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Speaking of adhesives.. (bit of a rant)

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Speaking of adhesives.. (bit of a rant)
Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:55 AM

 As they work on my basement, I am reminded again why I think Liquid Nails is absolute JUNK. Extruded foam insulation is being used, and they are using the foam safe Liquid Nails for Proejcts to adhere the foam panels to the block walls of my basement - well, trying to anyway. Most of it is not stickign AT ALL.

 This is exactly my experience using it years ago to build a test layout, I took to sections of 2x8 extruded foam, and used Liquid Nails for Projects to glue the two together, and to some supporting boards to hold them together. Once it set - it all just popped apart.

 And their 'regular' product as well, not for use of foam because it will eat it - I used it to attach a new toilet paper holder in the bathroom of that house. Let it set up for a week. Stuck in a roll of toilet paper - and the light spring in the tube popped the end pieces right off the wall. All surfaces were cleaned, tried again, waited TWO weeks - same thing. 

 The LAST brand I'll ever buy for this sort of thing - either the foam safe or for other uses with the standard construction adhesive. Amazing how poor it worked. 

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 12:30 PM

I've learned many times over, that sticking something to a concrete, or concrete block was is ify, at best, no matter how dry and warm you think the wall may be.

Even after overnight bracing, it's still a long shot.

Your supposed to apply the adhesive, press the panel against the wall, then pull the panel back out a bit, let some of the solvent vent, and then restick, like contact cement.

Did they put furring strips/studs on the wall? or is the plan to install the insulation, than studs, more insulation, and drywall over it all?

They make a plastic anchor that works great.  Use a hammer drill to drill the hole, usually 5/16", and drive in the anchor.

I've used these:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plasti-Grip-3-1-2-in-Plastic-Masonry-Fastener-HDPMF3500/302244947?mtc=Shopping-B-F_D22-G-D22-22_4_INSULATION-Generic-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D22-G-D22

Mike.

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 12:37 PM

Maybe they reformulated it? 

Don't know about foam safe adhesives, but I had to undo a project someone else must have done years ago by using adhesives and I had to chip it off the concrete to remove it, and sometimes a bit of the concrete went with it.

- Douglas

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 1:07 PM

When I was ready to glue the foam to the open grid I used PL300. It said to push into place and pull off to let vent. I am glad I got it in the right spot the first time as it was not coming off to vent, no way, no how. 12 years later I either have to cut the wood or the foam to remove a bit as the PL is like cement.

Brent

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Posted by ROBERT PETRICK on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 1:10 PM

Two words: ceramic tile mastic.

I've had very good luck using it with rigid insulation (pink, white, and blue).

Robert 

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:17 PM

 Well, PL300 is made by Loctite, which has a very good reputation with their other products. Different company makes Liquid Nails products, so maybe PL300 works better. I just know I will never buy any Liquid Nails brand anything. PL300, if the opportunity arises, I may well try.

 My previous layout was 2 layers of 2" extruded foam over a thin layer of plywood (for something to screw the switch motors to). I laminated this with yellow glue. Took forever to dry (because of the foam), but it stayed together - I cut the sections apart, movers tossed them in their truck, and then piled them up in my new basement. I went through all of them to remove the servos and controllers, and they got hauled to the junk man's truck, after sitting there stacked up for a few years. None of them was peeling apart, not between the foam layers, and not between the foam and plywood.

                     --Randy

 


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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:31 PM

ROBERT PETRICK
Two words: ceramic tile mastic.

.

That is three words, but you are still 100% correct.

.

I have built lots of Cosplay Props out of foam board, and tile mastic (like you use to attach tiles to a bathroom wall), holds completely durable.

.

It it will take the abuse of a Cosplay Prop, it will stand up to Model Railroad use.

.

-Kevin

.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:12 PM

Ket Patterson still uses it to glue his plywood fascia to the foam, but he also routers in a groove with real wood (glued with gorilla glue) into the foam, that he can nail to with a pneumatic air gun. 

Foam to foam I've seen him use both gorilla glue and that spray foam.  Gorilla glue both expands and need water as an activator.  I'm not sure  how would keep a sheet of insulation pressed to the concrete block.  The foam also expands.

 

Henry

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:29 PM

Randy's talking about sticking the foam to a concrete masonry wall.

Robert's idea with the tile mastic is good.  Might still need to be braced.

The problem with basement walls, no matter how good the mason or contractor is that built it,  they are anything but a flat surface.

Real easy to glue foam to foam, foam to wood, masonite, etc., but not to a basement wall.

