Installing a switch machine under an existing layout

[York1]

I started my first layout (n scale) last year after I retired. 

I have several turnouts on the far side of the layout.  That was not an issue until some landscaping now stops me from reaching across.

I would like to install some switch machines under those turnouts.

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

 

I'm sure there are forum entries on this somewhere, but my searches return so much info (most of it unrelated)  I get overwhelmed.

Any help with information, or information on the forum page to go to, would be appreciated.

[BigDaddy]

What switch machine do you anticipate using?  I'm and  HO guy and don't know the N scale options.

I drilled large holes under my HO turnout throwbars, in case I wanted to use switch machines later.  Of course the one I didn't do, because a joist was precisely in the way, is the one I would really like to put a machine on now.

People have used a piece of piano wire attached the the end of the throwbar and run it through a tube (brass, styrene, or RC control sheath) to either a ground throw or a switch machine that is placed some distance to the side of the turnout.  The tube runs only deep enough to be covered by scenicking material.

I'm sure someone will post a pic.

[York1]

BigDaddy

What switch machine do you anticipate using?

I was going to use Tortoise, but several weeks ago I saw some of Walthers system and it looked easier.  It seem both machines are installed similarly.  I'm not sure yet --

John

[railandsail]

push-pull rod systems

I picked up some Du-Bro pushrods a couple of days ago from a model plane shop.

https://www.dubro.com/products/micro-push-rod-system

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXDCT7

You might have a look thru this subject thread,...

Manual Turnout Control by Cable
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/273482.aspx

Like BigDaddy said above, I plan to control a number of my 'unreachable' turnouts with a very small diameter cable within a cable simply snaked along the surface of the deck and covered with grass/senery.

 

 

[wvg_ca]

if the hole has to be in a particular spot, then drilling down first with a smaller pilot bit is recommened ..  then drill up with final size bit ..

[RR_Mel]

If it was me doing that I would pull the turnouts.  I’m not very graceful and drilling a hole upwards to ½” in diameter from below would mean disaster for me.  The turnout mechanisms are very delicate and the slightest problem will deem them unreliable.

 

The surface control rod would be a good alternative if removing the turnout would be a problem.  A short surface linkage to a Tortoise would work very good too.

 

I haven’t ever used a control rod mechanism but I’m sure they would work as good or even better than an under table machine.

 

Good luck  

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[BigDaddy]

RR_Mel

I’m not very graceful and drilling a hole upwards to ½” in diameter from below would mean disaster for me.

I didn't even consider that as remotely feasible.  If the layout were small enough to fit, upside down, under a drill press or a milling machine, it could work, but otherwise you are going to booger up the throw bar

[York1]

Thanks for the input.  I did find a forum page that someone told how they drilled a hole up, but at my age and my lack of experience, I think I would probably ruin everything.

I may try to figure out a surface solution like some of you suggest.  I guess my last resort will be what Mel suggested and pull out the turnouts and go from there.

Thanks, everyone.

[MisterBeasley]

Circuitron makes a linkage to make the Tortoise more flexible, which could be used above ground or below.  I used one to power a set of grade crossing gates.

[Medina1128]

I remember reading a thread some time ago and it addressed the very question you're asking. They first drilled a small pilot hole from the top, then slid an NMRA gauge under the turnout (personally, I'd use a metal putty knife), then drill the final-sized hole from underneath.

[faraway]

Medina1128

They first drilled a small pilot hole from the top, then slid an NMRA gauge under the turnout (personally, I'd use a metal putty knife), then drill the final-sized hole from underneath.

I did it similar with successs. I did not drill the final hole but mill it from the bottom with the dremel. The mill in the dremel is easier to control than a drill.

 

[gregc]

York1

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

using the approach shown below, you need to drill a hole close to the throwbar outside the track (not between the rails).    It's location doesn't need to be precise.  It size should allow a brass tube to fit snuggly but able to rotate.

bend a piece of wire (upside down J) that hooks into a hole on the top of the throwbar and solders into a brass tube that slides into the drilled hole (not as shown).   drop it into the hole and hook it onto the throwbar.

an arm (1/4" sqaure stock) can be made with a vertical hole that slides onto the brass tube from the bottom and a threaded hole on the side that  allows a screw to lock it onto the brass tube at any desired angle at one end and several holes for a wire at the other end.

attach the tortoise to the bottom of the layout, preferrably closer to the front of the layout.  Attach  a wire with a u-bend to the tortoise and the arm.   the u-bend allows some adjustment.

 

[York1]

It's been a long time, and I'm not sure if anyone is even interested anymore.

I tried drilling up, with a putty knife under the turnout.  It didn't work.  When I thought I was getting close, I actually was already pushing the putty knife up enough to ruin the turnout.

I replaced it.  On the next one, I took the other suggestions and put the switch motor position off to the side of the turnout, and connected it to the turnout with a small piece of metal and plastic.  Works like a charm.

I have more turnouts to do, and I will not again try to drill up.  If I were younger, could control things better, and could see better, things might be different.

