Very impressive and very nicely-done!
Wayne
Following up from yesterday . . .
I did not have any 0.030" sheet styrene on hand like I thought, so I used 0.010" sheet instead. Being thinner, It pretty much shows the lumps and bumps of the skeleton frame and is a lot more flexible and kinda looks like a tent, but for purposes of this experiment it will be okay. The 0.030" sheet would give a smoother appearance and provide more rigidity to the structure.
Also notice that the eaves of the roof are about 1/4" short on each side. Apparently, the overall length of the curved arches is a bit more than I estimated. Dang. I suppose I could've measured . . . but these are just the kind of things you discover by going through a pre-build mockup like this.
Here's a photo of the load test. Success.
Here endeth the experiment.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Robert,
Awesome work my friend!
I'm glad you are participating in this. I chose this railroad to model because of the fact I went to college just a few blocks where this station sat, the train station with clock tower, the bascule bridges, but most of all... the train shed! It was important to me that whatever railroad I modeled has a large train shed.
Unfortunately I'm tied up working on some stuff for work today and need to spend some time with the family, but I will get back on this soon. Thank you for the inspiration. I'm hoping you continue to model this. It seems to intrigue you and you certainly have the talent.
Ed
Semi newbie HO scale modeler coming from the O scale world
That's really cool Robert!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I am amazed at both your works. Even more amazed that Robert is co-modeling.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'm just about finished with an experiment to determine how this structure might be built. The goal is to see how delicate and airy the framing trusses can be made and how stable and sturdy the finished shed can be.
I cut out the pieces and parts needed to form the structural skeleton of one complete bay . . . two double truss arches and four purlins connecting the composite arch ribs. Everything was cut from a sheet of 0.080" styrene, and the truss webs, struts, and chords have a nominal dimension of 0.080" by 0.080".
Then assembled the parts into the skeleton frame. The spacing of the arch ribs is 5.42" center-to-center based on drawings posted earlier by the OP.
I will add a 6.50" by 12" piece of 0.030" sheet styrene to represent the roof decking, and then after the adhesives have set up, I will test the structure with a few bricks loaded on the roof saddle-bag-style to see what happens. I'm not expecting any surprises.
mrrdad ROBERT PETRICK I kinda gravitated to the idea of single trusses with members and chords and struts and whatnot with a cross-sectional area of 0.08" by 0.08". This is the main thing I struggled with. I went with .100" members with .104" thick material. I'm not totally happy with the looks, but it's very solid. I might try to bring it down to .080" using .075" material. Ed
ROBERT PETRICK I kinda gravitated to the idea of single trusses with members and chords and struts and whatnot with a cross-sectional area of 0.08" by 0.08".
I kinda gravitated to the idea of single trusses with members and chords and struts and whatnot with a cross-sectional area of 0.08" by 0.08".
This is the main thing I struggled with. I went with .100" members with .104" thick material. I'm not totally happy with the looks, but it's very solid. I might try to bring it down to .080" using .075" material.
Yeah. Just like the prototype trusses are extremely strong in only one axis, they are vulnerable to secondary stresses in the other axes. But once assembled and the last member is in place, the forces align and cancel each other out and the structure stands as a unified whole.
I model in styrene (well, actually, usually, ABS) and delicate spidery pieces and parts do come together and the assembled structure is remarkably sturdy and dimensionally stable.
I'd try to cut the steel as thin as possible, especially if you're gonna assemble double trusses into a 3D space frame. But please don't be too overly influenced by my ideas. You gotta go with what you got.
Good luck.
mrrdad ROBERT PETRICK Hey Ed- I've only researched the past few days. Hard finding stuff in this Grand Central Station, but tons of stuff on that other one. What era do you model? I'm asking to see if you're gonna deface that elegant grandfather clock tower with B&O. Robert Yeah, sorry. It will be the 1950's era. So I think it will have the B&O logo as well as the B&O billboard on the building roof. I have to make sure those were there then.
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Ed- I've only researched the past few days. Hard finding stuff in this Grand Central Station, but tons of stuff on that other one. What era do you model? I'm asking to see if you're gonna deface that elegant grandfather clock tower with B&O. Robert
Hey Ed-
I've only researched the past few days. Hard finding stuff in this Grand Central Station, but tons of stuff on that other one.
What era do you model? I'm asking to see if you're gonna deface that elegant grandfather clock tower with B&O.
