which hold 3 cars each, the two lower left which hold 2 cars each, and the far right which holds 2 cars.
Original rules had 5 cars set up, and one had to be delivered to each spot. Later additions had a random number of cars to be delivered to each spot, never more than the spot could hold. So the upper left, might get 0-3 cars. Bottom left, 0-2, etc. The really trick one was if the middle left and the right both got 2 cars. Place them at the wrong time and you kill your runaround.
For the purposes of the game, the start position for each player is set up exactly the same, and judgement can be based on either time taken, or number of moves. Pretty sure the orginal John Allen one, the loco moved at a set speed, you just had a toggle to change direction.
BTW the original Timesaver survived the fire, and is still around today.
rrinker I used to cheat on those puzzles with the 15 pieces and 16 spots
OK, so the classic John Allen Timesave plan has spots for 15 cars.
How many cars are you supposed to play with? I have always heard it was five, then plus the locomotive, you occupied six spots, and have nine remaining.
I do not think it would be possible, or any fun, to do it with 13 freight cars and a locomotive so you only have one empty spot.
I used to cheat on those puzzles with the 15 pieces and 16 spots - pop them all out and put it back together with them in the right order!
cuyama SeeYou190 I've been waiting all day for Cuyama to show up and respond to my thread, and all I get is a "+1"? . Personally, I don't like the puzzle aspect of just moving a single empty slot around, which is the challenge of a Timesaver. I have actually run on one of John Allen’s original Timesavers at a Pacific Coast Region show. For me, meh.
SeeYou190 I've been waiting all day for Cuyama to show up and respond to my thread, and all I get is a "+1"? .
Personally, I don't like the puzzle aspect of just moving a single empty slot around, which is the challenge of a Timesaver. I have actually run on one of John Allen’s original Timesavers at a Pacific Coast Region show. For me, meh.
Alton Junction
cuyamaNo need to wait around for me, I don't have much to add on Timesavers.
Byron, Thank you for responding. I don't comment on your posts very often, because layout design is not my thing, and I am very poor at it for sure.
However, I enjoy reading your thoughts and oppinions even if I don't leave a comment. You really seem to have a thorough understanding about layout design and are very constructive when you respond.
Thank you for what you said. The reason for the WYEs is because the length needed to clear the adjacent track is less than with a standard turnout.
I will mock it up this weekend and see how it looks.
SeeYou190I've been waiting all day for Cuyama to show up and respond to my thread, and all I get is a "+1"? . I need to know if there are any potential unknown problems to building a Timesaver more compact by using WYE turnouts. . Can I benefit from your wisdom and experience?
No need to wait around for me, I don't have much to add on Timesavers. Personally, I don't like the puzzle aspect of just moving a single empty slot around, which is the challenge of a Timesaver. I have actually run on one of John Allen’s original Timesavers at a Pacific Coast Region show. For me, meh. But YMMV
In about the same space, Linn Westcott’s Switchman’s Nightmare could provide more realistic switching action. But that’s not what you asked.
If you want to use wye turnouts, it probably will work fine, as long as they are not too tight for the equipment. Just pay attention to the length in the clear for the runaround and the spurs, since that’s the point of the original puzzle.
Byron
cuyama+1
I've been waiting all day for Cuyama to show up and respond to my thread, and all I get is a "+1"?
I need to know if there are any potential unknown problems to building a Timesaver more compact by using WYE turnouts.
Can I benefit from your wisdom and experience?
rrinkerBut it's also nothing like actual switching.
+1
It's meaningless to watch someone run a Timesaver if you don't have the intial position and the desired finish in front of you - it looks just like you say, a bunch of aimless flipping and flopping around for no apparent reason. If you had an idea of which cars need to go where, it would make more sense the moves being made.
But it's also nothing like actual switching.
rrinker I was mainly directing that at Rich, who said after watching 2:36 of the Timesaver video, he didn't want to switch cars any more. --Randy
I was mainly directing that at Rich, who said after watching 2:36 of the Timesaver video, he didn't want to switch cars any more.
I offered that comment mostly tongue in cheek.
But, honestly, watching that guy sitting there, flipping switches...or whatever he was doing, had me yawning.
Rich
SPSOT fanKevin have you though about the double timesaver?
This will be in the city of Centerville on my eventual layout, so it will not be a double.
As I said in the opening post, this will be built onto the hinged section that covers the entry into staging, so it will not connect to other trackage. It is intended to be a pure Timesaver as thought up by John Allen.
I am using small WYE switches to make it as short as possible. I hope I can mock it up this weekend and get an idea how big it will be.
I have seen many fine examples of Timesavers being built into layout trackage.
rrinker A Timesaver doesn;t reflect real switching operation in the least. It's strictly a game.
Yep, I get that.
rrinkerit doesn't save any time, it's a time WASTER.
I also get that.
Just chatting along with everyone else. I'm getting over a messed up knee thing, so I'm spending way more time sitting here, instead of my normal routine.
Mike.
My You Tube
A Timesaver doesn;t reflect real switching operation in the least. It's strictly a game. Some will say "John Allen LOVED the Timesaver" - yes, as a GAME, after the real operations on the GD were done, a few die-hards would be invited upstairs with John to shoot the bull and play the Timesaver game. At least, according to some who were there, like Andy Sperandeo
In the context of a game - hey, it's played with trains, how bad can it be? It's fun. Many train shows, some group brings one and lets anyoen have a go in return for a small donation.
There was a period when most every track plan had a Timesaver stuffed in at one of the towns. One author ALWAYS included at least one TImesaver is all his plans.
The name Timesaver itself is another classic John thing - it doesn't save any time, it's a time WASTER.
AN even simpler puzzle is the Inglenook - and even better, there are plenty of examples of the track arrangement existing in the real world. SO you cna incorporate one of those in a layout and no one would be the wiser. Depending on how you route cars to spots, you could do it simply most times, with no real puzzling invovled, just drop the empties, pick up any loads. Or you could direct enough cars to the area that the tracks are filled and you have to actually solve the puzzle to get your train switched out.
Sometimes, I watch the real thing, on VRF's Waupaca, WI cam. A local shows up, and switches the Waupace Foundry, Plant #1, but it also drags along cars for other industries, like the Foundry's plants #2 and #3.
Usually mid afternoon. Sometime I wonder, just how long it takes for the conductor to get out of the cab, and throw a switch.
If the length of that video was as long as the real thing takes, it would be about a 8 hr. video!
Never got into switching puzzels. I haven't switched the industries on my layout in a long time. I better move some cars around before I take any more photos, or somebodys going to call it out. But, Photobucket hasn't straightened out my account yet, no need to take pics I can't show.