Has anyone used Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets?

[hon30critter]

Hi folks,

Has anyone used Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets? What did you think? Are they just a more expensive way to do the same thing as plaster cloth?

I have been following the Canadian Canyons Project Railroad and I was impressed by both the results of using the Shaper Sheets over vertical foam ribs and the apparent ease and speed of installation. Our club needs to build a large hilly area approximately 4' x 12' x 30" high resembling the rock and forest of central and northern Ontario. The construction has to be light in weight because it will have to be built off of the layout and lifted into place in the center of the peninsula. The reach in distances are simply too great to build it in place. We are thinking of doing it in several sections so that the size of each piece is manageable. We will have to figure out how to diguise the seams but I don't think that will be too hard to do. There will not be any track within the area of the hills.

What do you think?

Dave

[SeeYou190]

I have used them.

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If you want a no-mess, no-fumes, and no-fuss way of making forms, they do work pretty good.

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For apartment dwellers and neat freaks, they might be a good option.

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For the rest of us, they are not any better than cardboard formers and plaster cloth.

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-Kevin

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[BigDaddy]

This may be a case of too little knowledge is dangerous, but what about a 12x30 shell of fiberglass, covered in sculptamold.   I imagine, but don't know for sure, you could use it similar to plaster rolls over a cardboard lacing.

You would have light weight, adequate rigidity, and an outside surface, sculptamold, that would be easy to add casting, carve, sand or scenick.

[UNCLEBUTCH]

  ''Foam" Lite weigh,ez to stack as high as you want,can be carved snd painted, no need to use plaster,but can be covered if wanted. Fast, no waiting for dry time. to plant trees just poke a hole

 I'm guessing here, but I think its cheaper then building forms and covering with sloppy plaster soaked towels.

 It's possible to build a 8ft section and lift in place

[hon30critter]

Thanks everyone,

 

Kevin,

Nice to know that it works. The lack of mess and the relative speed of installation are a couple of the reasons for why we are considering the Shaper Sheet. I think it looks good too.

 

Henry,

Fiberglass sounds like an attractive alternative when you think of the finished product, but having worked with it a fair bit, I think that there would be some real drawbacks.

One could be cost. I haven't priced cloth or resin recently so I'm not sure but it wasn't cheap when I used it years ago and I can't imagine that has changed much since.

The biggest drawback would be the mess. The resin loves to drip everywhere! Have you ever had liquid fiberglass resin on your fingers? Have you ever tried to get liquid or hardened resin off of somewhere where you don't want it? It's nasty stuff.

Also, we are not doing a boat hull which is nice and smooth and where laying the cloth down is easy. We are doing scenery where we want lots of humps and hollows. Getting the wet fiberglass to conform to the irregular terrain and then getting it to stay there while it sets would be a nightmare. I think you would have to work on fairly small areas at a time and keep poking at it until the resin hardens. Otherwise the cloth will naturally want to straighten itself out.

Then there is the issue of smell.

Then there is the issue of having to use some pretty harsh chemicals to clean the fiberglass afterwards. Fiberglass resin forms a sort of wax on the surface as it cures. If the wax is not cleaned off, things, including a second layer of glass, will not stick solidly to the fiberglass. For modeling purposes the difference might not matter much but the issue is still there. IIRC, acetone is what is used to remove the wax.

Maybe my info is out of date because it has been a few years since I used it, but I think the challenges far outweigh any advantages that fiberglass might have, and since I can't think of any advantages I don't think we will go there.

Please don't take offense to my answer Henry. I wasn't trying to shoot you down, but I felt it necessary to answer your question in detail just in case someone else who hasn't worked with it thought fiberglass might be a good way to go.

 

Uncle Butch,

Given the area and the height of the hills that we want to construct, solid foam could be pretty expensive. Even if we were to make the core of the hills hollow, it would still take a lot of foam. My thought was that using 1" foam to form ribs in the manner that MR did on their Canadian Canyons layout would take a lot less foam because the hills are not solid.

The question is, would the 'open ribs covered with Shaper Sheet' method be any more expensive than doing 'solid' foam? In other words, if I save 'X' dollars by using less foam, would the cost of the Shaper Sheet be more or less than the dollars saved on the foam? I'm guessing that the costs will be pretty close. If so, the advantage goes to the Shaper Sheets because of the speed of installation and the minimal mess, and the (IMHO) great results.

Both methods will require some sort of fill material, rock castings etc. so let's assume that those costs will be relatively equal.

Here is a screen shot from the Canadian Canyons project railroad Video Plus series of the foam rib/Shaper Sheet being installed:

I hope using that picture is okay with MR since you have to be a subscriber to MR Video Plus to see the actual videos.

Just so the traditionalists know, we have not ruled out using screening and plaster cloth. We are just exploring our options.

Cheers!!

Dave

[snjroy]

Hi there. We use shaper sheets at the club. They are easy to use and not messy at all. They are more expensive than the brown paper soaked in plaster method. I agree with Dave about fiberglass. If you were to do this every month,  it would be different. But plaster is fine in my opinion for your purposes.

Simon

[hon30critter]

Thanks Simon,

Dave

[hon30critter]

One of the things that we have to keep in mind is that the scenery where we would be using the shaper sheet is in the middle of the peninsula so it has to be easy to lift in and out. The reach in distances are too great to build it in place. That makes the foam rib/Shaper Sheet option much more attractive than anything with plaster.

