Not as structural support, but laid on top of plywood.
I would lay the Cascade Rail Supply homasote roadbed on top of the tiles. I didn't want to use a plastic/foam based product, but stick to wood/paper fiberous products.
Normally I would lay sheet homasote, then the CalScale product, but I can't find Homasote within 100 miles of my SE US location.
Was wondering if anyone had experience using ceiling tiles on their layout. Or general thoughts.
- Douglas
Overall sound deadening. I want sheet homasote on top of plywood, then roadbed. I could put cork roadbed over sheet homasote (if I could find it around here) but I went with the Cascade Rail Supply product.
They seem similar to me. Wondering if anyone had any direct experience to share.
eaglescoutIsn't Homasote a similar composition to ceiling tiles? Why would you use both?
Ceiling tiles are a lot less dense than Homasote and I doubt they would hold spikes or track nails.
Personally if I use sheet Homasote, it is for a rail yard where I don't need cork and the track is essentially at ground level. If I use cork, it is over plywood or OSB. I've never installed cord roadbed over Homasote.
If this is strictly for sound deadening, have you tested it after ballast has been installed and glued in place? Most people comment that it's after the ballast is secured with glue that they notice more of a sound issue.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My worth, why not? Maybe "glue" the tiles to the plywood with latex caulk, and then use the same caulk to glue down the road bed.
I would think that with the Casscade RS road bed, you could still use spikes to secure the track, or, if not, the caulk.
Mike.
My You Tube
I have tried ceiling tiles and have not yet ruled them out for further use. They are less dense than homasote. They do not take spikes at all. Even nails and brads. I use adhesive caulk so have no problems with that, but be aware that they do not "work" like homasote.
Cutting them creates dust of about the same annoyance level. I have no idea what they are made of - from a health perspective.
The nice thing about homasote is that if you can get a sheet of a workable size (I buy mine in 2' x 4' "handi-panels; my car is too small to deal with a 4' x 8' sheet even if I could find them) you can get fairly long pieces for tangents and curves. Ceiling tiles of the kind I get are small and thus more fussy even with their tongue and groove edges that fit together. By the way sometimes you can talk a store into making a deal on cracked or otherwise unsalable ceiling tiles. They seem somewhat prone to breakage at the store.
Dave Nelson
riogrande5761 eaglescout Isn't Homasote a similar composition to ceiling tiles? Why would you use both? Ceiling tiles are a lot less dense than Homasote and I doubt they would hold spikes or track nails. Personally if I use sheet Homasote, it is for a rail yard where I don't need cork and the track is essentially at ground level. If I use cork, it is over plywood or OSB. I've never installed cord roadbed over Homasote. If this is strictly for sound deadening, have you tested it after ballast has been installed and glued in place? Most people comment that it's after the ballast is secured with glue that they notice more of a sound issue.
eaglescout Isn't Homasote a similar composition to ceiling tiles? Why would you use both?
I assume hardened glued ballast will be noisier directly on plywood, creating more of a druming effect, than if there is a layer of homasote on top of the ply. Especially if I use a softer adhesive like caulk to affix the homasote (or ceiling tiles) to the ply and also the Cascade road bed to the homasote (or ceiling tiles).
Good point about the difference in overall density. I thought about that but I don't know if less density would cause any problems in a material way. As long as the tiles are dense enough, that is the question.
I have used ceiling tiles on three layouts and I was pleased with the results. I never paid retail for them I got some from a broken package at the back of either Home Depot or Lowes. I also found some at a Habitat Re-store. They seemed to take pins (quiliting pins) to secure the track for n-scale. Of course I put the good side down. There are joints to fill in and they cause some dust when cutting but if i were to build another layout, I would use them again. Bottom line - cheap, easy to transport home and easy to work with.
dknelson Cutting them creates dust of about the same annoyance level. I have no idea what they are made of - from a health perspective.
Tiles from the 40's through the early 90's have a good chance of having some asbestos in them.
