ATLANTIC CENTRALAny such undertaking, which I have briefly experimented with, would in my view be a monumental waste of my most valueable resource - time.
.
100% agree. I would much rather spend money than time.
I would also prefer to have ballast and scenery rather than worry about salvaging track later.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
rrinker I will add, I didn;t lay the track to be salvaged, I designed the whole layout to be salvageable - it came apart in easy to handle sections which got stacked in the moving track and then stacked in my new baement. And then promptly forgotten about.
I will add, I didn;t lay the track to be salvaged, I designed the whole layout to be salvageable - it came apart in easy to handle sections which got stacked in the moving track and then stacked in my new baement. And then promptly forgotten about.
I salvaged my whole layout as well, but because I already knew any space I would be getting in the future would require a new layout design, I didn't design the layout to be moved and rebuilt. I have moved plenty of times in the past that it was easy to know any layout would not get moved and re-assembled.
What I did was save major components, such as bench-work grid sections, which could be re-used or modified and re-used on a totally different layout.
Best of intentions, making it portable, but seldom does the new space exactly equal the old space and at least half the fun for me is designing something that will fit my space. Plus because of limited space, the old layout had curves too sharp to run all my equipment - it handled what was expected on the branch line it was a model of just fine, but with a full basement to play with, I can now build a layout with decently wide curves so anything I have will run. --Randy
--Randy
For sure - most sensible outcome.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I will add, I didn;t lay the track to be salvaged, I designed the whole layout to be salvageable - it came apart in easy to handle sections which got stacked in the moving track and then stacked in my new baement. And then promptly forgotten about. I could have put it back together exactly as it was, but had access from all sides, but that would have left a lot of unused space in my basement. After staring at it for 5 years I decided I was not going to attempt to incorporate any of it in the new layout so out it went. Best of intentions, making it portable, but seldom does the new space exactly equal the old space and at least half the fun for me is designing something that will fit my space. Plus because of limited space, the old layout had curves too sharp to run all my equipment - it handled what was expected on the branch line it was a model of just fine, but with a full basement to play with, I can now build a layout with decently wide curves so anything I have will run.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrinker If you have a problem lifting track from caulk, you've used too much caulk. It should pop right off with zero damage to the track. This goes back 2 layouts ago, to my first try at using caulk after nailing every layout prior to that. I removed an entire siding I decided was pretty much useless and turnouts aren't cheap - it popped right off, no broken ties, and I was able to reuse the turnout and the long piece of flex track. There was a short fitter piece that just wasn;t worth trying to use elsewhere. And the turnout that was removed was right on the main line, it was easily replaced by a section of flex and once the foam was painted over, hiding the track placement lines, you'd never know it had been there. The trick is spreading the caulk out VERY thing. A flexible putty knife works, but so do those plastic coated fake credit cards you get in some of those junk mail offers - bonus those are free and instead of trying to clean them you can just throw them out and use a new one next time. The caulk should like like a nearly clear, shiny area before you stick the track into it - that's all it takes, not gobs and blobs. The track WILL stay, until you take a putty knife to the underside and gently lift it off the roadbed. --Randy Not the caulk I use....... But I don't glue/caulk the turnouts. I have never worried with salvaging track, especially after it is ballasted. Sheldon
rrinker If you have a problem lifting track from caulk, you've used too much caulk. It should pop right off with zero damage to the track. This goes back 2 layouts ago, to my first try at using caulk after nailing every layout prior to that. I removed an entire siding I decided was pretty much useless and turnouts aren't cheap - it popped right off, no broken ties, and I was able to reuse the turnout and the long piece of flex track. There was a short fitter piece that just wasn;t worth trying to use elsewhere. And the turnout that was removed was right on the main line, it was easily replaced by a section of flex and once the foam was painted over, hiding the track placement lines, you'd never know it had been there. The trick is spreading the caulk out VERY thing. A flexible putty knife works, but so do those plastic coated fake credit cards you get in some of those junk mail offers - bonus those are free and instead of trying to clean them you can just throw them out and use a new one next time. The caulk should like like a nearly clear, shiny area before you stick the track into it - that's all it takes, not gobs and blobs. The track WILL stay, until you take a putty knife to the underside and gently lift it off the roadbed. --Randy
If you have a problem lifting track from caulk, you've used too much caulk. It should pop right off with zero damage to the track. This goes back 2 layouts ago, to my first try at using caulk after nailing every layout prior to that. I removed an entire siding I decided was pretty much useless and turnouts aren't cheap - it popped right off, no broken ties, and I was able to reuse the turnout and the long piece of flex track. There was a short fitter piece that just wasn;t worth trying to use elsewhere. And the turnout that was removed was right on the main line, it was easily replaced by a section of flex and once the foam was painted over, hiding the track placement lines, you'd never know it had been there.
