What structures, & where am I going to place them on my central peninsula deck area??
Basically this is the planning for the other half of peninsula area adjacent to my container terminal.
Carfloat Possibilty
Lets begin with the biggest space hog, the car-float and its companion the loading apron. Originally I had no intentions to place such an item on my layout,..even though I had all the Walthers kits. It was only when I happenstance acquired a Frenchman River carfloat at a local flea market recently, that I began to give the idea some more thought.
I placed it out on the end of my peninsula,...and it just so happened it was located directly across the aisle from the other waterfront scene I had gotten from an estate sale.
That waterfront scene already has several tug boats on it, and even a small coal barge itself.
In fishing terminology, I was 'hooked'.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I needed some other structures in this port peninsula. One that came to mind right away was the Walthers 'Municipal Pier Terminal'
Baltimore had a number of these same type structures on their waterfront in the early days,...and even today there is still one very similar structure in the Fells Point area. I seem to recall seeing a photo of several of these pier street terminals on a cobble stone street with rails that the infamous B&O docksiders used to roam. Can't find those particular images at the moment, but here is something like it,...
I was going to have my rail cars entering such a pier/warehouse thru the front door, then out thru the back door onto my carfloat. Humm, do I have enough space for that? Turns out I might, but perhaps a lot of 'condensing'. My first mock-up.... That big rectangular piece of white paper represents the full foot-print of the Walthers kit that feeds the apron, then the carfloat. As you can see, in order to get the pier terminal bldg to clear the travel of the container crane the terminal bldg must overhang the edge of the peninsula deck just a bit,...about 2.5”. I could live with that slight excursion into the aisle.
I even found that the Walthers tug boat might be allowed to sit next to the carfloat with only a slight excursion into the aisle,..
I now had practically no trackage in the front yard of the pier terminal to stage any cars that would be loading onto the carfloat? Plus I had no idea of how some sort of switcher engine was going to manage this loading operation,...pushing, pulling, whatever??
I had one other desire,...a dockside crane down in the carfloat docking area that might load other barges from a track under it. Could I get a single long track to run down to this dockside crane at the peninsula tip?....perhaps that nice companion crane that Walthers pairs up with its pier terminal??.....something like this... (the crane in the photo is NOT the correct one, just sat there for clarification)
As can be seen the paper template of the terminal bldg needs to be 'trimmed'. In other words one side of the terminal building needs to be cut off. I wonder what this would look like?
That 'dockside crane track' could also provide some temp storage for some of the cars that would be waiting to load aboard the carfloat.
A carfloat terminal requires careful planning and design if you intend to really switch it. Mine is inadequate. I squeezed it in, and sacrificed an appropriate block of sidings for unloading and loading. Consider that a priority, not just a "nice to have."
I built my terminal mostly by creating scratchbuilds from DPM modulars. This gave me flexibility and an old-time brick look. My only large building was a flat, the back side of the Walthers Centennial Mills kit. This is some of the buildings around the terminal:
Another mistake I made was going with real girder rail and cobblestone from Proto 87. The result looked beautiful, but the tiny rail sections are difficult to align and lay, and power connection is awkward. It was prone to derailments as the grooves were not very deep. This stuff is really more suitable for trolleys than pushing strings of light freight cars.
Here are the cobblestones:
I would avoid anything between the float and the aisle. This will be an obstacle to operation. Even in a perfect derailment-free world, you will need to throw turnouts, uncouple cars, and sometimes hand-manage the rolling stock on the float with the old 0-5-0.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Just above I had hinted that I might have to slice a portion of that terminal bldg off,.....and that I might wish to have some track(s) extend back to a bigger dockside crane.
Things were rather tight in this relatively narrow peninsula, so I figured I had to get that terminal kit out of its plastic wrapping and see what its true dimensions were. SURPRISE! It turned out more narrow that the 'footprint' dimensions that Walthers published,...likely because Walthers had included the concrete loading docks on either side of the building. Perhaps I could get away without including these (on at least one side), or make them very brief.