[rrinker]

The trick to drilling up is to know the thickness of the structure, and you put a piece of tape around the drill bit such that slightly less than the needed length is exposed.

Offset linkage is just fine, too.

                                        --Randy

[BigDaddy]

York1

It didn't work.

Mel and I are not surprised. 

[kasskaboose]

Count me in the camp for ruining a turnout for being too aggressive with drilling underneath one.  Atlas turnouts are increasingly difficult to find, so knowing what your're doing matters even more.  Who wants to wait 2-4 weeks for a turnout?

It was annoying to work underneath the layout with a tortoise.  Going through 2" of foam and feedeing the throw bar through the turnout hole was challenging. 

Any thought to running a wire from the top of the turnout and attaching it to the switch machine underneath the layout?  You could bend the wire 90 degrees to prevent it from sliding through the turnout.  Another idea is using the wire as a "guide" of where to drill to create a larger hole for the Tortoise.

[woodone]

Got caught with the same problem- I drilled a small hole from the top down through the hole in the turnout. I then measured the thickness of the roadbed under the turnout. I used a spur wood drill bit (the bit has a small point that will follow the pilot hole) I used a wood shim under the turnout to raze it. Then I used a collar on the drill bit for correct depth. Then drilled from underneth. Go slow when the collar get close to the wood under the turnout. The wood shim will let the bit go through the road bed an not touch the turnout because of the collar.

look up a spur wood bit and you will see how clean a hole it will make.

 

[York1]

kasskaboose

Any thought to running a wire from the top of the turnout and attaching it to the switch machine underneath the layout?  You could bend the wire 90 degrees to prevent it from sliding through the turnout.  Another idea is using the wire as a "guide" of where to drill to create a larger hole for the Tortoise.

I ended up using Walthers switch motors, about the same price as Tortoise.  I really like the plug wiring and lights for fascia control without figuring anything out and without trying to solder connections under the table.

I actually ended up drilling through the table about ½ inch from the turnout bar.  I installed the machine under the table, and connected the turnout bar to the switch machine's wire with a small piece of plastic I rigged up.  Filled in the hole except for the tiny opening for the machine wire sticking througn, painted it, and it works great and is nearly invisible.

[WILLIAM SHEPARD]

gregc

 

 

York1

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

 

 

using the approach shown below, you need to drill a hole close to the throwbar outside the track (not between the rails).    It's location doesn't need to be precise.  It size should allow a brass tube to fit snuggly but able to rotate.

bend a piece of wire (upside down J) that hooks into a hole on the top of the throwbar and solders into a brass tube that slides into the drilled hole (not as shown).   drop it into the hole and hook it onto the throwbar.

an arm (1/4" sqaure stock) can be made with a vertical hole that slides onto the brass tube from the bottom and a threaded hole on the side that  allows a screw to lock it onto the brass tube at any desired angle at one end and several holes for a wire at the other end.

attach the tortoise to the bottom of the layout, preferrably closer to the front of the layout.  Attach  a wire with a u-bend to the tortoise and the arm.   the u-bend allows some adjustment.

 

 

gregc

 

 

York1

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

 

 

using the approach shown below, you need to drill a hole close to the throwbar outside the track (not between the rails).    It's location doesn't need to be precise.  It size should allow a brass tube to fit snuggly but able to rotate.

bend a piece of wire (upside down J) that hooks into a hole on the top of the throwbar and solders into a brass tube that slides into the drilled hole (not as shown).   drop it into the hole and hook it onto the throwbar.

an arm (1/4" sqaure stock) can be made with a vertical hole that slides onto the brass tube from the bottom and a threaded hole on the side that  allows a screw to lock it onto the brass tube at any desired angle at one end and several holes for a wire at the other end.

attach the tortoise to the bottom of the layout, preferrably closer to the front of the layout.  Attach  a wire with a u-bend to the tortoise and the arm.   the u-bend allows some adjustment.

 

 

gregc

 

 

York1

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

 

 

using the approach shown below, you need to drill a hole close to the throwbar outside the track (not between the rails).    It's location doesn't need to be precise.  It size should allow a brass tube to fit snuggly but able to rotate.

bend a piece of wire (upside down J) that hooks into a hole on the top of the throwbar and solders into a brass tube that slides into the drilled hole (not as shown).   drop it into the hole and hook it onto the throwbar.

an arm (1/4" sqaure stock) can be made with a vertical hole that slides onto the brass tube from the bottom and a threaded hole on the side that  allows a screw to lock it onto the brass tube at any desired angle at one end and several holes for a wire at the other end.

attach the tortoise to the bottom of the layout, preferrably closer to the front of the layout.  Attach  a wire with a u-bend to the tortoise and the arm.   the u-bend allows some adjustment.