The trick is spreading the caulk out VERY thing. A flexible putty knife works, but so do those plastic coated fake credit cards you get in some of those junk mail offers - bonus those are free and instead of trying to clean them you can just throw them out and use a new one next time. The caulk should like like a nearly clear, shiny area before you stick the track into it - that's all it takes, not gobs and blobs. The track WILL stay, until you take a putty knife to the underside and gently lift it off the roadbed.
Not the caulk I use.......
But I don't glue/caulk the turnouts.
I have never worried with salvaging track, especially after it is ballasted.
Sheldon
I used the Polyseamseal stuff on the layout where I modified it and removed and reused track during construction. Had no problem removing what I was changing, without ripping the ties off. Last layout I went to get the same stuff but the local Lowes stopped carrying the Polyseamseal brand so I used a different one, worked exactly the same though.
The cork wasn't reusable after I scrapped it off, but the track was fine. Layout was still under track construction so no ballast yet. Once ballasted - I would agree, forget it. I didn't salvage any of the track off my last layout although most of it was unballasted - mainly because I am not planning to use the brand of track in the next one anyway. The juni man that hauled away the sections that sat stacked in my basement for 5 years perhaps salvaged some and made a little money off it. I did save all the electronics, mostly the servos because I plan to keep using those for turnout motors, although I doubt I will use the controllers over - I'm designing my own this time.
I have not worked much with extruded foam so I do not know if it would be workable with what I am about to suggest.
I gave a clinic on trackwork for beginners - on the thought that beginners will want to change their track plan often the more they get experience, and are likely to put track on bare plywood rather than cork roadbed. I showed how track can be held in place reasonably securely with gluedots (the high tack, low profile kind from a craft store) including and perhaps particularly the track with integral plastic roadbed such as Kato and Bachmann sell.
Gluedots are basically small pieces of transfer tape (double sided tape that is as thin as Scotch tape or even thinner) and the dots are about the size of a fingernail. They stick like the very dickens (as does 3M transfer tape which I have been using more and more instead of the thick foamy double sided tape) but can be easily sliced with a thin spatula. Gluedots every 5 or 6 inches with track pressed into the dot with a roller like you use for wallpaper should hold and yet be ready to be pulled up without damage.
There remains the matter of ballast. David Barrow experimented with "minimal" ballast and kept it loose, not secured. He is a quirky guy and I suspect few have followed this lead on that but it is a thought.
Dave Nelson
riogrande5761 SeeYou190 I consider track to be a one-use item. YMMV, but I don't assume track is by necessity one-use: Hundreds of dollars worth of track salvaged - and money saved. Once it is in place, drilled, spiked, painted, wired, ballasted, and glued, it becomes very difficult to ever get it out an reuse it again later. - Kevin Of course it depends on how far you get. The track pictured above was laid on two different layouts (most of it) and is still in very good condition. I do hope to get much further along this time around than the last two, but assuming track cannot be salavged. Well, you know what they say about assumpsions.
SeeYou190 I consider track to be a one-use item.
I consider track to be a one-use item.
YMMV, but I don't assume track is by necessity one-use:
Hundreds of dollars worth of track salvaged - and money saved.
Once it is in place, drilled, spiked, painted, wired, ballasted, and glued, it becomes very difficult to ever get it out an reuse it again later. - Kevin
- Kevin
Of course it depends on how far you get. The track pictured above was laid on two different layouts (most of it) and is still in very good condition.