More modern tiles are usually a mixture of mineral wool, clay, perlite, and cellulose, mixed with starch and water.
I'd cut it out side, but on the commercial jobs like schools and such that I was on, the guys cut them inside, and seemed to be no big deal. They usually didn't even wear masks.
Doughless Not as structural support, but laid on top of plywood. I would lay the Cascade Rail Supply homasote roadbed on top of the tiles. I didn't want to use a plastic/foam based product, but stick to wood/paper fiberous products. Normally I would lay sheet homasote, then the CalScale product, but I can't find Homasote within 100 miles of my SE US location. Was wondering if anyone had experience using ceiling tiles on their layout. Or general thoughts.
Put the Cascade roadbed directly on to the wood, no need for homasote under it.
Been doing it that way for 40 years now.
Sheldon
mbinsewi dknelson Cutting them creates dust of about the same annoyance level. I have no idea what they are made of - from a health perspective. Tiles from the 40's through the early 90's have a good chance of having some asbestos in them. More modern tiles are usually a mixture of mineral wool, clay, perlite, and cellulose, mixed with starch and water. I'd cut it out side, but on the commercial jobs like schools and such that I was on, the guys cut them inside, and seemed to be no big deal. They usually didn't even wear masks. Mike.
Really? I think not. MAYBE, commercial tiles in the 40's thru the early 60's, but likely not even many of them unless they were marketed as insulating.
Doughlessbut I can't find Homasote within 100 miles of my SE US location.
You can't find this at your local Home Depot? If you ask for homasote, that's probably true. Ask them for "sound board" and they might have a stack of that. It's the same stuff.
I had a similar problem locally (in Pennsylvania) when I asked for Masonite. All I got was a blank stare. They call it particle board or hard board.
maxman Doughless but I can't find Homasote within 100 miles of my SE US location. You can't find this at your local Home Depot? If you ask for homasote, that's probably true. Ask them for "sound board" and they might have a stack of that. It's the same stuff. I had a similar problem locally (in Pennsylvania) when I asked for Masonite. All I got was a blank stare. They call it particle board or hard board.
Doughless but I can't find Homasote within 100 miles of my SE US location.
Its called sound board or sound board 440. Not available within 100 miles. Actually, Florence KY is the closest.
Its a product for the northern climate, apparently.
I guess people in the South don't build home theaters or other rooms where they want sound deadening - that's more what's it's for vs insulating to keep the cold out.
There's really little point to 2 layers of homasote if you are using the Cascade roadbed. That already provides the sound deadenign og homasote over the plywood, a second layer of homasote wouldn't do a whole lot - to cut sound transmission you need density differences at the layers, not multiple layers of the same density. That's the science of it - there have been a few articles done on the subject over the years. There will always be peopel who SAY "x sounds quiter than Y" but remember there are people who call themselves 'audiphiles' who think using 10 gauge speaker wire carefully crafted in an oxygen-free environment by nude virgins sounds better than plain copper 18 gauge speaker wire on their 50 watt stereo system. Or that suspending the speakers wires off the floor on little wooden pyramids keeps 'vibration' out of the electrical signal. Or replacing the knobs on their equipment with hand crafted exotic hardwood knobs improes the "ambience". Or special directional Ethernet cables make their computer link sound better. The density change in stacked materials is actual science - it's why a submarine can hide underneath a pocket of slightly cooler, dender water in the ocean, among other things.
I dilute my white glue for ballast with alcohol, because water with a drop of soap just does not work around here. One beneficial side effect is that the white glue dries somewhat rubery when diluted with alcohol NOT a rock hard mass of ballast and glue. ANd I use caulk to attach eash later - roedbed to the base, track to the roadbed. No nails to form sound conductors right through all the layers. So in the end, I have different density materials, connected by a somewhat flexible adhesive instead of solid sound conductors, and even though my last two layouts were built on pink foam, neither one has had any rumble or drum effect as trains rolled over it - all I ever hear are the sound decoders and the metal wheels sssssssssing along the rails (and different brands of wheels don't do that, just the P2K ones).
