Hello all! I am in need of some advice from modelers who have already taken on this task... I am preparing to pour water for a harbor and beach scene. I have a few questions before moving forward as I want to get this right the first time.
A few things to know....
1. This water will come to the edge of my layout and at the point where the styrene dam (which will be removed once water sets) and layout edge meet, it will approximately be 1.5" deep.
2. The water will be poured around bridge abutments, around trestle supports, and fade up to a beach where the water will gradually become more shallow.
3. Everything has been properly sealed, painted, leveled, and detailed to prevent leaks.
So now, what kind of water do I use? Should I use Envirotex, Woodland Scenics realistic water, Woodland Scenics Deep Pour water? How deep of a pour should I do at a time? Will there be any shrinking of the hardened water over time? Also, I will have boats, people, animals on/in the water...
Any advice, experiences, how to's and pictures would be greatly appreciated. As always, I look forward to hearing and learning from you all. Cheers!
irishRR Hello all! I am in need of some advice from modelers who have already taken on this task... I am preparing to pour water for a harbor and beach scene. I have a few questions before moving forward as I want to get this right the first time. A few things to know.... 1. This water will come to the edge of my layout and at the point where the styrene dam (which will be removed once water sets) and layout edge meet, it will approximately be 1.5" deep.
That will be rather costly. Why not paint up a bottom just below the height you really need for the water surface, and then pour over that to a depth of about two pours, say a whole quarter-inch? If you want to show the depth of the water, as it should be, at the edge of the layout, back the edge of the filler plug toward the back of the layout about half an inch, paint it dark green or black, maybe dark turquoise, and let your water substance run into that and create an illusion of depth.
irishRR 2. The water will be poured around bridge abutments, around trestle supports, and fade up to a beach where the water will gradually become more shallow. 3. Everything has been properly sealed, painted, leveled, and detailed to prevent leaks. So now, what kind of water do I use? Should I use Envirotex, Woodland Scenics realistic water, Woodland Scenics Deep Pour water? How deep of a pour should I do at a time? Will there be any shrinking of the hardened water over time? Also, I will have boats, people, animals on/in the water...
I have used a two-part finish-quality epoxy from Swing Paints on previous layouts, but switched to Envirotex this time because it's all I could get; the hardware store no longer carries the Swing Paints Nu-Lustre 55, or whatever it was. I found Envirotex to be an excellent substitute. Just follow the directions scrupulously.
I have always covered the two pours, once they set and cure, with a thin layer of Gel Gloss Medium (arts and crafts stores), and then stippled it liberally with the side of the disposable foam applicator. Creates a distrurbed and natural surface once it dries, which could be as much as a week for some higher peaks. Note that liquid Mod Podge Gloss Medium can also be poured and allowed to dry, and then stipple it with a gel gloss top coat. It's somewhat cheaper than epoxies.
Note that I always tint my envirotex. Contrary to what you may have read or been told, you CAN mix tiny quantities of acrylic craft paints into the epoxy, always at the outset of stirring. You want it thoroughly involved and homogenous in the pour as it spreads, no streaks! In my case, I also added a tiny pinch of plaster of Paris powder so that the pour would be somewhat opaque like turbid water. This is evident in the first photo below.
The Envirotex and other two-part finish epoxies will have tiny bubbles in the pour, tons of them. Most will pop of their own accord. Some may linger. Ten minutes after it all settles and runs to the extent it can, go back and gently blow through a plastic soda straw over the surface, the lower tip of the straw an inch away from the surface. Any bubbles that are left will pop. Takes literally seconds.
irishRR Any advice, experiences, how to's and pictures would be greatly appreciated. As always, I look forward to hearing and learning from you all. Cheers!
The above was on my second layout, now seven years gone. The next is an outdoors shot on a 4' X12" diorama.
I can't offer much in the way of comments on "water" products, as I use patching plaster, with paint and a clear finish to represent water.
However, I'm wondering if that 1.5" depth is going to cause problems with your "water". The general idea with such products is usually to suggest depth by painting the "bottom" using suitable colours, while the water products are mostly to represent the wet surface, with only a suggestion of depth - the paint does the bulk of that.
Wayne
Use Magic Water
https://www.unrealdetails.com/
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I have used Woodland Scenics Realistic Water on several occasions in the past.
When I followed the instructions and poured a shallow amount, things worked out well. But, later on, when I poured slightly deeper than recommended, it took several weeks to cure. I place a tug boat in the "hardened" water which sank into the water over a period of a few years.