I do hope to get much further along this time around than the last two, but assuming track cannot be salavged. Well, you know what they say about assumpsions.
I have salvaged unballasted track that was not attached with glue/caulk on layouts that were far from being complete.
I have salvaged turnouts under similar conditions.
I don't attach commercial turnouts with caulk for operational and maintenace reasons.
But to approach the construction of a layout with the idea that it could reach some reasonable level of scenic and operational completeness and then expect to salvage the track, especially track attached with adheasive caulk and ballasted, seems to be to be unreasonable at best.
Any such undertaking, which I have briefly experimented with, would in my view be a monumental waste of my most valueable resource - time.
I have never salvaged track. I consider track to be a one-use item.
Once it is in place, drilled, spiked, painted, wired, ballasted, and glued, it becomes very difficult to ever get it out an reuse it again later.
MidlandMike I have re-read this thread as I am getting ready to put down cork roadbed and HO track on foamboard. While I can understand that foamboard would not hold a track nail, would cork roadbed over foam hold the nail?
I have re-read this thread as I am getting ready to put down cork roadbed and HO track on foamboard. While I can understand that foamboard would not hold a track nail, would cork roadbed over foam hold the nail?
I would say no, cork will not hold nail properly. I actually nail my cork down old school, to plywood. A nail about every 3 inches on straight and ever 2 on curved.
If you are using foam as a base, youll need to use adhesives.
i recently replaced a hand laid turnout and had to remove the existing one. I lay my ties on this brown sheething material from the house that is glued to foam using carpenters glue.
after cutting thru some rails and the brown stuff, I was able to separate it from the foam in one piece, possibly to be used elsewhere.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Use the clear acrylic caulk, dosn't hold quite as good as the white but good enough and is easier to take up. Less is more in this case because you want to salvage. For power make up your own terminal joiners.
I've salvaged track and turnouts from two layouts. After doing that twice, its time to buy fresh.
White glue is much easier to remove than caulk, IMO, which will inevitably stick to the ties. Maybe others have had better luck. A good shpritzing with a water bottle loosens the glue, which you'll have to do anyway if you glued down the ballast on the temporary layout.
I suppose it would be less messy to nail the track to the bed and not ballast at all, or at least not glue down the ballast and vacuum it up.
And I would definitely not solder turnouts if the intent is to remove them. You can always nip off the ends of soldered flex track if you had to.
- Douglas
IDRick...Does the ballast on cork roadbed remove as easily with "wet water" as ballast on foam?
I would guess that it does, but I've needed to lift ballasted track only a couple of times, both of them where the track was directly atop plywood.The first was a pair of turnouts forming a cross-over on a double-tracked curve. It proved to be extraneous, so I removed the turnouts by simply using a soldering iron to re-heat the rail joiners, then using the tip of an old X-Acto blade to push them away from the joint as soon as the solder melted - they were left on the track to which the turnouts were connected. The area was then wetted, softening the ballast and allowing the turnouts to be lifted. The rest of the softened ballast was vacuumed-up, and some new flex track cut to fit into the spaces vacated by the turnouts. The rail joiners were reheated again, and pushed partially onto the new track, allowing trains to run again. I never bothered to take photos of that operation.The other incident, also directly atop plywood, was to move a turnout in order to accommodate a new industrial building. Here's a photo of the general area, with the empty lot for the new factory to the left...
...and the turnout which needed to be re-located...
After removing the nails holding the track and turnout in-place, and moving the rail joiners as described above, the area was sprayed with "wet" water and allowed to sit for a few minutes. The track and turnout was then lifted...
...and the area cleaned-up...
The same turnout was then repositioned, closer to the nearby street and the tracks re-aligned somewhat in order to accommodate that, and everything then soldered back together...
The newly-laid track (and some of the original, too) was then ballasted...
...and a few days later, was back in service...
IDRickHello Wayne, I'm a big fan of your work! But I must confess, if my skills improved 200%, they would then equal 0.5% of your skills... I am a novice when it comes to soldering so I will be practicing before soldering feeders on my layout.