Somehow I saved almost 5” of width over the original template I had fashioned. I got the front face of the building out and laid it over my new paper temple.
Now lets see if I can fit a double track in there leading to the dockside crane? At this stage I had to go back and firm up my spacing for all the container terminal tracks (took time to rework a little, moving the runaround track over ¼” and providing for clearance with the legs of the container cranes). Now I had my confirmed spacing for those container tracks and cranes.
I laid down the 2 dockside tracks I was hoping to fit in, and that determined where the edge of the terminal bldg could be.
I had to move the centerline of my terminal bldg over about an inch towards the edge of the deck to get that all in. This centerline relocation also resulted in my having to move the carfloat and its apron over as well.
Several good details resulted. I would NOT have to cut up the body of the terminal bldg, and I could have 2 full length tracks running back to the dockside crane,....temp storage for cars waiting to be loaded on the carfloat. These 2 tracks and that dockside crane could also be utilized to load other 'unusual' items onto either the carfloat, or any other barge/small ship that could be pulled into that dock.
I'm becoming more convinced that I should include this pier terminal structure in my layout?
What is the purpose of the building? It would be a dangerous place for your dock workers ( Local 7) to work. Rail cars moving back and forth, exhaust/steam from the engine, noise from railcar movements, cannot get from one side of the building to the other if railcar movement is blocking access, not enough volume to store items being loaded and loaded or stored for the next ship or rail car loading, train engineer would have no view of the cars being loaded/unloaded. Is that initial turnout inside or outside of the rear of the building? The building appears to be about 1 plus carlength in length. Your plan was good but now I think you are trying to put too much into the scene. I've been to waterfronts and although they are crowded. Each activity needs a lot of it's own space to operate whether it's an intermodal yard, traveling crane,rail barges need a small yard for shuffling of cars, warehouses.
Well I hope I haven't stepped on your toes and these are my my opinions about observations made while working on or visiting waterfront docks on both coasts.
Mark B.
I know none of this will have any effect, but I'm going to try and explain it.
You have stuff that is mutually incompatible.
The pier building is a warehouse and break bulk facility. You spot boxcars in there, they load/unload the boxcars and move the contents dockside where it s loaded/unloaded into ships. Putting the lead to the car float through the pier building renders the pier unusable.
The car ferry slip has pilings along it that guide the float into the slip. They would interfere with access to the wharf with the crane on it. Plus if you dock a ship/boat/barge at the crane, you block the car float from docking.
You would be much better off picking one thing and doing a good job with it, rather than trying to fit everything and the kitchen sink in a foot square area and none of it working really well.
Personally I would lose the car float. I would have one pier with the Walthers building near the shore and then the last foot or so the open pier with the crane. Run one track down the center of the pier building and one track right along the edge of the pier (along the aisle).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I would also put the pier warehouse elsewhere. As you have positioned it, it covers one of the turnouts. That will have to be operated remotely, and you will have no visible access to check which way it is thrown. That can also be a prime spot for derailments, particularly when pushing a string of cars. With the track inside a building, you can't see the derailment before it escalates, and fixing it will be more difficult.
I would think that road access to the pier terminal would be a necessity as well. Buildings are seldom completely surrounded by water and rail. I learned early on to plan at least some roadways along with my track, from the start and not just as an afterthought.
How far back do you have to go from the carfloat lead track to the turnouts where you will store and retrieve cars? Will this block the main line, even briefly, or interfere with switching the container area?
Brian, I'm in complete agreement with Dave H.
Do you have any track functional yet? Any trains running?
Mike.
My You Tube
I argue for the carfloat, very emphatically. It is like having a universal industry. While a container terminal carries many products, they all go on the same type of rolling stock. A carfloat carries many different kinds of rolling stock, not just box cars, but you can easily imagine tankers, gons and maybe even hoppers. Think about the other industries on your layout. They need raw materials and produce finished goods. You can think of a carfloat as a form of staging, only more scenic and much more of an opportunity for operation.
