Thanks Rich, Thanks Kevin
Always a pleasure to provide information I know. As I appreciate information shared with me that I don't know. I think that's what it's all about here
TF
Yes, I did miss it.
Thank you for your response, and all the work you put into the images. That answered a lot of what I wanted to know.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Track fiddler SeeYou190 Like I said, I will post the same question again at a later date after the disturbance in the force has drifted away. Until then... Kevin I don't know if you're aware of it but I answered your question in quite a bit of detail and provided some good information for you. It was right after all the chaos and you became upset and I'd have to say I didn't blame you a bit. Anyway my reply to you is back there and you may have missed it TF
SeeYou190 Like I said, I will post the same question again at a later date after the disturbance in the force has drifted away. Until then...
Like I said, I will post the same question again at a later date after the disturbance in the force has drifted away.
Until then...
Kevin I don't know if you're aware of it but I answered your question in quite a bit of detail and provided some good information for you.
It was right after all the chaos and you became upset and I'd have to say I didn't blame you a bit.
Anyway my reply to you is back there and you may have missed it
Rich
Alton Junction
selectorGood lord! Every thread gets wrung dry. Every one.
I know, and I am sorry.
I responded to this thread with a question about whether or not "finishing plaster" was suitable for use in building terrain on a model train layout.
I was hoping for some real world experience and the sharing of knowledge learned through that experience.
Down here in South Florida, a lot of building supplies that are easy to obtain elsewhere are hard to come by. I was hoping this was a suitable substitute for hydrocal.
Instead, Spike decided to pontificate from his holographic soapbox about all things that have nothing to do with model railroading. It has been suggested that I ignorant, arrogant, and uneducated. I certainly did not deserve these insults.
I had no idea that my query would result in such ugliness, but unfortunately the outcome has become almost predictable with the recent conversational trends where mean spirited spite has become typical.
Good lord!
Every thread gets wrung dry. Every one.
Overmod I was going to go into a couple of the remarkably fact-free 'fact' explanations in this interesting post, but little will be gained thereby. I would only note that some of this might be highly surprising to your father; you certainly didn't get it from him.
I was going to go into a couple of the remarkably fact-free 'fact' explanations in this interesting post, but little will be gained thereby. I would only note that some of this might be highly surprising to your father; you certainly didn't get it from him.
Regarding SDS, he says that, and I quote, "it is intended for the uneducated as well as the professional". I repeatedly point out that OSHA says, and I quote, "is not primarily intended for use by the general consumer, focusing instead on the hazards of working with the material in an occupational setting". To which LSM raises the straw man issue when there is no room for a straw man in those statements.
Others say to ignore LSM, but I continue to hope for his redemption and conversion. But, I am beginning to lose all hope, save for a miracle.
Technically the addition of "dolomitic hydroxide" (which is just an admixture of slaked lime with slaked magnesium oxide) would be less exothermic on further hydration than the likely equivalent for Hydrocal itself (which I think would use the high-early constituent of cement, tricalcium silicate). Someone with the time and interest could graph the exotherms of these, but I suspect even with the tiny percentage of cement in Hydrocal compared to the (likely) percentage of hydroxides in the finishing plaster, the difference won't be that great. (We could also pH-test for potential causticity, as any hydroxide-producing admixture will be alkaline/basic, and the potential unslaked MgO in dolomitic hydroxide as commercially made might reach measurable percentage)
Why the addition of 'dolomitic hydroxide' is "not what an intended hobby use requires" when the more active chemical constituent of it, slaked lime, is an active principle in Hydrocal, is interesting to consider, as is the inherent claim that straight plaster is preferable to Hydrocal for thin-shell scenery making.
I said it before and I'll say it again
I had an ex-wife once that was one of those know-it-all offensive people. After that I never had time for people like that anymore
A good friend of mine when I was young and still is my friend has a saying that I live by to this day. "Ignore a fool and he shall leave"
The bullheads still bite if you feed them
riogrande5761 Lastspikemike Always read the MSDS (SDS in the US.)
Lastspikemike Always read the MSDS (SDS in the US.)
