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Ideas for an early diesel era pulp logging operation? Question added about bandsaw blades

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Ideas for an early diesel era pulp logging operation? Question added about bandsaw blades
Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 15, 2019 1:11 AM

Oops!

I deleted my first post in this thread by accident. Can anybody tell me how to get it back or do I have to rewrite it?

I was asking for ideas for a transition era pulpwood logging operation.

Dave

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, April 15, 2019 6:58 AM

I have lots of info from the 80's, but that doesn't help you, so I started searching around.

I found this, loading the logs on end,

Wiki Media syas I can post it.

I found pictures of loading box cars with pulp sticks, from Georgia, and I saw photos of flat cars, many with home made bulkheads, with sticks, and gons were used ( along with the end loading in the above picture) with sticks loaded the perpendiculay way, and logs on end to act as bulkheads, so the load can get stacked higher than sides.

There is a good pictures here, along with info on the trucks used in the 40's and 50's:

http://www.railroad-line.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23128

I found this:

The above photo from John Graybeal's "Along the ET&WNC".

It looks like the main equipment for such loading was manpower!  Also some had steam derricks.

You'll need lots of pulp sticks, boxes full! Laugh

Mike.

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Posted by snjroy on Monday, April 15, 2019 10:15 AM

Hi there. There is some good info and pictures on the net. 

There is this general page:

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/industrial/ont/gallery.htm

And this one for Kaspuskasing

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/industrial/ont/tembec.htm

Simon

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:31 AM

I have always been fascinated by those air-operated contraptions on either side of a flatcar loaded with pulp logs that would push in flat sheets of steel and "even out" the pulpwood log load.  March 1966 MR had an article and a drawing.

Dave Nelson

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Posted by SPSOT fan on Monday, April 15, 2019 12:12 PM

I would like to comment that you could squeeze in a shay if you really wanted, because I do know Klikitat Log and Lumber, a logging operation off the SP&S goldendale branch used shays until 1964. Altenately various small switchers such as GE 70 toners or SW7 could be used or even a small beep. Some obscure motive power served on log lines, notably I know some Weyerhaeuser lines in the northwest bought alco c415s (a personal favorite). This could allow for an excuse to use something differen.

If space is limited you could use trucks to bring logs to the mill and perhaps a GE 44tonner to do switching.

I hope this was helpful.

Regards, Isaac

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Posted by SPSOT fan on Monday, April 15, 2019 12:19 PM

About logging equipment, at least rolling stock, Kadee makes some nice earlier logging kit (mostly log cars, HO scale) and I have seen metal log bunks (I want to say details west but I’m not certain) that can be added to regular flat cars for more modern equipment. If you do N scale Atlas came out with a line of nice modern log cars this month, with some big timber hauling roads (NP, GN, BN, MILW, and either BCrail or PGE, can’t quite recall.

Hope it’s helpful!

Regards, Isaac

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, April 15, 2019 12:27 PM

Pulpwood isn't/wasn't quite as "industrial scale" as large tree logging. Trees suitable for pulpwood are the trees that grow up after the 'good' trees (like white pine) have been harvested and the logging companies have moved on.

Pulpwood logs would be brought down the the railside by trucks. Generally it would just be an open area with from one to several spur tracks for loading gondolas or bulkhead flats with wood. By the 1980's mechanical loading devices would be used - sometimes the trucks would have loading arms attached to them - so logs would normally be 8' long. Earlier, when loading was done by hand, they normally would only be 4'.

Large piles of pulpwood would normally be stacked around the loading area. I've seen pictures where a double-ended loading ramp was built parallel to the track, so a truck could drive up on the ramp to unload.