Yeah, sorry. It will be the 1950's era. So I think it will have the B&O logo as well as the B&O billboard on the building roof. I have to make sure those were there then.
No need for you to apologize for anything, but I'm a little embarrassed I didn't notice the tag line in your signature.
ROBERT PETRICK hon30critter I noticed that the trusses were actually double trusses with webbing in between and I was wondering how you were going to address that. Sounds like you have the answer! Yeah, I noticed that as well which is why I asked the OP just how nit-picky he was about details on this project. There are also trussed purlins between the bays and other fiddly bits as well. Not sure if I'm glad or amused how he's gonna proceed . . . so we'll just go with impressed for now. I got interested in this thread when the OP asked how I'd fabricate these things. So, I pondered the idea and then did a little experimenting and cut out a couple and then pondered some more. I kinda gravitated to the idea of single trusses with members and chords and struts and whatnot with a cross-sectional area of 0.08" by 0.08". The idea was to capture the essence of the lightweight and lacey structure but still have it hold together while I constructed it with my crude equipment. Cutting out the truss as a single piece would require a machine with larger capacity than I have. But even if I could fabricate such a piece, I don't think I would. There'd be a lot of dead space and wasted material under the arch. Here's a sketch: My solution would be to design the pieces and parts so that they'd be easy to handle and assemble and make efficient use of the sheet goods. I figure there are 15 arches needed: 4 with rounded roof, and 11 with clerestory roof. 15 arches make 14 bays. Notice that Ed's double arches mean twice as many assemblies? Did I mention that I'm impressed with his approach? Robert
hon30critter I noticed that the trusses were actually double trusses with webbing in between and I was wondering how you were going to address that. Sounds like you have the answer!
I noticed that the trusses were actually double trusses with webbing in between and I was wondering how you were going to address that. Sounds like you have the answer!
Yeah, I noticed that as well which is why I asked the OP just how nit-picky he was about details on this project. There are also trussed purlins between the bays and other fiddly bits as well. Not sure if I'm glad or amused how he's gonna proceed . . . so we'll just go with impressed for now.
I got interested in this thread when the OP asked how I'd fabricate these things. So, I pondered the idea and then did a little experimenting and cut out a couple and then pondered some more. I kinda gravitated to the idea of single trusses with members and chords and struts and whatnot with a cross-sectional area of 0.08" by 0.08". The idea was to capture the essence of the lightweight and lacey structure but still have it hold together while I constructed it with my crude equipment.
Cutting out the truss as a single piece would require a machine with larger capacity than I have. But even if I could fabricate such a piece, I don't think I would. There'd be a lot of dead space and wasted material under the arch. Here's a sketch:
My solution would be to design the pieces and parts so that they'd be easy to handle and assemble and make efficient use of the sheet goods.
I figure there are 15 arches needed: 4 with rounded roof, and 11 with clerestory roof. 15 arches make 14 bays. Notice that Ed's double arches mean twice as many assemblies? Did I mention that I'm impressed with his approach?
You have a good eye and have hit the nail right on the head. Your observations are 100% correct. Last night I worked out the cad files for the other arches. Still working on how I want to the purlins. I have also worked out the cad file for the arched glass curtain wall at the rear of the shed.
I have literally spent the last year researching this station.
mrrdadHi Dave, As you suggested in an earlier post, I had to "beef" up the trusses a little in order for the laser to cut them well. They still look good
I agree! They look good, and given the overall incredible impression that the structure will make, nobody will notice how thick the beams are.
hon30critter Ed, It's great that you have an employer who allows you to use their equipment in this way. I noticed that the trusses were actually double trusses with webbing in between and I was wondering how you were going to address that. Sounds like you have the answer! Like any good steel worker, I'm riveted to this thread!! Sorry, couldn't resist. Dave
Ed,
It's great that you have an employer who allows you to use their equipment in this way.
Like any good steel worker, I'm riveted to this thread!! Sorry, couldn't resist.
Hi Dave,
As you suggested in an earlier post, I had to "beef" up the trusses a little in order for the laser to cut them well. They still look good
As you will see in the photos I have attached below, the actual trusses are not flat, as my piece of steel in my last post above is. Each truss will consist of two of those pieces with diagonal cross braces on each side. I will just tack weld it all together with my tig welder. Not sure if this makes sense. I'm currently working on a jig to help that process go much faster.