MisterBeasley I argue for the carfloat, very emphatically. It is like having a universal industry. While a container terminal carries many products, they all go on the same type of rolling stock. A carfloat carries many different kinds of rolling stock, not just box cars, but you can easily imagine tankers, gons and maybe even hoppers. Think about the other industries on your layout. They need raw materials and produce finished goods. You can think of a carfloat as a form of staging, only more scenic and much more of an opportunity for operation.
That is an interesting perspective,...just when I was considering reducing the size of the carfloat by making it a fold down/hide away item. or maybe even just half a carfloat since mine is made in 2 parts??
Going to require some rethinking,....over Christmas dinner.
Maybe just forget the huge Walthers building, and go with just the car float.
It seems they are still used. From 2017: https://portfolio.panynj.gov/2017/02/14/carfloats-on-new-york-harbor-what-goes-around-comes-around/
That Walthers thing is just to big, and doesn't fit.
Merry Christmas!
railandsail That is an interesting perspective,...just when I was considering reducing the size of the carfloat by making it a fold down/hide away item. or maybe even just half a carfloat since mine is made in 2 parts?? Going to require some rethinking,....over Christmas dinner.
My carfloat was built in very tight quarters. I built it as a removable segment, set on pink foam with hardboard sides for protection. I mean to use it as a casette. The shelf it sits on at the end of the apron is a fold-down, narrow with a single heavy leg for support. I needed the fold-down so I could get in behind it.
I anticipate, though, huge problems carrying a full carfloat where everything wants to roll fore or aft. I would need some sort of removable buffers to hold the cars securely during transport. In a perfect world, I would have some sort of tea cart for this.
Revised Plan
It has been suggested by several folks that I get rid of at least one of those big structures in my port facilities area on the outer portion of my peninsula,...perhaps the car float or the pier terminal building. I thought about it all Christmas long, and wasn't able to come up with any satisfying imagine in my mind. I decided to get some of the wall structures of that pier terminal building out of its box, then tape it together to see what the full size building might look like. WOW, I discovered that I had made my original paper footprint image too small. That bldg is 16” long,...not 12”. Now I'm really in trouble,...or not?
For a short period of time I considered leaving that pier terminal bldg off the layout. But once set in place it just looked so inviting as a waterfront item, and one that said Baltimore waterfront (Fells Point) to me. Plus its extra length looked that much more inviting. It could handle two box cars at a time
It was big enough inside that I could well imagine that box cars could be pulled in there, then partially loaded/unloaded by forklifts separating out goods to be stored temporarily in the terminal warehouse vs those that were being carfloated out to some other waterfront destination. (might even be able to leave the roof off of that kit to display such activity?)
Now its time to give Dave's suggestion some more thought. Perhaps I need to modify my carfloat structure so that it only gets full size recognition during operating sessions,..make some sort of extension such as his? At first I thought about putting the 'phantom/removable carfloat' suspended off the entire tip of the peninsula. But that would mean my dock slip for that watercraft would NOT be on peninsula acreage, and thus no need for my dockside crane. I needed some portion of that carfloat (and its slip space) on the peninsula,...thus the 'carfloat half'. The other half would be brought out and set upon an removable extension to the tip of the peninsula.
Now that I have that removable extension piece, why couldn't it support several other watercraft that might make use of that dock slip on occasions,....like a small freighter to be loaded by the dockside crane, or ......
......another tug boat taking a break.
I had to make a modification to those double tracks I originally had come all the back and under the dockside crane, but even that worked out well. I now have a runaround on those tracks for the working switchers.
Brian,
We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on another forum what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do!
Please take this in the spirit that it's intended. Take a step back, think of what you really want to do, write down how you intend to run your layout, whether it's operations, seeing trains run while you do other things, or more of a static display in some areas.
Neal
I think you should get a smaller two track carfloat.
.
The switchwork on the three track carfloat eats up too much length now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Have you thought of putting the pier building at the top of the peninsula, away from both the container terminal and the carfloat? It might help to define a visible scenic dividing line between the port area and the rest of the layout. You could still use the building, even run trains through it. You might be able to spot cars inside, too. At the same time, you can design the track plan without having to work around a large building.