So, your 1 1/2" pour may take months to harden. Meanwhile, the pour will remain cloudy and will not clear for those many months.
Rich
Alton Junction
As my British wife would say, "That's Irish!".
Maybe the OP thinks he needs to pour a deep layer of water to get the sense of depth, but as others have pointed out, you get depth by painting the base first with appropriate shades and then only need a thin layer of whatever water product you use. I followed Rob Spanglers methods to get my river - bottom and water surface (gloss Mod Podge).
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Good morning lots of great advice so far... thank you. After reading my original post, I need to make a correction. The depth would be approximately .5" not 1.5". I must have hit an incorrect key stroke. Also, this is designed to be more of a lake, not quite a river. Please continue with your advice. I am learning so much. Thank you!
I forget wich product I used, but anyway it was a clear casting product, and I spent a lot time painting the bottom of the area to get the look I wanted, so that just a very thin coat, maybe an 1/8" or less, would cover it, and then added surface effects.
I think you'll have to search around and find a product that you can pour that thick, and end up with good results.
A 1/2" is still very thick, for a typical hobby casting resin. And if you did do it, and it looked fine in the beginning, as the the product cures, over time, maybe months, or a even a year or two, the edges will curl up, including curled away from anything you poured around, like bridge piers, pilings, etc.
I think painting the bottom for the looks you want is the key. Deep water would be dark blues and greens, nothing else showing like rocks, etc. As it shallows around the edges, more will become visible.
Good luck!
Mike.
My You Tube
irishRR Good morning lots of great advice so far... thank you. After reading my original post, I need to make a correction. The depth would be approximately .5" not 1.5". I must have hit an incorrect key stroke. Also, this is designed to be more of a lake, not quite a river. Please continue with your advice. I am learning so much. Thank you!
I agree with Mike, even a half-inch is very thick. I would guess closer to 1/8th of an inch is closer to what you would really need.
I applied my gloss Mod Pod probably close to 3/16ths and possibly 1/4-inch in the thickest places and IMO, it was too thick.
Next time around I would apply it thinner and shoot for 1/8th inch. Of course check the product you are using but I doubt any of them would recommend a even 1/4 inch.
bearman Use Magic Water https://www.unrealdetails.com/
Use Magic Water https://www.unrealdetails.com/
That site https://www.unrealdetails.com/ has a testimonial that Envirotex turns a root bear color over time. I've not seen that problem mentioned before.
1/2" is better than 1.5" but still seems a little thick to me. My resin experience is in the distant past.
David Popp used WS Deep pour water for the Canadian Canyons. His pour didn't look 1/2" thick though. MRVP might be worth your while to watch some of the water videos. The resin has a surface tension so it has to be teased to the edge of where you want it to go (he used a wooden tongue depressor) but once there it also tends to creep.
He also did water in the Virginian series, which I watched last night. In attempting to creates waves with Modge podge, he created an unwanted spit effect because of the bubbles produced.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I used Mod-Podge, the glossy one. I wouldn't make a single pour more than about 1/8" thick. As it cures, you can add waves by stippling the surface of the final pour. It's water soluble until it dries. I'd follow Wayne's advice about using paint to give the illusion of depth. Even if you're not dead set on making it deeper, you'll have to create a damn at the edge of the layout, sealed below the bottom of the "water" level (I used silicone caulk).
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
For a contrarian view, here's a rather low cost method by our friend at Marklin of Sweden (YouTube video). It's pretty easy and cheap, using mostly toilet paper, glue, and paint - yet the results look fairly good to me.
That's the brand I have used for three scenes. I don't think I ever went .5 inches deep, but one use was pretty close to that, maybe exactly that, with no cracking or shifting. I thoroughly prepare the bottom with scenic material and do not tint the water. Magic Water has no odor that I can detect. Just give it time to set and harden. By the way it WILL find any tiny gap or hole!
One thing is that there is a slight tendency for the liquid resin to creep up when it is poured, that is, modeled vegetation on the edge of the water sometimes gets the liquid to wick upwards into it. And abutments tend to show a bit of an upward wicking as well. I'm less troubled by it than some are.
My wife used a similar product for artificial flowers in a vase - a two part product that dried very clear to a depth of a couple of inches in that vase. So I suspect there should be no problems (heh - that vase of artificial flowers looked great for years until a friend who was watering our plants and looking after our cat while we vacationed decided she need to add real water to the vase! That was not a good idea ....).