I'm sure I'll have some ceiling tiles left over after I re-do my basement. The ones I removed as part of the demo - they are going straight int he trach, they are disgusting and of no use. Using them as roadbed seems like not a great idea, although broken and stacked they make decent slate/shale formations for scenery.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I was thinking Cascade homasote, caulk, homasote, caulk, then plywood would give a sandwich of different densities. Replacing homasote with ceiling tile would provide yet a different density to the sandwich.
If I use screws or nails, that makes a hard transference of vibrations through and past the sandwich, where as the caulk would tend to isolate each layer, IMO.
Why the adversion to foam?
Nothing really. Seems like its lack of weight for movable layouts is the major advantage. I like other materials better.
rrinkerI guess people in the South don't build home theaters or other rooms where they want sound deadening - that's more what's it's for vs insulating to keep the cold out.
Owens Corning 703 has owned the home theater market for years.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
[quote user="rrinker"]
remember there are people who call themselves 'audiphiles' who think using 10 gauge speaker wire carefully crafted in an oxygen-free environment by nude virgins sounds better than plain copper 18 gauge speaker wire on their 50 watt stereo system.
LOL! I've said that for years, but never quite so eloquently. I'm going to remember that quote. Back in the day I had a buddy who really drank the audiohile marketing Kool-Aid. Once I had him over to check out my then new system, which sounded very nice, with new high-end Paradigm tower speakers. After his glowing approval, I showed him the (temporary!) speaker wires, which were just made from dirty old used 24 gauge phone wire.
Sorry for the diversion, back to ceiling tiles...
Found a relatively local wholesale lumber dealer who has 440 soundboard in stock. Comes in standard 4 x 8 sizes but they don't offer cutting services. So I'll buy a few 2x4 smooth ceiling tiles and see how it goes.
BMMECNYC Why the adversion to foam?
I have an adversion to foam, I want benchwork, and secenery, that I can lean my weight on.
As for sound deading, as a designer and builder of HiFi speakers, which are not connected with oxygen free cables, the more rigid a structure, the less it resonates, the less noise it transmits, amplifies or modifies.
That's why I build layouts with 3/4" plywood, lots of quality Poplar lumber, and plaster on wire screen scenery.
And homasote sheets for yards, etc, and Cascade roadbed on well supported 3/4" plywood or dimensional lumber.
Heavy and solid means less vibration in the first place, less "drum" effect, rather than trying to absorb or dampen vibrations after they start.
I build my speaker cabinets from 3/4" MDF.....
DoughlessFound a relatively local wholesale lumber dealer who has 440 soundboard in stock. Comes in standard 4 x 8 sizes but they don't offer cutting services. So I'll buy a few 2x4 smooth ceiling tiles and see how it goes.
Hi Douglas,
I worked for Home Depot in Canada in the Millwork Dept. for a while after I retired. One of the products that I had to deal with were ceiling tiles. All I can say is that they are extremely fragile and they are prone to disintegrate if you so much as look at them the wrong way. Every single one of my shifts ended with taking a half dozen ceiling tiles to the compactor. I do not dispute that others have used them successfully, but I have to take Sheldon's side. Any contact with them will likely cause them to break down. So, if you choose to use them, my advice would be to never lean on your layout or do anything else to disturb them. If your layout does not require you to support yourself when you have to lean in then there might not be any issues, but I see them as an opportunity for damage to happen.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Doughless Found a relatively local wholesale lumber dealer who has 440 soundboard in stock. Comes in standard 4 x 8 sizes but they don't offer cutting services. So I'll buy a few 2x4 smooth ceiling tiles and see how it goes. Hi Douglas, I worked for Home Depot in Canada in the Millwork Dept. for a while after I retired. One of the products that I had to deal with were ceiling tiles. All I can say is that they are extremely fragile and they are prone to disintegrate if you so much as look at them the wrong way. Every single one of my shifts ended with taking a half dozen ceiling tiles to the compactor. I do not dispute that others have used them successfully, but I have to take Sheldon's side. Any contact with them will likely cause them to break down. So, if you choose to use them, my advice would be to never lean on your layout or do anything else to disturb them. If your layout does not require you to support yourself when you have to lean in then there might not be any issues, but I see them as an opportunity for damage to happen. Dave
Doughless Found a relatively local wholesale lumber dealer who has 440 soundboard in stock. Comes in standard 4 x 8 sizes but they don't offer cutting services. So I'll buy a few 2x4 smooth ceiling tiles and see how it goes.