Lastspikemike richhotrain Lastspikemike Well at the risk of provoking you I advise that you are very wrong there. Dangerously wrong. Utterly, completely 100% wrong. The very first thing you should check is the SDS (MSDS in Canada ) and it is intended for the uneducated as well as the professional. Actually, you are mistaken. OSHA makes it clear that an SDS "is not primarily intended for use by the general consumer, focusing instead on the hazards of working with the material in an occupational setting". The general consumer may rely on the packaging itself regarding directions for use. Rich Actually, I am not mistaken. I know exactly what I'm talking about. It is within my area of legal expertise. You think I said something I did not say. I was very exact in what I wrote. On American websites (including the US Gypsum) their .pdf material data safety sheets are named SDS on the link so I repeated that acronym for clarity. In Canada these sheets are always labelled MSDS or should be. I am not expert in any American law and do not pretend to be. I am expert in Canadian law, particularly industrial safety. These sheets are intended for the safety of the ordinary working person and are required to be functional for that. Ergo, they are also suitable for use by any consumer. If you don't already know what's in it, read the MSDS if you can locate it.
richhotrain Lastspikemike Well at the risk of provoking you I advise that you are very wrong there. Dangerously wrong. Utterly, completely 100% wrong. The very first thing you should check is the SDS (MSDS in Canada ) and it is intended for the uneducated as well as the professional. Actually, you are mistaken. OSHA makes it clear that an SDS "is not primarily intended for use by the general consumer, focusing instead on the hazards of working with the material in an occupational setting". The general consumer may rely on the packaging itself regarding directions for use. Rich
Lastspikemike Well at the risk of provoking you I advise that you are very wrong there. Dangerously wrong. Utterly, completely 100% wrong. The very first thing you should check is the SDS (MSDS in Canada ) and it is intended for the uneducated as well as the professional.
Well at the risk of provoking you I advise that you are very wrong there. Dangerously wrong. Utterly, completely 100% wrong.
The very first thing you should check is the SDS (MSDS in Canada ) and it is intended for the uneducated as well as the professional.
Actually, you are mistaken. OSHA makes it clear that an SDS "is not primarily intended for use by the general consumer, focusing instead on the hazards of working with the material in an occupational setting".
The general consumer may rely on the packaging itself regarding directions for use.
Actually, I am not mistaken. I know exactly what I'm talking about. It is within my area of legal expertise. You think I said something I did not say. I was very exact in what I wrote.
On American websites (including the US Gypsum) their .pdf material data safety sheets are named SDS on the link so I repeated that acronym for clarity. In Canada these sheets are always labelled MSDS or should be. I am not expert in any American law and do not pretend to be. I am expert in Canadian law, particularly industrial safety.
These sheets are intended for the safety of the ordinary working person and are required to be functional for that.
Ergo, they are also suitable for use by any consumer.
If you don't already know what's in it, read the MSDS if you can locate it.
There was another recent Woodland Scenics hydrocal thread. I'm not going to look for it. The OP was disappointed with the WS brand. There are multiple Hydrocal concoctions and USG is pretty fuzzy about the distinctions. They don't even offer a uniform set of comparisons between the different versions.
If the MSDS is so important, what are my risks working with it?
edit There is an SDS
OSHA says the SDS is a specified format of the MSDS to provide guidance to help workers who handle hazardous chemicals to become familiar with the format and understand the contents of the SDSs.
If I'm messing with a 50# bag, I'm a worker, even if no one is paying me.
WS doesn't make their own, they buy it, somebody packages it, where and how long it sits in the WS warehouse is unknown. While it looks real convenient to buy a cereal size box of WS hydrocal, I'm afraid to try it and not because of the SDS
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
iawesternWhat other substitute would work?
I use US Gypsum 20-minute casting plaster almost exclusively for scenery work. Hydrocal as a brand name isn't at all important for building scenery.
Rob Spangler
LastspikemikeAlways read the MSDS (SDS in the US.)