Dave Nelson
chutton01For a contrarian view, here's a rather low cost method by our friend at Marklin of Sweden....
Thanks for that link! Good-looking results, and, as usual, an interesting presentation.
On a large job as you discribe, I feel that flat masonite painted and coated with urathane works best. Poured stuff tends to creap up the sides of things like piers and have wallows around them, very unrealistic. Yes I have pored stuff but only in cases where I acually need the depth because of sunken trees etc,. Also if you make a mistake with the pored stuff it can be hard to imposible to fix, not so with the other.
I like his videos. He's to the point and precise, and when he begins the process, he moves right though it. No hemin and hawin, no slow moving person trying to get materials together and explaining where they bought each individual item, and price comparing between brands, no wasted effert, just method.
All those that try and make "how-to" videos should learn from him. Most of them I can't stand! and never get very far, or keep skipping through the video, trying to get to the point.
His method with this water and wave modeling, I think looks excellent.
I ended with the same trouble years ago when I need to add water for my Port Allen
Port Allen is a big surface, and the layout itself, is rounded by the banks of the Maclau River, which is the edge of the layout.
I quickly understand that any pouring was not possible for such surface.
I ended by using this method.
First I paint the surface a deep marin blue, nearly black using enamels paint.
Second I brush translucide acrilyc heavy gel from Golden artist colors, and work it to make waves; this materials keep forms easily, stay in forms, dry quickly and completely translucide.
When dry, I have a surface with small waves everywhere.
But the surface is not shiny.
I brush the whole surface with epoxy resin, the stuff used to build fiberglass things.
Three or four coats are applied, this give depht but also made the "water" more ondulating over the waves; this resin dry quickly but I brush a coat only each 24 hours.
The last coat receive a drop of brow acrilyc color in the mixture, this add depht and kill a bit the blue effect, which ended with a more realistic look.
The result is an ondulating (in move ) water, brillant and translucide with depht even if the real thickness is only a few millimeters.
The surface is really shinning with good looking waves.
The fact the resin is brushed, allow to cover big surface even in one or two times because the resin in your jar dry quickly.
This resin is really inexpensive,
Following a few pictures of my "water"
I like Envirotex, too. I pour several things layers over a few days. Each layer gets lightly tinted with a drop or two of craft paint, darker colors and then lighter.
If you go to Michael's or A.C. Moore, download and print the 40% off coupon. Envirotex isn't cheap, but lasts forever if you keep the bottles clean and tightly sealed.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
My layout has two large areas of open water, and the time has come to take a deep breath and do both.
My plan is to use the technique used by DoctorWayne and RioGrande5761: to paint the river bottom in varying shades to depict the lighter shallow areas along the banks and the darker deeper areas of the main channel. I'll be using several shades of tan-to-green-to-dark-brown acrylic covered by a coupla thick coats of one-coat clear gloss water based polyurethane. I guess the total thickness of the gloss poly might be in the 1/16" range. Nothing like a thick pour. And then topped off with eddys and small waves/whitecaps created with acrylic water effects. Not choppy or stormy, just gently flowing.
My question regards the plywood benchwork top. The deck is B/C plywood that appears to be more in the C range than the B; quite a few checks, cracks, knots, and rills. Should I spend a lot of time and effort to spackle and patch and sand sand sand to remove those? Or will they blend in with the applied surface water effects? Both river areas are in modeled locations where moving water is appropriate.
Thanks.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I'm not speaking for Wayne, or Rio, but I found you need to hide all of the plywood, or it will show through.
mbinsewi I'm not speaking for Wayne, or Rio, but I found you need to hide all of the plywood, or it will show through. Mike.
Hey Mike-
I'm glad for you to chime in and speak for mbinsewi. Your thoughts and ideas are certainly worthwhile.
While my riverbeds are plywood, they all have a coating of Durabond 90 patching plaster, which is worked to create the effect of moving water. I'd guess it to be no more than 1/8" thick.That "water" is then painted with ordinary latex house paint, and any rough water gets a little bit of white paint, then the whole shebang gets three coats of water-based, high gloss, urethane.
Here's the basic riverbed of Chippawa Creek, before the flood...
...and likewise for the Maitland River...
