IRONROOSTER The Milwaukee Road Warrior with a layout height of barely 40" That's the key point. On a former layout I had a duckunder, but the layout height was 58 inches and the height underneath the duckunder was 56.5 inches. It was really easy to duck under even while carrying things. I've tried lower heights but find them unsatisfactory, my current layout is 50" and fortunately I have the space to avoid duckunders (or liftouts). Paul
The Milwaukee Road Warrior with a layout height of barely 40"
That's the key point. On a former layout I had a duckunder, but the layout height was 58 inches and the height underneath the duckunder was 56.5 inches. It was really easy to duck under even while carrying things.
I've tried lower heights but find them unsatisfactory, my current layout is 50" and fortunately I have the space to avoid duckunders (or liftouts).
Paul
Having built a double deck layout with upper deck benchwork in that 58" range, I agree that makes for an easy duck under.
I also learned that I would never want benchwork that high again, so a good lift out is necessary.
Sheldon
The Milwaukee Road Warriorwith a layout height of barely 40"
On the layout I'm presently building, I have a swing gate, that swings in towards the center of the layout. It has a 24" "door" opening. I haven't figured out quite how to rig it electrically yet (I'm DC). That project is a ways down the road, as I have just gotten the plywood sub roadbed and the backdrop installed. After touching up the backdrop and painting clouds and a horizon, I will be ready to lay track. I chose to use a swing gate, rather than a liftout because I have limited space and where to put the section when not installed is a problem. And, I don't particularly like duckunders, no matter how high the benchwork is.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL As for the electrical interlocking of the lift out, for me it is simple. As a DC operator, the entire block on either side is dead if the section is out. Those blocks are longer than any normally operated train. So it would be hard to even back a train off the edge...... Sheldon
As for the electrical interlocking of the lift out, for me it is simple. As a DC operator, the entire block on either side is dead if the section is out. Those blocks are longer than any normally operated train. So it would be hard to even back a train off the edge......
On my layout, also DC, it's equally simple to add a safety zone when the liftout is not in place.I first gap one rail of the approach tracks on either side of the liftout, then run wire from the still-live rails beyond the gaps to a four-pronged female receptacle on the layout's fascia, near the liftout. When the male plug is inserted, it not only activates the rails on the liftout, but also feeds power from those now-live liftout rails to the other two prongs, which in-turn, power the approach rails on either side of the lift-out.
When the liftout is unplugged and removed, the approach tracks revert to non-powered ones.
I'd guess that something similar could be done in DCC, too.
Wayne
The more I have thought about it I'm going to make some adjustments to build a lift-out so I can run continuous as I'd originally planned with a duck under. I'm going to narrow the benchwork to accomodate a lift out section. I can see hating a duck under in short order, and with a layout height of barely 40" I would have to slide under with a car mechanic or furniture dolly. No fun.
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
I have a simple rule with keep alives - I don't use them. No need to. I've never had any issues with locos stalling , even at speed step 1 over turnouts or anywhere else.
Since I use Loksound for all my sound decoders, if I DO need a keep alive, it will be the 3 wire type. Why? Because the 3 wire type can be programmed to provide keep alive for a set amount of time instead of "as long as the capacitor has charge in it"/ I have one loco with a keep alive, it came that way from the factory. I can pick it up and it runs across my desk and almost goes off the edge - I pick it up and place it back on the desk and it will run off the edge a second time if I don;t catch it. That's ridiculous. You would NEVER EVER need keep alive for that much time. The idea is to get across a short dead section, or an unpowered frog - a second or two is MORE than enough time.
The only other option is, instead of having the bridge being up cutting power, instead it cuts in a circuit that generates a DCC broadcast stop command - that way even a loco with a keep alive will get a stop signal, not loss of power, so it will stop. Momentum might still defeat you, if turned up. Plus this needs to be truly isolated - double gaps are not enough, as metal wheels or an all wheel pickup loco would bridge the gaps and link the main DCC system to the stop generator - perhaps frying something.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A fold-up will automatically block one side of the gap, and I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have some sort of block, perhaps not automatic, for the other side as well.
How many of your engines have keep-alive circuits? And are these big engines that handle large trains? Personally, I wouldn't bother with a keep-alive on anything bigger than a tank engine or a trolley.