That's why I like the mechanical fasteners.  Used them work alot to insulate the outside of foundation walls.

Mike.

 

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Posted by selector on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:52 PM

LePage, Randy.

I only use PL300.  When I have plaster/hydrocal tunnel portals that I want to place here and there, erect on some cookie-cutter ply, I place a dollop of the PL300 under their column ends, stick them in place, prop them up to ensure they set vertical, and forget about it for about two days, sometimes more.  It's stiff and taffy-like for days, even weeks, but after a couple of days the item will stay put.

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Posted by York1 on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 4:24 PM

rrinker
Extruded foam insulation is being used, and they are using the foam safe Liquid Nails for Proejcts to adhere the foam panels to the block walls of my basement - well, trying to anyway. Most of it is not stickign AT ALL.

 

Randy, I have block walls in my basement with foam and then drywall over it all.

I'm not sure why sticking the foam to the block is such a big deal.

My entire basement is framed with 2 x 3 lumber.  There is a two-inch and a one-inch foam panel sandwiched together.  The foam panels sit between these studs.  The studs are attached to the concrete basement floor and the ceiling (first floor floor joists).

None of the foam was glued into place.  It was set between the studs and the drywall went over it.

Unless you're not drywalling the walls, I don't see any advantage to having the foam glued to the block.

Since I'm not an expert, I could be completely wrong about this, so please be kind to me if I am.

John  --  Saints Fan  

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Posted by saronaterry on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 5:16 PM

BATMAN
I used PL300

Plus one!

Terry

 

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 6:38 PM

York1

 

 
rrinker
Extruded foam insulation is being used, and they are using the foam safe Liquid Nails for Proejcts to adhere the foam panels to the block walls of my basement - well, trying to anyway. Most of it is not stickign AT ALL.

 

 

Randy, I have block walls in my basement with foam and then drywall over it all.

I'm not sure why sticking the foam to the block is such a big deal.

My entire basement is framed with 2 x 3 lumber.  There is a two-inch and a one-inch foam panel sandwiched together.  The foam panels sit between these studs.  The studs are attached to the concrete basement floor and the ceiling (first floor floor joists).

None of the foam was glued into place.  It was set between the studs and the drywall went over it.

Unless you're not drywalling the walls, I don't see any advantage to having the foam glued to the block.

Since I'm not an expert, I could be completely wrong about this, so please be kind to me if I am.

 

Reading again.  Yes.  Building finished walls along a concrete basement wall would not involve attaching anything to the basement wall (as mentioned, they are not flat anyway).  The top plate attaches to the rafters and the pressure treated bottom plate gets fired into the floor, then insulation in between the studs.  Much of the time its simply fiberglass batten.

I'm sure Randy and his contractor must be doing some other prep work first?

- Douglas

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 6:46 PM

rrinker

 As they work on my basement, I am reminded again why I think Liquid Nails is absolute JUNK. Extruded foam insulation is being used, and they are using the foam safe Liquid Nails for Proejcts to adhere the foam panels to the block walls of my basement - well, trying to anyway. Most of it is not stickign AT ALL.

 This is exactly my experience using it years ago to build a test layout, I took to sections of 2x8 extruded foam, and used Liquid Nails for Projects to glue the two together, and to some supporting boards to hold them together. Once it set - it all just popped apart.

 And their 'regular' product as well, not for use of foam because it will eat it - I used it to attach a new toilet paper holder in the bathroom of that house. Let it set up for a week. Stuck in a roll of toilet paper - and the light spring in the tube popped the end pieces right off the wall. All surfaces were cleaned, tried again, waited TWO weeks - same thing. 

 The LAST brand I'll ever buy for this sort of thing - either the foam safe or for other uses with the standard construction adhesive. Amazing how poor it worked. 

                                    --Randy

 

 

Why are they using rigid foam insulation?

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 7:15 PM

 Why not? It's thin, lot less wasted space than using rock wool. And I only need light insulation, despite the cold, AND witht he heat shut off, the basement is still toasty warm. And it doesn't get hot in the summer.

                              --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 7:57 PM

rrinker

 Why not? It's thin, lot less wasted space than using rock wool. And I only need light insulation, despite the cold, AND witht he heat shut off, the basement is still toasty warm. And it doesn't get hot in the summer.

                              --Randy

 

 

But it always has voids between it and the framing. I don't know how thick your framing is, but even R11 fiberglass would provide plenty of insulation in a basement.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 8:38 PM

 If there is, it's very little, they built this tight, on the two walls they have up so far. 