Since I use Durabond over aluminum window screen for the basic landforms on the entire layout, and the same paint to colour it prior to adding scenery, there wasn't much added cost to make the water, other than the urethane.
doctorwayne While my riverbeds are plywood, they all have a coating of Durabond 90 patching plaster, which is worked to create the effect of moving water. I'd guess it to be no more than 1/8" thick.That "water" is then painted with ordinary latex house paint, and any rough water gets a little bit of white paint, then the whole shebang gets three coats of water-based, high gloss, urethane. Here's the basic riverbed of Chippawa Creek, before the flood...
Hey Doc,
Thanks. Photos No 2 and No 3 show the look I'm going for. Do you have any views from the timeframe between No 1 and No 2? The reason I'm asking is to find out if the eye can catch the optical illusion of depth from the shaded painted deck before applying the heavy coat of gloss polyurethane.
Plus, I think I'm taking Mike's suggestion and applying a smooth coat of plaster to the entire river bottom. I'm worried that no matter how many coats of paint, the grain and cracks of the plywood will bleed through.
ROBERT PETRICK...Do you have any views from the timeframe between No 1 and No 2? The reason I'm asking is to find out if the eye can catch the optical illusion of depth from the shaded painted deck before applying the heavy coat of gloss polyurethane.....
All of the water scenes were done some time ago, so I don't recall how long it took to go from bare plywood to glossy water.
The Durabond sets in about 90 minutes, and I would have left it to fully harden for a couple of days. The painting was done with a 2" brush, with both the brown and grey/green applied "wet" so that they could be blended together a bit where the colours meet. That would have been left to dry for a couple of days, and then the white (Pollyscale Reefer White, applied with a 1/2" brush) would have been added to the "faster moving" water. I'd guess that I may have left it sit for a week or so after that, simply to ensure that adding the clear finish wouldn't have any adverse effect on the paint. The clear finish was applied according to the directions on the can, which indicate dry-to-the-touch in one hour, and re-coat after four hours. All three coats were applied the same day. The finish is extremely durable, as it's a good place to take photos, and many cameras have sat on the water for eye-level views.
I hadn't had any experience doing this or using this combination of materials, so it was more of an experiment for me, and I didn't want to mess-up by being in too much of a rush - there were lots of other things to occupy my time while I waited for things to set or dry.
Here's a couple of aerial views of Chippawa Creek...
There's an abrupt change of elevation just upstream from what can be seen in the photos, but I didn't bother modelling it as a waterfall, because even from above, it wouldn't be visible from the aisle.
Here's the Maitland River, as seen from above (all aerial photos courtesy of Secord Air Services), just before it empties into Lake Erie (the real Maitland River actually empties into Lake Huron, but calling it Lake Erie better-suits the modelled area).The photo with the smoke from the loco and the mist over the lake is the look which I wanted, but the aerial view, below, destroys any illusions...
...while a true eye-level view is very similar to what I would see standing on the shore of Lake Erie or of very close-by Lake Ontario...
I also did a small area representing an inlet of Lake Erie, but it's difficult to photograph at eye-level...
The inlet is only 9" front its front edge to the backdrop and the layout in this area only 20" deep. The waves took some time to create (and redo as they repeatedly settled) but I stuck with it and was able to impart the curl just before the Durabond began to set.In the first of the two photos above, there's a strip of paper against the backdrop, coloured with pencil crayons, representing a spit of land stretching out into the lake, but it's out-of-focus. My intention is to eventually paint it directly onto the wall, as in-person, it does create an illusion of distance. I've seen similar scenes along Erie's shores, and they were the inspiration for that attempt.
If you're going to plaster-over the plywood, I'd strongly suggest Durabond, rather than drywall mud. It comes in varying setting times indicated by the number following the Durabond name. From the Durabond site:
DURABOND 20 joint compound sets in about 20-30 minutes; DURABOND 45 joint compound sets in about 30-80 minutes; DURABOND 90 joint compound sets in about 85-130 minutes; and DURABOND 210 joint compound sets in about 180-240 minutes. smoothed before set or while damp, but not completely hardened.
Before applying the Durabond, I sprayed the plywood lightly with some "wet" water, my thought being to prevent the plywood from drawing too much water out of the Durabond, and perhaps altering the hardening process or weakening the finished product. There have been no cracks in any of it, whether 1/8" thick or, in some places, almost 2" thick (filled-in an area originally intended to be a swamp).
Durabond is available at any of the big box building stores, lumber yards, hardware stores, etc. and comes in various quantities, from, I think, 5lb. boxes to 33lb. bags. It's also useful for casting your own bridge piers and abutments, and can be used in Woodland Scenics rock moulds, too.