While it's good to have a detailed track plan, sometimes you need to start a bit simpler and let things grow and fill in as you see how it's coming together, what works and what doesn't.
Most carfloat operations also had a carfloat apron. Looks a lot like a bridge but in real life it is used to firmly secure the barge to the track on the land and also adjusts up or down to allow for tidal fluctuations. Walthers makes one and it consumes about 8 to 9 inches of track length.
Mark B
nealknows Brian, We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on another forum what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do! Please take this in the spirit that it's intended. Take a step back, think of what you really want to do, write down how you intend to run your layout, whether it's operations, seeing trains run while you do other things, or more of a static display in some areas. Neal
Couldn't agree more. Listen to Neal's advice.
I suggest that you scrap the pier building. It's meant to go on a pier with tracks embedded in concrete on each side alongside the wharf. The building is intended for offloading lcl cargo and then moving it outside onto the wharf for the ship's crane to load. The way you have it, all the side doors are useless.
Secondly, it's pretty much an anachronism with the container yard adjacent to it. (Btw glad to see only two tracks under the container crane - three tracks made it useless.) Other than in third world countries you don't see very many cargo ships of that type anymore.
Lastly, having the building straddle the float bridge lead was definetly unprototypical. You'd never see that.
Keep the float bridge but move it further from the peninsula end. You might have room beyond the float bridge for the wharf for your traveling crane. You wouldn't see a section of wharf doing double duty for both ships and car floats. The car float would have pilpings to guide the float to the apron and tie to the side. Those likings would prevent a ship from using that portion of the wharf.
With the pier building gone you might have room for a float bridge yard track or two between the lead and the track to the wharf. As you have it there's no place to hold the incoming/outgoing cars when working the car float.
Final advice - less is more.
Ray
MisterBeasley Have you thought of putting the pier building at the top of the peninsula, away from both the container terminal and the carfloat?
Have you thought of putting the pier building at the top of the peninsula, away from both the container terminal and the carfloat?
I could not find a spot big enough for it at that location, and certainly nothing with water around it,..after all it is a "pier" terminal.
Mark B Most carfloat operations also had a carfloat apron. Looks a lot like a bridge but in real life it is used to firmly secure the barge to the track on the land and also adjusts up or down to allow for tidal fluctuations. Walthers makes one and it consumes about 8 to 9 inches of track length. Mark B
Did you notice that I included the apron...the Walthers one ?
I did not notice that the gray plastic was the base of the apron.
Mark
Colorado RayI suggest that you scrap the pier building. It's meant to go on a pier with tracks embedded in concrete on each side alongside the wharf. The building is intended for offloading lcl cargo and then moving it outside onto the wharf for the ship's crane to load. The way you have it, all the side doors are useless.
Did you notice that the side doors facing that one dockside track could be used to unload freight cars with forklifts?
And the other side ramp/doors facing the aisle could be used by trucks (imagined)?
Colorado Ray Secondly, it's pretty much an anachronism with the container yard adjacent to it.
Secondly, it's pretty much an anachronism with the container yard adjacent to it.
Colorado Ray Other than in third world countries you don't see very many cargo ships of that type anymore.
Other than in third world countries you don't see very many cargo ships of that type anymore.
Colorado RayLastly, having the building straddle the float bridge lead was definetly unprototypical. You'd never see that.
Perhaps I will what to move the building a little, but selective compression was involved here.
Colorado Ray Keep the float bridge but move it further from the peninsula end. You might have room beyond the float bridge for the wharf for your traveling crane. You wouldn't see a section of wharf doing double duty for both ships and car floats. The car float would have pilings to guide the float to the apron and tie to the side. Those likings would prevent a ship from using that portion of the wharf.
Keep the float bridge but move it further from the peninsula end. You might have room beyond the float bridge for the wharf for your traveling crane. You wouldn't see a section of wharf doing double duty for both ships and car floats.