Where there's any chance of moisture - regular insulation bats will mold and mildo. Foam won't. 

 Also thought of somethign else - half the electrical outlets will be installed high, so power supplies and such for the upper deck will be able to sit on the top of the upper level valance, instead of having cords snake through everything. Plus that gives a perfect break for the dual circuits - upper level and lower level.

                                   --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by York1 on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 8:49 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
But it always has voids between it and the framing.

Since my walls are covered with sheetrock, I can't say for certain, but the few walls I have modified over the years showed the foam was wedged so tightly in between the studs that I had to break some of it to get it out.

My basement is not damp, but I wonder if the foam was used because some basement walls are damp.

John  --  Saints Fan  

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 8:58 PM

Mold and mildew are fungus. I suppose fiberglass gives them more surface area to grow but they don't need either foam or fiberglass for the nutrition.

My basement wall developed micro cracks because the drain spouts dumped their water next to the foundation.  When I fixed that, the leaks stopped. 

Henry

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 9:07 PM

BigDaddy
My basement wall developed micro cracks because the drain spouts dumped their water next to the foundation.  When I fixed that, the leaks stopped. 

When I was doing home inspections, that was the wet basement problem, probably 95% of the time.

When pointed out, some would add more bark chips, or decorative stone, thinking they "raised the grade" and fixed the grade/down spout issue.

Wrong.

Mike.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 9:22 PM

rrinker

 If there is, it's very little, they built this tight, on the two walls they have up so far. 

Where there's any chance of moisture - regular insulation bats will mold and mildo. Foam won't. 

 Also thought of somethign else - half the electrical outlets will be installed high, so power supplies and such for the upper deck will be able to sit on the top of the upper level valance, instead of having cords snake through everything. Plus that gives a perfect break for the dual circuits - upper level and lower level.

                                   --Randy

 

Well, just my view, but if you have moisture, you will end up with problems with mold on framing and drywall no matter the type of insulation. Vapor barrier between the masonry and framing is one way to protect against that.

Not sure I understand what the wiring has to do with insulation, except that wiring is easier with fiberglass?

Is the basement a walk out or fully below grade? While current new construction codes require basement insulation, I'm not a big fan of too much insulation in basements completely below grade. They are already 55 degrees or better all year long.

Insulating the sills is way more important than the walls....

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by NittanyLion on Tuesday, January 7, 2020 10:03 PM

mbinsewi

 

When pointed out, some would add more bark chips, or decorative stone, thinking they "raised the grade" and fixed the grade/down spout issue.

Wrong.

Mike.

 

We just bought a house this summer and the sellers lost out on a good $20k because of a couple hundred bucks worth of down spout extensions. 

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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 6:59 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 Well, just my view, but if you have moisture, you will end up with problems with mold on framing and drywall no matter the type of insulation. Vapor barrier between the masonry and framing is one way to protect against that.

Not sure I understand what the wiring has to do with insulation, except that wiring is easier with fiberglass?

Is the basement a walk out or fully below grade? While current new construction codes require basement insulation, I'm not a big fan of too much insulation in basements completely below grade. They are already 55 degrees or better all year long.

Insulating the sills is way more important than the walls....

Sheldon 

 

Agreed.  The walkouts should be insulated, at least the outside walls. 

Totally undergrade doesn't need insulation since its 55 degrees anyway.  Just a dehumidifyer and a heat duct takes care of summer and winter, IMO.  Our previous "finished" basement in Indiana, we simply painted the poured concrete walls and ran some conduit for a couple of electrical outlets.  Used plaster to fill in the little voids in the walls. It had that industrial look to it, but very comfortable year round.  The train room required building separate backdrops, which don't look as nice as fiished walls.

If the layout is going to occupy the entire basement, I certainly see why wanting finished walls would be desired.

Not sure why attaching foam to the walls is the preferred way.

- Douglas

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 7:49 AM

 How is it easier to run wiring with fiberglas? The stud vacities are completely open and free for wires to be pulled, the foam is behind the stud wall.

Yes, it's a partial walkout (raised ranch, one wall is the garage wall, and there is a narrow front with a door into the basement next to the garage. Rest is underground. 

Moisture source was taken care of a few years ago with new gutters and downspouts to replace the leaky old (original) jointed ones. Walls were treated before installing the foam.

Guess I am most used to fiberglass insulation bats with the paper facing - the paper certainly is a mold haven. 