Thanks Dave. That experience is what I was looking for. I was concerned about density and it sems they will be too light to make a sturdy enough base.
It stands to reason that when someone comes up with an unusual way to do something in the hobby, there's a reason it's not very popular in the first place.
I'll try to schmooze the big lumber yard into cutting a piece of 4 x 8 440 sound board for me......
If I could find the stuff I used to build a small shelf layout I built some 25+ years ago, I'd used that as my subroadbed. It wasn't MDF and it wasn't chip board, or anything made up of large particles like that. But it was heavy, and very dense. Simply set on metal shelf brackets, no framing, with the track on cork on top of it, there was NO sound. Downside is, it was HEAVY, even an 18" wide, 6 foot long shelf piece was a good bit of weight. But strong - above the layout shelf I had another piece, on the same metal brackets, packed end to end with railroad magazines and books. NO sag between supports.
My desk I've had for almost 30 years is made of the same stuff, just covered with a veneer. When I bought it, I had to leave the box in the truck and bring it int he house piece by piece, it was far too heavy for me to lift. Movers curse me, even emptied with the drawers removed it is HEAVY. I can climb on it (and I've, frankly, obese) and it supports me. Unlike so much DIY furniture, this thing has stood up over the years and multiple moves. here are chipped edges in the veneer - which is how I can see that the underlying material is the same as I used for that shelf layout, just 1/2" thick instead of the 3/4" I used for the shelves. I have not seen the same material in any of the big box stored in the past 10 years at least, so perhaps it is no longer made. As dense as it was, it really deadened the sound, and would probably make great speaker cabinets, even better than MDF.
rrinker If I could find the stuff I used to build a small shelf layout I built some 25+ years ago, I'd used that as my subroadbed. It wasn't MDF and it wasn't chip board, or anything made up of large particles like that. But it was heavy, and very dense. Simply set on metal shelf brackets, no framing, with the track on cork on top of it, there was NO sound. Downside is, it was HEAVY, even an 18" wide, 6 foot long shelf piece was a good bit of weight. But strong - above the layout shelf I had another piece, on the same metal brackets, packed end to end with railroad magazines and books. NO sag between supports. My desk I've had for almost 30 years is made of the same stuff, just covered with a veneer. When I bought it, I had to leave the box in the truck and bring it int he house piece by piece, it was far too heavy for me to lift. Movers curse me, even emptied with the drawers removed it is HEAVY. I can climb on it (and I've, frankly, obese) and it supports me. Unlike so much DIY furniture, this thing has stood up over the years and multiple moves. here are chipped edges in the veneer - which is how I can see that the underlying material is the same as I used for that shelf layout, just 1/2" thick instead of the 3/4" I used for the shelves. I have not seen the same material in any of the big box stored in the past 10 years at least, so perhaps it is no longer made. As dense as it was, it really deadened the sound, and would probably make great speaker cabinets, even better than MDF. --Randy
I have some 3/4 MDF leftover that I used on my old layout. Stuff is very dense but very heavy and difficult to handle in large sections. I won't use it again.