But you're right. Keep-alives add another complication to a dead track to protect a sometimes-gap.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Randy,
The question of how far should the shutdown track extend has changed with the advent of "keep alives". For small layouts, I think snjroy has the right idea, shut the whole layout off. However, for large layouts great care needs to be taken, as with the keep alive a loco can cover a lot of distance before it comes to a hault. Since I frequently see 100 car trains running on modular club layouts with multiple tracks, at train shows. I would think the wiring would be a nightmare to do. Not sure just how one would do it, but I think some sort of block to come up and block the track, firm enough to hold the approaching train.
Sounds like a new project for some of our mechanical engineers.
Anybody got any ideas?
Goos luck,
Richard
Has anyone tried the liftout bridge designed by Lance Mindheim, see: https://lancemindheim.com/about-us/removable-bridge/
rrinker Nothing is foolproof, but you can make an attempt. How far back do you cut the gaps to isolate a sectionw hen the bridge is up/down/out? Maximum train length? What about that day you run an extra long train to impress some visitors. Bridge is out, but you are backing slowly towards it. How many cars get shoved off the edge before the loco crosses the gaps and gets to the dead section? --Randy
Nothing is foolproof, but you can make an attempt. How far back do you cut the gaps to isolate a sectionw hen the bridge is up/down/out? Maximum train length? What about that day you run an extra long train to impress some visitors. Bridge is out, but you are backing slowly towards it. How many cars get shoved off the edge before the loco crosses the gaps and gets to the dead section?
Don't really like either one. No mater how you make the hinged end and the fixed end you will have movement and alignment problems.Even if you could attach the pivot end and the fixed end on a steel post mounted in concrete , you still need to be able to hold the movable section to a fixed length. Wood grows and shrinks over time , and the pivot (hinge) will wear over time and need to be adjusted. I think to some point it can be made to work but will require upkeep. I would use one rather than have a duck under-has we age, the DU gets to be a PITA! Or at least a pain in the back.
Has anyone tried to build the lift and pivot gate ( May 2014 MRR pg 58) ....considering it for my layout... have an issue with overhead clearance and thought this might work as opposed to a straight lift up gate..
Hi. I used small blocks to elevate the hinges. I second the suggestion to add a switch to shut the power off (see 2nd picture below - it's the dark button embedded in the wood support). I have more than once tried to move a loco while the bridge was up... Simon.
20181004_073416 by on Flickr" alt="" />20181004_073403 by on Flickr" alt="" />
Simon
Henry,
Yes, the hinges are on top of the benchwork. One of the two traveling club layouts I have seen even had the hinges raised on a block of 2x4. As mentioned, the hinges on one are disguised by the burlap, grass mat or whatever you choose. Your scenery is used to conceal the hinges. If you didn't use it often, you could even have the hinges hidden by a removeable building.
Since I plan to have scenery on the moveable portion, I prefer to have it out of harms way.
Have fun,
I have, both, a swing-up and a drop-down section. The drop-down was designed that way because the overhead room was limited. They were both wired directly to the movable sections, then the approaches were fed from them. So, in order to move the sections, power is cut to the approaches via connectors, thus preventing drops into the Concrete Chasm.
0
The tabs extending from the drop-down section are attached to the underside of the section, then clamped in place. I drill a 1/4" hole through the drop-down section and the stationary section. I sand a taper on the ends of 2 1" long dowels, then glue them into the stationary section.
While the sections are still securely clamped, I attach a slide bolt assembly that will hold the drop-down in place.
The picture below shows the diagonal cut in the rails. This allows the drop-down section to be raised smoothly. The drop-down section is secured in place, the track is laid and ballasted bridging the gap, then the gap is cut.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Paul3 At my club, we built a powered lift out section that is 36" square. We purchased a 30" lift mechanism usually used for raising TV sets out of cabinets (and comes with a tethered remote control). For guides, we got one pair of 500 lb capacity 30" drawer slides (because they have no slop in their mechanism). We also got another pair of cheap 30" drawer slides as they are just there for protection of the layout. The motor is mounted on one side only and has a plywood canterlever arm support to hold up the 36" square of layout. The heavy duty drawer slides are mounted on the same side as the motor and support much of the torque force from the canterlever arm. The remaining guides are located on the other side of the opening and keeps elbows from knocking down layout structures. Since the layout track is about 43" off the floor (and goes up to 73" with the lift) and the movable section is about 4" deep, that only leaves about 69" of clearance (or 5' 9"). Since I'm about 6' tall, it's a "nod under" more than a "walk under" (there are serveral club members that don't have to duck at all). Still, it's a heckuva lot better than getting down on your hands and knees to crawl under.