Okay,
So I finally got my old and tired behind in gear. This morning I got up and made a cad drawing of the truss. I exported it as a .dxf file to a flash drive. I then took it in to work and loaded into the computer at the laser. I can work on projects at work, but I have to pay then for the steel usage. I cut it out of 12ga (.104") steel. All in all it took me less than 45 minutes for all processes combined and it cost me $3.06. I thought it came out pretty good.
mrrdadYes, I intend to model the entire station. Clock tower and all. it will go on a 18ft long peninsula.
Ed, that will be some impressive modelling!
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Ed- I followed the link and saw the photos. Plenty of interesting stuff. Another few nosy questions to follow up on my previous nosy questions . . . Do I understand that you intend to scratch-build the station as well as the train shed? Do you intend to include a few sidewalks and adjacent streets? Surely you're gonna include the high clock tower? I figure such a complex (conceived as a working diorama-within-the-layout) would take up an entire 4x8 sheet. Possibly the stub end of a peninsula? Have you worked out the area of the layout where this will sit? Have you started a thread for layout design and/or build? I always admire someone who's not afraid to think big. Robert
I followed the link and saw the photos. Plenty of interesting stuff.
Another few nosy questions to follow up on my previous nosy questions . . .
Do I understand that you intend to scratch-build the station as well as the train shed? Do you intend to include a few sidewalks and adjacent streets? Surely you're gonna include the high clock tower? I figure such a complex (conceived as a working diorama-within-the-layout) would take up an entire 4x8 sheet. Possibly the stub end of a peninsula?
Have you worked out the area of the layout where this will sit? Have you started a thread for layout design and/or build?
I always admire someone who's not afraid to think big.
Hi Robert,
You aren't being nosey at all.
Yes, I intend to model the entire station. Clock tower and all. it will go on a 18ft long peninsula.
I haven't started a layout/build thread yet. I'm still working on the building it's going in. Probably a few months away from that being done.
I have a few layout possibilities in mind. I will have some surrounding buildings and streets. I have plenty of photos to go off of. The Chicago river was the west boundry for the station. I will have the St. Charles Airline and B&O bascule bridges crossing the river. The track going through the city is all elevated. I will have plenty of viaducts and street scenes. The era I am modeling is the early 1950's. It will be a combination of freight and passenger trains. I plan on having two freight yards that served the line (Robey St. and the Barr yard) as well as the lincoln coach yard.
I have done over a year worth of research, but I'm finally starting to get moving on it. I have 10-12 years until retirement. I doubt I'll have it finished by then!
I will start a layout thread in a couple of months.
Here is a clickable link to Ed's pictures.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146955398@N05/sets/72157690143965573/
Mighty impressive structure! 3D printing would be ideal to capture the detail but you would probably have to take out a second mortgage to cover the cost!
ROBERT PETRICK A couple of questions for the OP . . . Do you have more technical drawings of the prototype similar to the one you posted? If so, or even if not, how much detail do you plan to incorporate into the model? Are you gonna be nit-picky and try to get a lot of fiddly bits in the model? I estimate the model will be just over 6 feet long and about 2 feet wide and about 1 foot tall. Oh yeah, I assuming you're working in HO. I also estimate there will be about 6 bays with the full rounded roof (3 at each end) and about 10 bays with the clerestory roof. Is this close to what you have in mind? Technical drawing would clear this up. I've only seen a postcard of the old structure, so I'm only guesstimating. Thanks. Not nosy, but I'm curious in a healthy, technical sort of way. Robert
A couple of questions for the OP . . .
Do you have more technical drawings of the prototype similar to the one you posted?
If so, or even if not, how much detail do you plan to incorporate into the model? Are you gonna be nit-picky and try to get a lot of fiddly bits in the model?
I estimate the model will be just over 6 feet long and about 2 feet wide and about 1 foot tall. Oh yeah, I assuming you're working in HO.
I also estimate there will be about 6 bays with the full rounded roof (3 at each end) and about 10 bays with the clerestory roof. Is this close to what you have in mind? Technical drawing would clear this up. I've only seen a postcard of the old structure, so I'm only guesstimating.
Thanks. Not nosy, but I'm curious in a healthy, technical sort of way.
You are about right on with your estimation on the size of the train shed dimensions.
Here is a link to my photo album with more douments and reference photos:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmapC1hV
Yes, the layout will be HO. It's going in a 1600 sq ft space. The station and train shed will be the centerpiece of the layout. I have debated to build the station and shed to scale or use some selective compression. I'm building it to scale.... I think.