Well, if you want quiet... I didn't say it was easy to handle, a 4x8 sheet of this stuff would be near impossible to move without help. Even small piecesof this stuff, as I mentioned, are quite heavy, and almost certainly overkill. I have a 2x4 piece of 3/4" MDF, and the same size piece of 3/4" plywood. They Plywood is not exaclty lightweight, but ompared to the 2x4 of MDF, it's a feather. In testing both materials with various roadbeds and tracks, I didn't notice much of a difference. Certainly not enough to justify the disadvantages of the MDF.
I mean, if you want SILENT subroadbed - put forms on your risers and pour concrete in them, and they put the homsasote or cork roadbed over it. You'll definitely not have any sound amplification from the structure. Laying brocks as the subroadbed may work just as well. Neither is practical. I do think people tend to go overboard on this whole sound issue. Good locos don;t have noisy coffee grinder gears to begin with, and a little rumble isn't a bad thing, real trains are LOUD. I've built layouts on many difference surface types, and it was only the plain plywood 4x8 combned with noisy locos that generated any truly objectionable sound, a continuous whirrrr-whirrrr-whirrrrr that could only be an electric motor and gears generated by 50's and 60's era Flyer and Mantua/Tyco locos.
Sparky Rail LOL! I've said that for years, but never quite so eloquently. I'm going to remember that quote. Back in the day I had a buddy who really drank the audiohile marketing Kool-Aid. Once I had him over to check out my then new system, which sounded very nice, with new high-end Paradigm tower speakers. After his glowing approval, I showed him the (temporary!) speaker wires, which were just made from dirty old used 24 gauge phone wire.
LOL! I've said that for years, but never quite so eloquently. I'm going to remember that quote. Back in the day I had a buddy who really drank the audiohile marketing Kool-Aid. Once I had him over to check out my then new system, which sounded very nice, with new high-end Paradigm tower speakers.
After his glowing approval, I showed him the (temporary!) speaker wires, which were just made from dirty old used 24 gauge phone wire.
And? (punchline)
DoughlessIt stands to reason that when someone comes up with an unusual way to do something in the hobby, there's a reason it's not very popular in the first place.
Don't give up on ceiling tiles entirely. They have been used to make very realistic rock strata when doing scenery. There have been some excellent examples shown on the forums but I can't remember by whom. Maybe somebody can show us some pictures.
hon30critter Doughless It stands to reason that when someone comes up with an unusual way to do something in the hobby, there's a reason it's not very popular in the first place. Hi Douglas, Don't give up on ceiling tiles entirely. They have been used to make very realistic rock strata when doing scenery. There have been some excellent examples shown on the forums but I can't remember by whom. Maybe somebody can show us some pictures. Dave
Doughless It stands to reason that when someone comes up with an unusual way to do something in the hobby, there's a reason it's not very popular in the first place.
Yes, I've seen that work. The cut open tiles stacked up give the appearance of layered rock.
Regarding my original question, I think Model Railroad Planning (forget the year) had an article showing Jim Six's layout made entirely of ceiling tiles, land forms and road bed. One big contoured mass.
I'm still going to head to the local HD just to see how dense or fragile the tiles actually are.
Douglas,
Jim Six has had several articles in various publications about his use of ceiling tile subroadbed on his most recent layout. There were some discussions about shaping the tiles for below grade scenery, and if I recall correctly Jim recommended misting the tiles with water before cutting/shaping the tiles. There was also some concern about using wet scenery techniques, which could cause the tiles to swell. I wish I recalled more of the specifics. Like you I am interested in the ceiling tiles for several reasons. I cannot transport or cut 4x8 sheets of anything, I went from a large home to a condo last year. I have experimented many times with the ever popular extruded foam, and I hate the noise and fragility. Despite a lack of power tools and workbench I am determined to try and make my new switching layout “quiet”, and solid, yet keep the sections/modules from weighing a ton. I think we are in the same camp. I hope we can both find a way to achieve our goals without having to resort to extreme measures.
It has been a while since I have used homasote, but when I have used it in the past I loved it. Despite living in the northeast it seems harder to find, though.