This link (borrowed from a post on the Classic Trains forum) has some good info:

http://www.state.sc.us/forest/scindust.htm

 

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Posted by mikeGTW on Monday, April 15, 2019 12:32 PM
Dave there is a site you might want to take a look at btsrr.com
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Posted by emdmike on Monday, April 15, 2019 7:02 PM

I would look into either SW's with added dynamic brake housing(someone offered this part to fit the Athearn blue box era SW's) or the Baldwins that another western logging line used.  A C415 leaves you with Overland brass or the poor running/detailed AHM thing from the 1980's.   Maybe Bowser will do that model one day now that they have the Hi-Ad trucks from the C430.   If you want to go steam, one of the Mantua 2-6-6-2 loggers can be found, or for a bit more, one of the older PFM/United brass Shays.  I will not recommend Any of the plastic Shays, but the old AHM/Rivarossi Heiser isnt bad for a plastic geared logger, no real gear issues like the stuff from Bachmann.  Good luck and make sure you post up pics once you start modeling.     Mike

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:27 PM

Thanks everyone for the great information! Lots of ideas to work with.

Any suggestions on how to make tons of pulpwood sticks? I'm thinking maybe some 1/8" x 36" dowels, distressed and then stained first, and then cut to reveal the raw wood ends?

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 6:11 AM

That seems like a good idea, Dave.  I used sticks from the yard, but some of them, as they dried, had pin size holes in the center.

I keep those in the middle of the pile, although, when you see a stack of real pulp wood, you don't notice that.

Your going to need mega piles, much more than I have here.  I cut up enough to fill 4 pulp wood cars, that you see in the picture, plus about 1/2 a load more, so the yard wasn't totally empty.

I set up a "jig" kind of thing, so I could keep advancing the log, and keep cutting, all by hand, very smooth blade Zona saw.

You guys could set up an "assembly line" operation, once all are destessed and stained.

I would try and save the "saw dust" as well.  You'll probably end up with a lot.

In the real world, they're all different diameters, so mix it up a little.

Modern day operations include a truck scale, as that's how the independant logging operations are paid.  I don't know how they did it "back in the day".

Happy sawing!  Laugh

Mike.

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 12:36 AM

mbinsewi
Your going to need mega piles, much more than I have here.  I cut up enough to fill 4 pulp wood cars, that you see in the picture, plus about 1/2 a load more, so the yard wasn't totally empty. I set up a "jig" kind of thing, so I could keep advancing the log, and keep cutting, all by hand, very smooth blade Zona saw.

Hi Mike,

Being one who tends to jump in head first I decided to order the dowels without further thought. I ordered 50 - 36" x 1/8" dowels and 100 - 12" x 5/32" dowels. That will give me approximately 2800 - 8' logs plus some shorter pieces which is a start at least. We could get more 'logs' out of the bundles by cutting shorter pieces and gluing them to blocks set into the middle of the loads but I'm weighing the nuisance factor vs the cost of just buying more dowels if need be. The large background piles at the mill can have false cores obviously.

My son has just scored a decent quality used bandsaw for peanuts and I was thinking of wrapping bundles of maybe 25 dowels at a time in masking tape to cut them. That should make the bundles stable enough to cut en mass. I was thinking that using a fine toothed metal blade might be better to minimize breakout. It will be slow cutting but I don't think that's a problem. A few marks on the ends of the logs won't hurt.

As I mentioned, I will stain the dowels first so that when cut they will have a light coloured center. I am thinking of dry brushing the dowels using two or three different colours as opposed to drenching them with just plain brown.

We will definitely set up a work group to make up the piles and loads. That will be the time consuming part.

I have a scratch built truck weigh scale. I hadn't thought of including that in the scene. Thanks for the suggestion.

Dave

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 6:34 AM

Wrapping in bundles and using the band saw with that fine tooth blade is an excellent idea! Yes

Another thing I did, you see the type of pulpwood car I used in the picture, I glued logs together to make preassembled stacks I can place in the car, using a jig.

Speeds up the process of modeling a loaded, or empty car.  I left quite a few as single sticks to "fill in" as needed, and to stage scenes, with the loader.

What I know of the pulpwood industry is from what I see in Northern WI.  I can imagine certain aspects are probably different in other areas of the country, and in Canada.