I appreciate your kind words, Rick, but we're all novices when we start out. I was a lousy solderer, too, but also practiced, and got at least to the semi-competent stage. It's still not one of my favourite aspects of the hobby, but I can do enough to get by, and you will get at least to that stage, if not further.
Wayne
Hello Wayne, I'm a big fan of your work! But I must confess, if my skills improved 200%, they would then equal 0.5% of your skills... I am a novice when it comes to soldering so I will be practicing before soldering feeders on my layout. I will also solder joiners for curved flextrack. I do not know how to "desolder" trackwork (besides heating and removing feeders). Probably a good skill to learn now while I'm building a short term layout.
Painting rail and ballasting adds "realism" to the track but at this stage, I will put those tasks further down on my to-do list. Since I'm playing and learning, it probably is a good idea to try it out on some scrap track. Does the ballast on cork roadbed remove as easily with "wet water" as ballast on foam?
There's really no good reason to not solder track, including turnouts, together. If you can solder, you can unsolder, too.I also see no reason to not ballast the track. Ballast, applied using diluted white glue, can be easily softened by an application of "wet" water, and the track then lifted for more complete cleaning, and re-use later.While the suggestion to use caulk is probably appropriate for track on foam, ballast, applied as noted above, will do the job, too.
I used foam on open grid because I like to try new things. I would do it again except for one change. I used spline for some of the mainline and in other areas, I used foam as a sub-roadbed. Next time I will use spline or plywood for the mainline everywhere. The reason being, the track is a little more rock and rolly where foam is the sub-roadbed, this is evident in my videos where the very top heavy camera on a flat car amplify the imperfections.
With spline, you don't need cork roadbed.
Having sidings and yards with slight undulations brings reality to my early 1900s era layout where they didn't worry as much about engineering perfect infrastructure.
While the areas where the subroadbed is foam have not caused any problems at all, a more solid perfectly level mainline is more desirable for a modern era RR.
I also can put my 200lbs on the foam by just putting down a 18" x 30" piece of plywood to kneel on. It leaves no trace I was ever there.
Top heavy camera car amplifies any imperfections.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Sorry, too late to change the substrate. The FB is glued down to the plywood, fascia has been added, and I'm drawing centerlines for trackwork. I did debate FB versus other substrates at the start and finally decided to try FB for the subroadbed.
Thanks guys, very good advice and tips in this thread! Most helpful!
mbinsewi kasskaboose Here's also another vote for ME spikes. Just one little glitch, that has been brought up earlier, the OP is using a 1" foam layer over the bench work. Spikes won't work with foam. Mike.
kasskaboose Here's also another vote for ME spikes.
Just one little glitch, that has been brought up earlier, the OP is using a 1" foam layer over the bench work.
Spikes won't work with foam.
Mike.
Yep, funs over!
Unless it's not to late to change to a different substrate, then ME spikes could be used. Is it too late? Or is it never too late.
kasskabooseHere's also another vote for ME spikes.
My You Tube
Removing traci is far easier when secure with Elmer's glue. You just wet it and it can get removed from the cork. I did that on most of the track from the 1st to the current layout. Some of the track got bent, but I didn't mind since I put it in sidings that can appear far less maintained than the mainline.
Here's also another vote for ME spikes. They are easy to install and nearly invisible. Removing them is easy with a hobby knife or a very thin file gently slipped uner the track.
IDRick Paul and Rio, You both suggested using nails to attach the roadbed and track. How well do the nails hold to Foamboard? I haven't tried it so no prior experience. Installation of roadbed + track would be quick and easy. Also would be easy to adjust/modify track placement... I will do some scenery to practice/learn new tricks. Thanks for the suggestion! ====== Add in. Gave it a try on some foamboard. Track and roadbed move readily when attached with short 1/2 inch brads. Using a thin layer of adhesive in select locations may be enough to hold.
Paul and Rio,
You both suggested using nails to attach the roadbed and track. How well do the nails hold to Foamboard? I haven't tried it so no prior experience. Installation of roadbed + track would be quick and easy. Also would be easy to adjust/modify track placement... I will do some scenery to practice/learn new tricks. Thanks for the suggestion!