At my club, we built a powered lift out section that is 36" square. We purchased a 30" lift mechanism usually used for raising TV sets out of cabinets (and comes with a tethered remote control). For guides, we got one pair of 500 lb capacity 30" drawer slides (because they have no slop in their mechanism). We also got another pair of cheap 30" drawer slides as they are just there for protection of the layout.
The motor is mounted on one side only and has a plywood canterlever arm support to hold up the 36" square of layout. The heavy duty drawer slides are mounted on the same side as the motor and support much of the torque force from the canterlever arm. The remaining guides are located on the other side of the opening and keeps elbows from knocking down layout structures.
Since the layout track is about 43" off the floor (and goes up to 73" with the lift) and the movable section is about 4" deep, that only leaves about 69" of clearance (or 5' 9"). Since I'm about 6' tall, it's a "nod under" more than a "walk under" (there are serveral club members that don't have to duck at all). Still, it's a heckuva lot better than getting down on your hands and knees to crawl under.
Do you have any pics of this? Pretty heavy duty! I like the idea of a motorized lift - makes sense on a club sized layout. But guessing it could look ridiculous in a ranch house basement...?...
We have a lift up bridge for our club layout. No door hinges, but no super precision machined surfaces, either. The track on it is ballasted but it otherwise makes no attempt to look like a full scene - the hinges for one stick up above the track level. It carries two mains plus a yard lead. Like any of our other sections, it usually lives in the transport trailer, not insualted or climate controlled. It's been around at least 10 years now, back and forth to many many shows, and we have NEVER had an issue with it.
You can;t build sloppy, but neither do you need super precision surfaces. Unlike a home layout, since this is modular, the lift bridge piece includes the threshold, so bridge up, it's sort of a U, brodge closed, it's a flattened O. The track across it is perfectly straight - that makes it easy to keep good enough alignment. Down, the free end rests on a shelf, with a spring laoded latch underneath to hold it down.
Guys, there is a fairly wide range of alternatives for concealed hinging of tilt-ups, if you really must have hinges. Personally I recommend an approach more like a plug door, where you pull it up out of precise alignment and then hinge away, instead of trying to make the hinge part of the alignment.
You could also arrange for the 'lift-out' to pull straight up a couple of inches, then pivot down clearing the 'abutment'. Even cobbling hinges and brackets off the fold-down side shelf on a typing table might be a good start (as long as you keep the final vertical set into position exact, e.g, with four sets of adjustable wedges, not just slots).
You might start by asking Sheldon what he thinks would be the best heavy concealed or 'face-frame' compatible cabinet hinges. There is no reason multiply-articulated hinges could not be used either. In my opinion using top-mounted leaf or barrel hinges is just wrong on a great many levels, since there are better options.
(Of course, while I was fighting the forum software to make this post, Ed documented a perfectly good and relatively simpler thing, with all the necessary workable details...)
rrinker That's exactly it - the hinge has to be above the rails for a lift up. --Randy
That's exactly it - the hinge has to be above the rails for a lift up.
One of the reasons why I went with a drop-down type.
DB_9 by Edmund, on Flickr
A good quality commercial hinge solidly anchored to hardwood then to studs which are anchored to the masonry behind. It is slightly skewed as well.
DB_2 by Edmund, on Flickr
The other end has a 1/4" thick aluminum plate which has two index holes that align with ground steel dowel pins anchored to the benchwork on the open side. The middle hole engages a threaded stud to which I have a hand wheel engaged to support the bridge during operation.
There are two dog-point set screws with locking nuts that can be adjusted to "fine-tune" the level of the rail as it meets the gap.
DB_3 by Edmund, on Flickr
DB_1 by Edmund, on Flickr
I used to use that 12 pin cinch plug to pass-through track, lighting, signal and switch machine power but I have since disabled it. The plug also had a "closed loop" when unplugged it would kill track power and drop the interlocking signals to red.
The duckunder is high enough that it doesn't bother me to pass under several times as needed but it is a simple matter to remove the handwheel and swing the bridge down if I have the need for more frequent passage.