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Posted by snjroy on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 7:55 AM

I used dowels in the past to make tender loads. I sanded them first to give them an irregular shape. To increase the texture, i gave a few passes of the side of a file on them. After that I painted them using various mixes of dark grey and charcoal craft paint colors. A bit of drybrushing helps, as well as a wash to reduce the contrasts. I also used a band saw to cut them, but you need a good blade to get a clear cut. Bundles did not work for me - it tended to tear up the fibers instead of clear cuts. 

Simon

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:18 AM

The pulpwood loaders we had in Arkansas andTexas were small operations.  One track with access to both sides of the track.  A loader, a "grabber" on a tractor or back of a truck, maybe a "bump" truck and if it was a really extensive operation, a small shanty.  Trucks would bring in the pulpwood and unload it then they would load it on the cars. 

Not much infrastructure because the loading areas moved around as the areas got logged out.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 18, 2019 12:27 AM

snjroy
I also used a band saw to cut them, but you need a good blade to get a clear cut. Bundles did not work for me - it tended to tear up the fibers instead of clear cuts. 

Hi Simon,

Were you using a wood blade or a metal blade? I don't have a lot of experience with bandsaws but IIRC the teeth on most wood cutting blades are fairly far apart and I can see them tearing at the wood. That's why I thought about using a fine toothed metal blade.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what blade might work best? I'm hoping my son got a decent selection of blades with the saw. I don't want to have to spend a bunch of money on a blade just for this job.

I did think of a solution if there is too much break out on the dowels. That is to use my 10" sanding wheel on my radial arm saw to finish the ends of the bundles. It works really well. I would have to cut the bundles a tad longer to get them to the right finished length.

Dave

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 18, 2019 12:32 AM

dehusman
The pulpwood loaders we had in Arkansas andTexas were small operations.  One track with access to both sides of the track.  A loader, a "grabber" on a tractor or back of a truck, maybe a "bump" truck and if it was a really extensive operation, a small shanty.

Hi Dave,

The lack of large buildings is actually an advantage. We originally thought of putting a lumber mill in the space but it would have been really crowded. Having a simple scene will be a nice contrast to some of the other areas where there will be multiple buildings.

What is a "bump" truck?

Thanks,

Dave

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, April 18, 2019 5:30 AM

All of the pulpwood operations I seen in Southern Ohio,Eastern Ky, and Western W.Va was a siding with one or two tracks for pulpwood cars.

Pulpwood was cut by independent loggers and sold at the pulpwood yard.

The yard its self featured a small office building (like the Atlas shanty) and a loader. 

The yard "scenery" was nothing fancy just torn up ground from the loader and the pulpwood trucks.

As  side note I've seen camping trailers used as a office and was used for paying the loggers for their pulpwood..

Larry

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Posted by Doughless on Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:55 AM

If the operation is going to be modeled as Canadian, I'm thinking ALCO or MLW locomotives would be more appropriate than EMDs.  In the 60s and 70s, I would use an RS11 since the models are easily obtainable, but maybe an older RS-3 or RS-1 could be used if less tractive power than an RS11 is needed.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, April 18, 2019 7:16 AM

I think the metal blade will give you smooth fine cut.  Just feed the dowels slowly, and let the saw do the work, no hard pushing or forcing the bundle through.

Of course the tighter you can make the bundles, the better, maybe start with small bundles, tightly wrapped, and see what the results are.

The ends of pulp sticks aren't perfectly flat and clean.  They are cut up, after felling the tree, and it's done to get the right length, and not strive for a perfect cut, and it's done in a timely fashion, and on to the next tree, no time for dawdling.

Even if the logger is a big operation, and uses a tree feller/processor, the ends are not perfect.

I think it will work out fine.

Mike.

 

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, April 18, 2019 8:00 AM

hon30critter
What is a "bump" truck?

The MP used the bulkhead flat style of pulpwood cars.  They had two stacks of pulpwood, one on each side of the car.  When the pulpwood would be loaded on a stack it wouldn't be even, logs would be sticking out past the side of the car.  They had a truck with a big vertical grate on the back of it that would "bump" into the loads of pulpwood and push the logs into line, even with the car sides.  