 

 

Per the illustration I used a similar way to control all my turnouts.  With a deviation.  The brass tube you show in the illustration, I used a 1/2" diameter wood dowell which was mounted to an aluminum plate about 2x3" on the bottom.  The wood dowel had a slot cut in the side deep enough for the control wire.  Which would allow me to bend the control wire at the work bench instead of under the layout, then slide it all up into a 1/2" hole to connect to the turnout.  Use a similar pull rod but use a 3/16" steel rod which I tapped 10-32 threads on the end for a 1" wood ball.  recessed a nut into the ball on exposed end with nut on the fascia side to hold the knob in place.  

By using 3/16" rod can use bell cranks to change the direction of the pulls so that when the knob on the fascia is pushed in all the turnouts are set for straight through running, pulled indicates that turnout is set for diverging direction.  

Later after completing most of the trackwork and turnouts.  I then connected Tortorise motors to the control rods, some I had to remove the over center spring as the motor didn't have power enough to over come the spring.  

Under the layout I only have about 3" clearance so all my switch motors are mounted on their side by cutting about 3" from a piece of 2" aluminum angle to mouth the motor too then make it more convient to mount the motor with the alumium angle base.  

There are several tool places and woodworker stores that sell a stop for drill bits and forsner bits.  When drilling up into benchwork to avoid drilling into the turnout.

[BroadwayLion]

York1

I started my first layout (n scale) last year after I retired. 

I have several turnouts on the far side of the layout.  That was not an issue until some landscaping now stops me from reaching across.

I would like to install some switch machines under those turnouts.

How hard is it to drill holes for the machines without damaging the turnout, and how do I go about it?

 

I'm sure there are forum entries on this somewhere, but my searches return so much info (most of it unrelated)  I get overwhelmed.

Any help with information, or information on the forum page to go to, would be appreciated.

 

 

Scenery stops you from reaching the turn out. Well that stops the discussion right there. Nothing else matters. First you must REMOVE the scenery so that you can access the turnout.  {Be not afraid, for I have pulled many things up and have replaced them. Mre that 50% of the Route of the Broadway LION has been pulled up and replaced}

 

Having access to the turn out, I cut it out with a dremmel tool at the rail joiners. Remove the rail joiners from all rails. If the have been soldered, you will have to use a soldering Iron to remobe them.

MARK where you want the hole to be. A 1/4 inch hole is OK, but the LION uses a half inch hole, even in N scale noboyd is going to see it once things are put back together agqian. Undercut the sies on the switch, slide new rail joiners all the way onto the stock rails, and then place the switch and scootch the joiners back into place.

DISCARD the instructions from the Tortoise!. Use some tape to fix the switchpoints in mid throw. GENTLY move the actuator to mid-stroke.

Place a GLOB of Silicone caulk to the face of the Tortoise, keeping it away from the moving parts.

From the bottom of the table threzd the actuator through the hole in the throw bar, and press the Tortoise up to the table, adjust its position so that there is no tension on the actuator rod. Let it dry in place. You may need to be prepaired to hold it in place with a stick or something, but for most surfaces and aplications I find this to be unnecessary.

 

For more ideas visit the LION's Website.

ROQAR

[RR_Mel]

I didn’t mention in my earlier post what I’ve been doing to my atlas turnouts or atlas under the layout switch machines as they fail.  It still requires pulling the turnout but after 20 or so years of service I don’t think that it hurts to pull the turnouts and give them a good overhaul just for good measure.

 

The Atlas ATL65 switch machine brand new didn’t do much for me out of the box but I went with them anyway back in 1988.

What I have found that works very good is to go with a Peco PL-10 switch machine.  Electronically they are identical.  It takes a bit of doing to get them to work mechanically but well worth the effort.  On a scale of 1 to 10 they end up as a 15 on my layout.

 

The Atlas turnout needs a Peco spring added to the throw bar and with the PL-10 mounted to the bottom of the turnout you have to make a 2¼” hole under the turnout for the PL-10 to drop in.

 

I have converted 4 of my old Atlas Custom Line turnouts and one new out of the box as a replacement for a 25 year old turnout.  The final modified turnout works much better than the ATL65 ever did and I really like the snap action of the points with the added Peco spring.

 

This is a link to a post on my blog of the Mel Modification:

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2015/01/january-10-2015-turnout-modification.html

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[Mister Mikado]

How about Walthers or some company create a surface-mounted switch machine disguised as a bush or a tool chest, etc. with a very thin throw rod coming out, powered by 2 wires passing under the layout.  No need for cables and precise drilling.  Does this product already exist?  

-Rob

[BroadwayLion]

Mister Mikado

How about Walthers or some company create a surface-mounted switch machine disguised as a bush or a tool chest, etc. with a very thin throw rod coming out, powered by 2 wires passing under the layout.  No need for cables and precise drilling.  Does this product already exist?  

-Rob

 

 

A Tortoise is a little big for that, yet I do have some that are surface mounted. S

Since a double crossover they control, they are placed at street level and som buildings disguise the machines.

 

For this kind of a speciality you are on your own, nobody is going to build it for you.

 

I also mount machines on thedge of the layout and run a rod through a ditch to the throwbar.

 

LOTS ewe can do. LION uses Tortoise exclusively. Works best with my interlocking machine.

ROAR