DB_6 by Edmund, on Flickr
In twenty-five years I've never had to make any major refinements or adjustments to it. Very stable.
IF I were to make any improvements or "do-overs" I would have found some sturdy PC board and soldered the rails to the copper face at each of the four track ends, eight for double-track, then cut insulating gaps if needed. I believe it would make rail alignment a little easier.
Regards, Ed
cowmanI'm planning a lift up,
With a tilt down, the ends of the track fall away from one another. How does that work on a lift up, unless the hinge is above the rails?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'm planning a lift up, when I get to doing my benchwork. No need to find a storage spot with it attached at one end. Lift up rather than tilt down, because if you have scenery on the section, it will be out of the way. With a drop down it would be sticking out into traffic.
The ones i have seen have the hinges on top disguised with a piece of painted burlap, to look like a plowed field. A good use for a grass mat also. Buildings or other scenery could be used to hide the hinges.
Noted from above, a keep alive makes a dead section of track to prevent swandives somewhat ineffective. Will have to think on that one as my most recent purchase has a lengthy one.
Good luck,
Good info from all. My plywood is 36" above the floor. I plan to use one 2" foam board on top of that to lay track on. So my level is relatively low - a duck under is definitely not the way to go. Feeling a lot of love for a lift-out or hinge section. My book on trackwork from Jeff Wilson addresses both I believe.
IMG_0522 by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr" alt="" />
The Milwaukee Road Warrior...Question 2: I know people also build lift-out sections where needed. I'm just trying to evaluate if a lift-out with the above mentioned bridge is even possible and what modelers here think of that. I'm sure some of you have lift-out sections. Looking back, are they worth the hassle?
I have two liftouts at the entranceway to the layout. Because they're liftouts, I wouldn't waste money on putting a bridge on either, as the liftouts need to be stored when not in use. I could, of course, leave the liftouts in place, and treat them as duck-unders, but I generally leave them out unless they're needed for operations. Duck-unders are miserable if you need to move things in- or out-of the layout room.
Here's the two liftouts in place...
...and the brackets into which they fit to allow good alignment of the track at both ends...
This indexed plug ensures that it's always plugged-in properly, and allows for a non-powered zone for the tracks leading to the liftouts...
The fixed approach tracks on both levels and both sides of the opening are ended well-back of the opening, so there's no chance of them being damaged when the liftouts are not installed. Nothing to get bumped or for clothing to get snagged, and the track ends are well-secured to prevent any movement that might be caused by moisture or temperature fluctuations (both very unlikely)...
The track on the lift-out portions, to the left in the photo below, is also well-secured, and the rail ends protrude appropriately to match the set-back ends of their respective approach tracks...
...yielding consistently good alignment.
When the liftouts are not required for operations, I simply lean them against the post in the entrance aisleway...
When creating the liftouts, I install the plywood, then lay track continuously from the fixed portion of the layout on one side, to that on the other side. After deciding where I wish to make the cuts in the rails, I securely spike all appropriate parts of all rails near the proposed cuts, then use a cut-off disc in a motor tool to make the cuts.Some care does need to be exercised when installing or removing the liftouts, especially for the former, but they've required very little adjustment over all of the years they've been in use.
selectorI have always had hinged swing-ups
David Popp featured one in Rehab My Railroad vol 10 & 11. He used plans from a Gordon Odegard article July 1990. The thing I like about the design is he uses contact switches on both sides of the swing up that control the power to the approach to the bridge. If the bridge is not in the fixed position, a train can't get close to falling on the floor.......unless you have keep alives.
Knees, backs and shoulders, for that matter, do not improve with age.
I have always had hinged swing-ups. For one thing, with the right construction and 'sharp' gaps where the rails must be that way, you can swing them up and down with impunity. It takes some thinking, some careful assembly, and the right hinges and supports so there's no side-play or bending of the frame such that rail ends get snagged and lifted up out of the small plastic spikeheads. You can slide joiners onto one end prior to lifting, and then slide them back later.
One huge benefit that I figured out long ago is that the hinge, itself, if clean, will offer itself as a member of the electrical continuity components to the rails on the bridge. I put feeders from the nearby bus wires up to one of the screws , one screw per wire, and firm each screw down tight. Then, on the other side of the hinge, feeders under screws on that side run down under the module and up to the rails. You don't need flexing wires here and there. This has worked 100% reliably on two layouts now.