If you are refering to MSDS (Materials Safety Date Sheet), in the US we refer to them as MSDS, unless something changed since the last time I completed my OSHA 8 hr Hazwoper refresher.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SeeYou190 I found that we can buy this plaster product down here in Florida at Home Depot and at Lowes. It is called finishing plaster. Is this anything like hydrocal? Has anyone used this? It is reasonably priced and easy to obtain. -Kevin
I found that we can buy this plaster product down here in Florida at Home Depot and at Lowes. It is called finishing plaster.
Is this anything like hydrocal? Has anyone used this?
It is reasonably priced and easy to obtain.
Hi Kevin
USG make Superior plaster products that I have been using in construction most of my lifetime.
I use a lot of them but I must admit I have not used diamond but know what it is for.
It's application is a finishing plaster that's mostly used in commercial buildings where a more durable finish for abusive areas such as stairways.
My understanding is it drys super rock hard and would be a lot harder to shape and carve after it is dry much like DuraBond is.
Perhaps a little more spendy but this USG product could be a modelers better choice. A lot more bang for your buck than WS
$22.99 on eBay free shipping
This USG plaster is only $7 per bag at Home Depot and works great for adding a layer on a shell I have found. It gives you an hour to hour and a half working time before it sets up. A softer plaster, easily cut, carved and shaped. Maybe too soft for some applications
If you want a shell hard as a rock and not water-soluble DuraBond is the way to go. Works great with dryer sheets. Not good for shaping or easily cut after it's dry though
You obviously did not understand my question and do not have the information I need for an answer.
Another thread has been ruined. I hope a moderator locks this one before it gets worse.
I will repost the question at a less hostile time.
LastspikemikeAlways read the MSDS (SDS in the US.) It tells you exactly what's in stuff.
Knowing what is in the product is of little help.
I was asking if anyone has used this, or a similar finsihing plaster, on a model railroad and if it will work similar to hydrocal.
Looking for real experience, not theory.
Don't wash any excess mix down the drain. Let it harden and dispose of the dry material. Don't ask me how I know . Plumbers are expensive.
Joe
SeeYou190 I am going to start my very first hydrocal plaster work shortly. Any special concerns when mixing hydrocal with water? -Kevin
I am going to start my very first hydrocal plaster work shortly.
Any special concerns when mixing hydrocal with water?
Start with water, then slowly add the hydrocal. Sprinkle the powder in while stirring. You need a lot more powder than you think. Or, start with less water.
I use a stainless steel mixing bowl and a big stainless steel spoon that has the same curvature as the bowl so that I can scrape the sides of the bowl as I go.
The solution gets hot as it reacts. Not burning hot. Just kinda warm. Nothing to panic about.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
.
For one of my early layouts I usedcut up paper bags dipped in liquid starch. It would be similar to "glue shell" I think.
It worked well, but plaster had to go over the top.
I think plaster cloth is a better solution.
Riogrande5761,
Thanks for the recommendation. I just looked at this stuff online and it is really cheaper than other brands of plaster cloth. Will purchase some for my next layout...which should be some time, in the near future?
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Glue shell, vaguely rings a bell. This guy didn't have any luck with it.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/94692.aspx
For dipping your towel strips have you thought of using diluted white glue? It is called glueshell and I have seen it mentioned in several scenery books, can't recall which one, but I think a search will find several articles for you. Don't remember if it was a 50/50 mix or a little thicker.
The thing that seemed the most advantagous to me was the ease of cleaning up. White glue will just clean up easily with water, where plaster can make a mess.
It can't be used for river bottoms, but for dipping strips it seems to have worked well. I have not used the method yet, plaster either, as I have a lot of scrap foam to use up.
Good luck,
Richard
EDIT: Just Googled "glueshell" and found quite a number if articles.
Good luck.
SeeYou190Down here in Florida we cannot ever find Homasote or Hydrocal.
OK... I pulled the trigger and bought a 25 pound box of Hydrocal "30" from The Plaster Guys on eBay. I am going to try it for the first time. The box arrived today.
I am building an experimental layout segment, I might as well experiment with Hydrocal.
I will keep you posted.
Use plaster cloth, very cheap if bought in bulk.