I did a rough cost comparison between the foam rib/Shaper Sheet option and using 'solid' foam based on 56 cu. ft. of scenery required to build the hills. The Shaper Sheet option worked out to only about $75.00 more, and it could even be less than that because I was very generous with the numbers of Shaper Sheets and foam ribs.

In both cases there will be additional costs for Sculpamold etc. so I didn't include those in the estimates. However, I believe that the quantity of Scupltamold required to hide the layers properly with the solid foam option could be much greater than with the Shaper Sheets. I guess that depends on how well you carve the solid foam to begin with.

Any other comments?

Dave

[doctorwayne]

Dave, I'm curious as to why the scenery section needs to be a lift-out.  It seems to me that the 4' dimension is easily spanned if there's a person working from the outside of the peninsula, and another working from within.   Is the benchwork not open enough for someone to crawl under and then pop-up within?

The peninsula on my layout is about 6'x12', but it will be easy enough for me to crawl under the benchwork, then either stand-up within the peninsula or climb up, from within, onto the benchwork. 

My scenery is mostly plaster on aluminum window screen, but I will be using extruded foam, cut into arcs, to create a Niagara Escarpment-like rock face in the inside of the curved grade.  The scenic landforms atop that will be plaster on screen, partially done within the peninsula, and the rest of it likely do-able from the outside of the peninsula, since it narrows towards its base.

Wayne

[BigDaddy]

Dave No offense taken. The only fiberglass work i’ve done is to fill in minor scratches on my runabout

[RR_Mel]

Dave I really lucked out when I was building my mountains.  I had all the plywood in place with all of the roadbed/track laid and I let it set that way for a couple of years just running my trains with no scenery.

 

This would be my third layout and most likely my last so making a decision on how to proceed took a lot of time.  Over my previous 31 years of model railroading I had tried everything to create scenery that anyone could imagine.

 

The magic model railroader in the sky dropped the material on me by accident.  I was the Communications Manager for the City of Bakersfield at the time and the Police Department ordered 150 Mobile Data Terminals.  Each one came with 4 foam blocks as part of the packing material.  The blocks were 12” x 18” x 2” thick, well they were headed to the county dump so each day I took a load home with me.  By the end of the project I had a garage full of foam blocks.

 

The blocks are extremely light and as strong as any building material anyone could find.  I stacked the blocks on my layout to see what they looked like then glued them where they looked the best.  After the glue dried a few day I started carving with a hot wire cutter made from a large soldering gun and I just carved away.  If I screwed up I still had a couple of hundred left.

 

The moral to this story is that the foam blocks are greatest material for making mountainous or hilly scenery base ever.  It is super strong as well as super light.  I made several lift out sections that are very strong with very little weight.  Even with Paper Mache and Plaster of Paris early on, Hydrocal and Sculptamold later a 2’ x 4’ section weighs less than ten pounds.

 

If I was to start over today and had to foot the cash for the foam blocks I would go that route, it is simply the easiest and strongest model layout material out there!

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[hon30critter]

doctorwayne

I'm curious as to why the scenery section needs to be a lift-out.  It seems to me that the 4' dimension is easily spanned if there's a person working from the outside of the peninsula, and another working from within.   Is the benchwork not open enough for someone to crawl under and then pop-up within?

Hi Wayne,

The four foot section is inside the center of the peninsula. There is between 2' and 4' of layout between the fascia and where the hills will start. We can get to the first foot or so of the scenery in question from the aisle on the south side, but the hills will be too tall to reach over from inside the peninsula unless you were standing on a stool. That would be awkward. Being able to take the scenery out to work on it will be so much easier than doing a balancing act or having to reach to the limit of one's abilities.

We spent quite some time discussing the issue tonight, and being able to lift sections of the scenery out to work on them seems to be the best option.

Thanks for your input,

Dave

[hon30critter]

RR_Mel

Each one came with 4 foam blocks as part of the packing material.  The blocks were 12” x 18” x 2” thick,

I priced using solid foam but the cost is about the same as the foam ribs and Shaper Sheet, and the Shaper Sheet method would seem to be so much easier and faster. I have ordered a roll of the Shaper Sheet and we will experiment with it.

Dave

[dknelson]

hon30critter

Maybe my info is out of date because it has been a few years since I used it, but I think the challenges far outweigh any advantages that fiberglass might have, and since I can't think of any advantages I don't think we will go there.

Re fiberglass, I don't seem to get along well with that product: if I touch a crossing gate or boat hull made with fiberglass, even if the surface is smooth to the touch, minute bits seem to dig into my skin and make my hands itch.

Another reason why I'd shy away from fiberglass as a scenic material is that at some point when it comes time to demolish the layout, someone is likely to be smashing it all with a hammer or cutting it with a sawzall.  Small particles of fiberglass in the air would be a huge problem for me and I suspect for others.

Dave Nelson

[hon30critter]

We had a Layout Committee meeting on Monday night and I introduced the idea of using the foam rib/Shaper Sheet method. It was well received by the committee so we agreed to go ahead with the experiment. I showed several other members the concept on Tuesday night at our regular meeting and they all thought it was worth a try too.

One member expressed concern that the ribs and the backdrop might be a bit flimsy but I am of the opinion that it will be quite strong. The construction is very similar to building a wooden boat or canoe, and we can put cross bracing between the ribs to further strengthen the structure. We agreed to use 2" foam as a base which will make it even stronger.

Question: PL 300 is recommended for gluing foam together, but why can't we use regular PL Construction Adhesive? One member has done it and he said it worked fine. It did not attack the foam (which was my concern) and it seemed to stick quite well. It would save us a few $.

Dave