                                           --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:10 AM

I've seen that done, with a raised ranch, where close to 4' of the wall is not underground, putting insulation against the wall, then a frame wall in front of it.

We also call those bi-levels, or split levels, where 4' of the basement is buried, and the top 4' is exposed.

My daughter's is built that way, walk in the main entrance, and go down 6 steps to the basement floor, or up 6 steps to the main living area.

We furred out and insulated the entire lower level, from the basement floor to the ceiling, taking particular attention to the sill area.

Are your contractors going to hang and finish the drywall, ready for you to paint?

Mike.

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Posted by davidmurray on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:50 AM

Here in southern Ontario, and many northern States in the USA  the winter frost line can be as much as 4' deep.  For this reason building codes here specify insulating 4' below grade, or to the floor, which ever is less.

Foam doesn't absorb/retain water the way batt insulation may.  Vapour barrier should go on the winter warm side of insulation.

Building methods are improved over time, and regional needs vary.

Dave

 

David Murray from Oshawa, Ontario Canada
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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:25 AM

 My house is definitely not a split level, I grew up in a split level. Half basement, half flight up to level with laundry and family room, another half flight up to kitchen/dining/living over the basement, another half up to master bedroom, one extra bedroom, and the bathroom over the family room, and another half flight up to what ended up being th ebiggest bedroom (mine) over the kitchien/living/dining.

My current house is a true raised ranch, set in a hill. all living quarters are on one level. Underneath is the basement and garage, I'd have a HUGE basement if not for the garage being fully under the main level, it's an extra-large garage, 2 cars+ wide, and 2 cars deep. Except for the wall between the basement part and the garage, and the front entry door, it's all below ground except the upper foot maybe of the basement walls.Only good thing they did witht he design of this house was make the basement walls exactly 8 feet high. Each stud has to be trimmed to fit between the header and sill plate, but the foam sheets go on as-is, and so will the drywall.

ANd yes, they are going to install and tape the drywall. They would paint it, too, but my GF was like "we can do this in a weekend" so it took a significant chunk off the price, but I am holding her to it - the walls need to get painted before they can hang the drop ceiling and finish the job, so the longer it takes to paint, the more delayed the whole project is.

Tasks that I am keeping DIY include getting all the staples (from the old carpet) out of the stairs, sanding and painting said stairs, and installing hand rails. 

                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:28 AM

davidmurray

Here in southern Ontario, and many northern States in the USA  the winter frost line can be as much as 4' deep.  For this reason building codes here specify insulating 4' below grade, or to the floor, which ever is less.

Foam doesn't absorb/retain water the way batt insulation may.  Vapour barrier should go on the winter warm side of insulation.

Building methods are improved over time, and regional needs vary.

Dave

 

 

Yes, they vary quite a bit by region, Randy and I are in the Mid Atlantic, were the 100 year frost is only 24". Foundations are only required to be 36" below grade, and vapor barriers are only needed/used in some situations.

I am a historic restoration consultant and residential designer by trade. Codes are often created to suit a number of political and social goals as well as health and safety. 

And the risk/reward of making a building too "tight" is still up for debate.

Sheldon

Sheldon

    

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Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:30 AM

I took a slightly different approach.  I had a similar issue in one corner of my "bi-level", where previous owners just let a downspout discharge right at the foundation.  I know this is shocking, but this caused water damage below on the block wall!  I know, right?!?  I put in new gutters and downspouts with extensions. 

Anyway, it took me a long time but I ripped out the old paneling and wood in that part of the basement and spent a lot of time cleaning the block.  I never had the block tested, but it definitely had efflorescence and mildew on it.  After treating I sealed any small cracks with DAP concrete filler and coated it with 3 coats of Zinsser WaterTite paint.  

Although it is more of a pain for model railroading, I refuse to finish my basement.  After a number of years of work I'm back to the bare block walls, which have all been painted.  The exterior walls are all sealed with WaterTite.  My thinking is that if there IS an issue with either cracking or mold growth, and I have everything behind drywall and/or insulation, I won't know -- not until it becomes a BIG issue.  

Right now I'm working on building a 2x4 frame of sorts on which to mount my layout backdrop (definitely more difficult than just being able to attach my hardboard right to a drywall wall), but I will still be able to monitor the condition of my exterior walls and deal with problems early on.

Andy

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Posted by York1 on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:32 AM

I'm not sure about the places you all live, but in my area, all basements built in the past 20 years have to be insulated floor to ceiling, regardless of how deep.

John  --  Saints Fan  

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