The car float would have pilings to guide the float to the apron and tie to the side. Those likings would prevent a ship from using that portion of the wharf.
Colorado RayWith the pier building gone you might have room for a float bridge yard track or two between the lead and the track to the wharf. As you have it there's no place to hold the incoming/outgoing cars when working the car float.
I can use portions of those 2 tracks I have running down to the dochside crane,...and possible some smaller spurs I might yet add out in front of the pier terminal.
Just out of curiosity, since you've posted so many images of the wharf, car float and intermodal all in one area, so to speak, here's my question. Do you have an operating plan on how all of this will flow? Based on all of your research that you're putting in to your railroad, are you building this for operations? Would love to know more... Neal M
Just out of curiosity, since you've posted so many images of the wharf, car float and intermodal all in one area, so to speak, here's my question. Do you have an operating plan on how all of this will flow? Based on all of your research that you're putting in to your railroad, are you building this for operations? Would love to know more...
Neal M
Per your question about the wharf, car float and intermodal all in one area, that central peninsula area of mine is what I am working on planning at this time. I am trying to cover this in 2 subject threads:
1) Industrial & Port Facilities on my Peninsula 2) Center Peninsula Track Planning, …..Container Terminal
As some have said I am trying to put 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag. Granted its true. Basically I like trains running thru a variety of industrial scenes. I don't care to model streets, and cities, and automobiles, etc. I like as wide a selection of industries as I can put on my rr,...and sometimes this can get crowded on a relatively small layout,....and even more so on my relatively narrow peninsula area.
I must confess to NOT being very interested in 'operations' in the past. For one thing I've not been back in the hobby for that long that I ever got involved in how it worked, and secondly I never took the time to study it so I could become knowledgeable about train switching operations. So I am relatively ignorant about the subject, (this is one of the reasons I am asking for help in track planning in several areas on my layout).
I am interested in how I might go about switching engines and cars on different areas of my layout. Perhaps if I do a half-way decent track planning effort, I will learn more about it in the future,..as I try to do some operations. I believe I have provided for ways to bring freight trains into my peninsula area, and a way for the big mainline engines to escape back to their 'facilities'. I would like to do some switching operations to get cars onto the carfloat, and to get cars out to the dockside crane, and to get cars over to the 'allied car repair' facility, etc. I am imaging that I could use that little steam 0-4-4T loco I have, a new B&O docksider, a BLI trackmobile, and several diesel switchers I have to accomplish these operations.
I am still NOT interested in waybills, tracking individual cars, etc, etc.
**************************************
You keep posting images of what you're trying to do and justify it to us. In your mind, it's right. We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on on another post what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do! Please take this in the spirit that it's intended. Take a step back, think of what you really want to do, write down how you intend to run your layout, whether it's operations, seeing trains run while you do other things, or more of a static display in some areas. Neal M
You keep posting images of what you're trying to do and justify it to us. In your mind, it's right.
We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on on another post what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do!
I think you touched on one of my primary interest,...RUNNING a VARIETY of trains thru a VARIETY of industrial landscapes. And yes I can set that in motion with perhaps 2 or 3 trains running while I do some other projects like kitbashing, decoder/sound installations, loco and car tune-up & weathering, etc. And I have a lot to learn about scenery,..which I have always appreciated, but have little knowledge/experience with.
That variety of industrial scenes I like results in my somewhat 'congested scenery. Perhaps I would liken it to a whole bunch of modules set up next to each other,...scene after different scene, butted up next to one another. And these scenes don't always compliment one another, particularly when you are trying to fit as many as possible in a condensed area. My peninsula area is a prime example,...a pier terminal building right next to a container yard ! Even the era considerations are suspect. But I manage to get both on the layout as a whole. I really could think of NO OTHER spot to put that pier terminal,...and carfloat, so it ends up next to the container terminal,...like you might see at a module layout at a train show.