====== Add in. Gave it a try on some foamboard. Track and roadbed move readily when attached with short 1/2 inch brads. Using a thin layer of adhesive in select locations may be enough to hold.
I don't use foam board as subroadbed, although I know some do. Of course it's light weight but as you found, it doesn't hold tracknails, ME spikes or small brads. So thats the down side.
I am old school and after building 3 good sized layouts with 1/2 plywood or OSB, I find it works very well and holds nails. Yes, I bend a few when driving them in but not a big deal.
I like nails and ME spikes because they can easily be removed with a pair of needle nose plyers and I've had to pull track up a number of times on my last layout when I had water issues in the basement and had to remove a couple of sections of benchwork. Even if you don't have to do that, you may find you want to revise some track work and again, nails and spikes are easy to remove and put back later.
Also I notice with track nails, you can wiggle the track a tiny bit after they are in which is handy if you need to allign the track a little move even but it's still very secure. I doubt you can do that with adhesive after it's set, but nails you can made minor adjustments. The track isn't truly permanent until you ballast use adhesive to secure the ballast.
Here is a photo of my tear-down beginning - I hand't yet secured the ballast. You can see how cleanly I was able to remove the track and cork. Both were simply fastened down with Atlas track nails. With cork I put a nail in each side about one every 3 inches on straight sections (per the old Atlas how-to book) and every 2 inches on the curves.
It almost seems like a trendy thing these days to use foam, but since you must use adhesives to hold everything together, to me that's a down side. Less flexible. You have to break bonds or wait for it to set-up before doing more, etc.
What if you put your track down with adhesive and you find it's wonky? Yep, you have to peel it up carefully and hope you don't rip rail out of ties or bend it or damage it. If you use track nails or spikes, simply remove with needle-nose plyers and adjust/relay. You can even tweak track slightly if it's nailed down as it can be gently pushed one way or the other but still be secure to the substrate. I really like these benefits.
Before building it is good to weight the pro's and con's to old school plywood/OSB with nails or spikes vs. foam and adhesives.
If you're using foam underneath, then spikes won't hold, even though that's what I'd recommend otherwise. You're pretty much stuck with some sort of adhesive. Beyond taking the specific advice on brands, etc given here, I'd experiment by using the same materials and some spare snaptrack to create some different examples, let them fully dry, then peel up to see what works best with the specific combination of materials you intend to use. I'm pretty leery of the adhesive approach myself, although it seems to worrk fine for some.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
A few thoughts, from someone who has salvaged very little track in nearly 50 years of layout building and unbuilding....
Don't use glue/caulk if you expect to salvage track.
But here is a different idea, build a layout in modules that can be moved, and don't loose any of your efforts.
Even if in two years you only build a few modules, with good palnning there is a good chance they can be incorporated into the next layout.
Personally, I glue track with very strong adhesive caulk, BUT, I do not glue down turnouts....
BUT, I do solder all rail joints, and, it is within my skill set to unsolder them as needed.
I don't use cork or foam, plywood and homasote here. I save a whole module/section, or I save very little from it........
If done properly caulked track should peel up fast and easy like peeling a magnet off the fridge. I also let my turnouts float and will solder feeders to the T/O if a problem pops up.
I solder my joints and for quick and easy dismantling, I just snip the soldered joiners out and chuck'em. The loss in tack length is minimal.
I snip my feeders at the bus and pull them up with the track. A quick touch of the soldering iron will remove them at the new place.
Cork is generally a write-off. Foam goes along even if it is only now in chunks to be used for terrain on the next layout.
Wire is usually easy to pull if you have snipped the feeders off close.
Cost more to move benchwork than to build new stuff.
Having done this twice (once when I retired and once, unplanned, after I retired) I suggest you do not use glue and do not solder turnouts to track. I found that track nailed down was easy to salvage. Soldered flex track was salvaged by cutting off the joint from both sides. Bench work that is screwed together is easy to take apart for the move.
Since you're moving in 2 years, I wouldn't bother with scenery unless you just want to experiment.
Some of the wood in my current (under construction) layout is on at least its 4th layout. So is some of the track.
Good luck
Paul