If a load of pulpwood would shift enroute or while switching the car, we would have to have a bump truck come to the yard to reshift the load back on the car.  I hated pulpwood.

All of that operation is now chips, so the flats and the bump trucks are long gone.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, April 18, 2019 8:22 AM

I've tried many cominations of words to find a bump truck, or any bump machine, tractor, whatever, related to log hauling.

No luck so far.  I'd like to see one of these trucks, or machines.

I don't ever remember 4' pulp sticks, here in WI.  It seems to be a Southern thing.

Even flats I have for puplwood have the sloping center for 4' logs, but I've never seen this in prototype.

I guess it's all about the area/location.

Mike.

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, April 18, 2019 10:24 AM

mbinsewi

I think the metal blade will give you smooth fine cut.  Just feed the dowels slowly, and let the saw do the work, no hard pushing or forcing the bundle through.

Of course the tighter you can make the bundles, the better, maybe start with small bundles, tightly wrapped, and see what the results are.

The ends of pulp sticks aren't perfectly flat and clean.  They are cut up, after felling the tree, and it's done to get the right length, and not strive for a perfect cut, and it's done in a timely fashion, and on to the next tree, no time for dawdling.

Even if the logger is a big operation, and uses a tree feller/processor, the ends are not perfect.

I think it will work out fine.

Mike.

 

 

Yeah, my blade is probably not the best... I only had a few to do, so I preferred to cut them one by one with a razor saw. I find that a nice clean cut looks better on a layout, that is, as seen at a certain distance. As suggested by others, try it out. Mike seems pretty confident.

Simon

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, April 18, 2019 10:31 AM

I've used a hack saw, in a pinch, to cut trim and molding, and the cut is very fine.

Using a band saw should stop any "wobbling" you might get doing it by hand.  That was the problem I had using it for trim, keeping the saw straight, and the blade from moving around, using a hand hack saw.

Mike.

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, April 18, 2019 11:48 AM

I use a miter box with the rasor saw. No wobbling. For larger pieces of real twigs, I have used the band saw, turning the piece of wood on itself against the blade to get a cleaner cut. But again, that was all one piece at a time.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, April 18, 2019 2:54 PM

Those look great ! along with the train.

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 18, 2019 11:00 PM

dehusman
They had a truck with a big vertical grate on the back of it that would "bump" into the loads of pulpwood and push the logs into line, even with the car sides.  

Okay, there's an interesting scratch building opportunity!

Thanks for the explanation Dave. 

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 18, 2019 11:15 PM

snjroy
I find that a nice clean cut looks better on a layout, that is, as seen at a certain distance.

Hi Simon,

I'm in favour of having a clean cut too. I don't like out of proportion details like tin roofs with huge gaps and deformities in the individual sheets. That happens very very rarely.

One of the things I plan on doing (or, more accurately, having the club members do) is to use a couple of shades of yellow and brown fine tip markers to darken the centers of some of the logs just like the real thing. I'm hoping that sort of detail will hide the fact that there are only two sizes of logs and the ends are all perfectly square. I think it should be fairly easy to do once the piles are glued together.

Cutting some of the bundles slightly shorter will add some depth because not all of the ends of the logs will be lined up perfectly.

Dave

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, April 19, 2019 7:20 AM

Still trying to find the "bump" truck, I guess the imagination must take over for a scratch build. Smile, Wink & Grin

I know I've seen a picture.  Confused

Mike.

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, April 20, 2019 12:34 AM

I have been trying to find a bandsaw blade that will make smooth cuts in 1/8 hardwood dowels. Unfortunately the blade descriptions don't seem to mention whether the blade gives a smooth cut or a rough cut. I thought I could go by the number of teeth per inch (TPI) but I read a couple of reviews for 14 TPI blades that said they gave a rough cut. I would have thought that the opposite would be true but apparently not. Can someone explain how to identify the smoothness of a blade? Just as a reminder, I want to cut masking tape wrapped bundles of 1/8" and 5/32" hardwood dowels into HO scale pulpwood loads and piles.

Thanks,

Dave

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