Edit:
If you look in the photos you will see the detail of the trusses.
You could build it like the real one was with small (small here is is relative" sections bolted together with gussets on the curved sectons.
That's excellent! The structure will be impressive.
ROBERT PETRICK Hey Ed- Here's a photo of a couple of pieces I cut out from 0.093" (3/32") sheet styrene. It was quickly designed and quickly fabricated. The pieces have only been minimally cleaned up and they are a little ragged. Just doing this to get an idea of how it could be built. The size is pretty close to what the posted image shows. I cut them out in pieces because my little micro mill is not large enough to hold the stock for a single piece. That would require a bed size of about 20" by 12". There are a lot of desktop laser cutters that can handle that size. Keep in mind that these are only one bay of the inner ribs of the barrel vaulted structure. No telling how many are needed for the entire structure. The posted image shows some purlins and membranes and details and whatnot that make up the sheathing that forms the outer roof and walls. If I was doing this, I'd put a little more thought into how the fairing and skin of the structure would be fabricated. The dimensions and layout can be worked out by any competent CAD guy, and the pieces can be fabricated by any competent machinist. The tools and equipment mentioned earlier seem more than adequate for the task. Hope this helps.
Here's a photo of a couple of pieces I cut out from 0.093" (3/32") sheet styrene.
It was quickly designed and quickly fabricated. The pieces have only been minimally cleaned up and they are a little ragged. Just doing this to get an idea of how it could be built. The size is pretty close to what the posted image shows. I cut them out in pieces because my little micro mill is not large enough to hold the stock for a single piece. That would require a bed size of about 20" by 12". There are a lot of desktop laser cutters that can handle that size.
Keep in mind that these are only one bay of the inner ribs of the barrel vaulted structure. No telling how many are needed for the entire structure. The posted image shows some purlins and membranes and details and whatnot that make up the sheathing that forms the outer roof and walls. If I was doing this, I'd put a little more thought into how the fairing and skin of the structure would be fabricated.
The dimensions and layout can be worked out by any competent CAD guy, and the pieces can be fabricated by any competent machinist. The tools and equipment mentioned earlier seem more than adequate for the task.
Hope this helps.
Awesome job Robert!
What micro mill do you have?.. or did you build it yourself? I've been pondering building one myself.
I'm going to sit down tonight and start modeling the structure in Solidworks. That is when I will figure out more about how it will all piece together.
Thank you so much for your help and input. You guys are great.
ROBERT PETRICK If I had access to such a laser cutter, I would cut them from a single sheet of aircraft plywood. You can get aircraft plywood as thin as 1/64" in 3 plies. It seems like 3/32" in 7 plies would work out to scale and be more than strong and stiff enough. The cross section trussed ribs you're looking to fabricate will be about 20" across by 10" high in HO, with struts about 0.10" square. In the scheme of things that is not too big at all. Michael Rose could cut them as a single piece on his home shop desktop laser. Your laser most likely has a much greater capacity. Cutting them as two half-pieces would be, well, half as big. There are two large bridges on my N scale layout. Both are similar in nature to your proposed structure, and both are larger. The smaller one has a 30-inch clear span; the larger, 60 inches. The web struts and girders on each measure 0.10" by 0.10", about the same as what you propose. Photos posted on my layout build thread. Good luck. Robert
If I had access to such a laser cutter, I would cut them from a single sheet of aircraft plywood. You can get aircraft plywood as thin as 1/64" in 3 plies. It seems like 3/32" in 7 plies would work out to scale and be more than strong and stiff enough.
The cross section trussed ribs you're looking to fabricate will be about 20" across by 10" high in HO, with struts about 0.10" square. In the scheme of things that is not too big at all. Michael Rose could cut them as a single piece on his home shop desktop laser. Your laser most likely has a much greater capacity. Cutting them as two half-pieces would be, well, half as big.
There are two large bridges on my N scale layout. Both are similar in nature to your proposed structure, and both are larger. The smaller one has a 30-inch clear span; the larger, 60 inches. The web struts and girders on each measure 0.10" by 0.10", about the same as what you propose. Photos posted on my layout build thread.
Thanks Robert,
Unfortunately we can only cut steel or aluminum on our lasers. I think I'll stick to .100 x .100 styrene strips