The trains I will be running are also significantly different in types and variety. In this case I am certainly NOT paying attention to a specific era. I have steam of different roads. I have diesels of different roads. I have freight cars of many different types, and eras. I have passenger sets from at least 4 different roads. I have an several different Acela sets. I have an Orient Express set. I even have a Disney type monorail set.
Obviously I am not married to any era. I like to run different trains.
I also enjoy running trains through nicely designed and constructed scenery, including both rural and urban landscapes. But, you really can't run trains through a peninsula. It can serve as a source of cars or a destination, but you can't run through or by a dead end. You will probably need to both build up and break down freight trains elsewhere on the layout. This will involve shuttling short strings of cars, not full length trains. Nothing wrong with this, of course, but is it really what you want?
Instead of a wide time frame for your layout, have you thought of making it dual era, say steam and diesel, with some removable scenery like the carfloat and the container cranes that don't really belong together anyway? The same tracks used for container traffic in later times could have been used for carfloat storage tracks in earlier days.
Cargo ships and car floats didn't occupy the same physical wharf or dock. For one thing, there were typically dolphins (groupings of pilings) to help guide the car float that would be in the way of a cargo ship. For another, they couldn't unmoor the ship while it was loading or unloading and put it out into the harbor to move the car float in and then bring the ship back. It took a long time to unload or load a ship back in the break-bulk cargo days.
Car floats weren't switched through pier warehouse buildings. That would make it very difficult to switch the float and make the warehouse useless.
Car float installations had enough trackage to hold partial cuts off the float so that each track could be unloaded or loaded in increments to keep it from listing, as well as (typically) a track to hold “reacher” flatcars.
If you are simply going to do whatever you want anyway, it seems odd to keep asking questions to try to justify the unjustifiable. Just do it and have fun in the way you like.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Just do it and have fun in the way you like.
That sounds like the best advice.
Since you are determined to make the impossible seem plausible, just do it, and let scenery blend it all together.
I do that all the time.
cuyama If you are simply going to do whatever you want anyway, it seems odd to keep asking questions to try to justify the unjustifiable. Just do it and have fun in the way you like.
It does make it difficult to come up with acceptable advice because the OP seems to ask for advice about making something realistic, but then rejects most of it for what his already determined view of realism is.
That view is fine, but what is the purpose of continually asking questions about realism when the layout isn't really about it?
Just have fun.
- Douglas
DoughlessThat view is fine, but what is the purpose of continually asking questions about realism when the layout isn't really about it? Just have fun.
I agree Brian. Just build what you want and have fun. From your first post in here, and other forums, you have a history of jam packing too much into too little space.
Show us what you come up with, and get trains running, and don't ask for justification of what you have done. Just do it. Your layout is all about what YOU want.
Your statement in an earlier post "somewhat conjested scenery" is an understatement.
MisterBeasley Have you thought of putting the pier building at the top of the peninsula, away from both the container terminal and the carfloat? It might help to define a visible scenic dividing line between the port area and the rest of the layout. You could still use the building, even run trains through it. You might be able to spot cars inside, too. At the same time, you can design the track plan without having to work around a large building.
There was only one other spot on my lower peninsula that had enough real estate where I might relocate that pier terminal to. I placed the partial bldg over that spot where I intended to place Allied Rail Rebuilders
I'm not too enthused about it,...not exactly a 'pier/waterside/dock location'.
Justifying Carfloat Loading Track thru my Pier Terminal (Part 1)
Right up front I must admit this is NOT prototypical at all.
Having said that, then WHY did I attempt this terminal location of mine, and with a track right thru the center?
Lack of enough width on my peninsula deck,...plain and simple.
Maybe if I had devoted the whole tip of my peninsula to a Pier Terminal and a Carfloat, I could have created a dock scene like this work of art,..
…...with tracks and cranes on either side, and perhaps a ship loading dock on one side, ….., maybe a carfloat on the other side,.....wonderful scene.
But that would have left me with NO SPACE for a container terminal on my lower deck,...and my basic layout theme of container traffic ( intercontinental railroad) between the west coast and the east coast would no longer be valid.