I use a recyced tall mustard squeeze bottle for the basic application of ballast glue then I follow up by covering the area being worked on with a light overcoat of diluted white glue in a spray bottle. For ground cover I use a 2" brush to brush the diluted white glue on,sprinkle on the ground cover,followed by a light spray of diluted white glue.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hello All,
After discovering this thread I changed my method of ballasting.
Rather than spraying or applying the glue I now spray the wetting agent. The glue is built into the ballast, so to speak.
I recently had to Remove & Replace a turnout and add a modified curved turnout to reroute the mainline.
All I had to do was wet the ballasted sections with an isopropyl alcohol/water mix, wait a few minutes and violá! The track sections released.
I cleaned the track sections to be reused with the same solution that I took them up with.
The "used" ballast was cleaned with the same wetting solution, dried and reused.
The ballast that remained from the uplifted track sections helped align the new track sections.
I re-ballasted the new section, using the same method, and within 24-hours the new track was ready for service.
As long as the ballast/glue mixture does not get into the workings of the turnouts the sprayed alcohol/water mix simply evaporates and will not clog them.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
With alcohol, in particular, you need to work in small sections say 2 to 3 feet at a time so it does not have time to evaporate.
I use eye droppers to apply everything.
Joe Staten Island West
It coming up easily is typically a symptom of the glue not penetrating all the way. There are two things to do - more alcohol, so it's dfefinitely wet, not just slightly damp, and, if like me, your area had hard water, either buy distilled water or use alcohol to dilute the glue. As I mentioned, the common method of a couple of drops of dish soap plus water to dilute the glue has NEVER worked for me, I only ever get the thin crust effect. More soap and it just gets foamy.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Dave:
I use a child's medicine dropper, big than an eye dropper.
Dave
Spray glue was OK on the 1st layout. The problems I encountered were inconsistent coverage and clogging the bottles from glue drying. It seems using a eye dropper is the only viable solution.
Thanks Robert and everyone,
As I said earlier, I'm not a fan of spraying glue but I said that I would ask the question on behalf of the club members who do want to use sprayers. The majority of respondents advise against spraying glue and that is exactly what I'm going to tell them.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I have to go with Dr. Wayne on this. Years ago I thought of a brilliant idea, of using a spray bottle to adhere ballast to the railroad. So I made up a batch of diluted white glue, after spraying the ballast with the water I sprayed the white glue all over the ballast and track. Just as I finished I realized I was going to have to clean off the tracks, and I did not protect the turnouts and the glue mixture mixed into the switches, that's not good. So there I was, all surfaces glued, track and turnouts. The turn outs got stuck and I had a devil of a time removing the glue residue.
I decided than and there never to use a spray bottle on the track, scenery only. I then started using ETOH in the spray bottle then a pippette to apply the glu to the ballast. Much better, and the ETOH doesn"t cause the turnouts to get stuck.
I also will use the Elmer's glue bottle , mix the glue and water, 1 part glue to 4 parts water and dribble the glue mixture on the tracks an ties. You have good control when you do it that way.
When I've just laid some track I will ballast it without glue for a while and allow the ballast to settle in and make adjustments as needed. Once I have added the glue mixture is completed I let everything dry for a day or so, then I use a fine wire brush to remove the excess ballast from the tracks.Then I go over the rails with rail cleaner then add Labelle 101 oil to the rail heads to improve electrical pick up.
Thanks,
Robert Sylvester
Newberry-Columbia Line, SC
dehusman Medina1128 After using the spray bottle, fill a plastic cup with hot water. Remove the pump mechanism and dip it in hot water. Pump the hot water until it comes out clear. That prevents the glue from clogging the pump. Even better way. After spraying glue, thow the bottle away and never spray glue again. Spraying glue gets it on EVERYTHING. Rails, ties, scenery, buildings cars, anything that's within a foot or so of the spray. Spray water. Then add the glue in a more controlled manner, right where you need it.
Medina1128 After using the spray bottle, fill a plastic cup with hot water. Remove the pump mechanism and dip it in hot water. Pump the hot water until it comes out clear. That prevents the glue from clogging the pump.
Even better way.
After spraying glue, thow the bottle away and never spray glue again. Spraying glue gets it on EVERYTHING. Rails, ties, scenery, buildings cars, anything that's within a foot or so of the spray.
Spray water.
Then add the glue in a more controlled manner, right where you need it.
I was talking about gluing large areas, which I think the OP was referring to. I even noted that he'd need to protect things near the area; track, structures, etc. For large areas, other modelers have even done videos on the subject.
Retraction: I reread the OP's original post, and you are correct, he was referring to spraying the glue to ballast. I agree. Spraying glue for ballast is a PITA. I spray the wetting agent, 70% rubbing alcohol, then apply the glue using either a condiment bottle or a medicine dropper.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Medina1128After using the spray bottle, fill a plastic cup with hot water. Remove the pump mechanism and dip it in hot water. Pump the hot water until it comes out clear. That prevents the glue from clogging the pump.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
kasskaboose No success here with spray bottles for diluting glue. The spray mechanism gets hosed from the glue drying out. I might try the spoon since it's much easier than the spray and don't feel bad for wasting. I can also see the value of using the long plastic containers for mustard and ketchup.
No success here with spray bottles for diluting glue. The spray mechanism gets hosed from the glue drying out. I might try the spoon since it's much easier than the spray and don't feel bad for wasting.
I can also see the value of using the long plastic containers for mustard and ketchup.
After using the spray bottle, fill a plastic cup with hot water. Remove the pump mechanism and dip it in hot water. Pump the hot water until it comes out clear. That prevents the glue from clogging the pump.
hornblowerLots of good ideas from all here! I'll add just one more. Most of us know someone that wears contact lenses (it may even be you). Ask them to save you their empty solution bottles for you as these bottles give you the metering accuracy of a pipette with enough capacity to do an entire scenery job without refilling.
Great suggestion!!
Thanks
Excellent tip, Hornblower. Another source of such small mister bottles is the eyeglass cleaning solution bottle that usually comes with a new pair of glasses. I usually use these for weathering, but you can also use them to spray adhesives. The nozzles don't usually adjust on these, but thta's OK for most applications.
In fact, if you're a beginner to spraying adhesive and need something with a limited learning curve, these bottles would work well because of the small size. This would let the rookie to more easily maintain control, get in close and limit overspray.
When you're finished, ALWAYS remember to spray clean water through whatever rig you use to spray adhesives until it runs clear.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Lots of good ideas from all here! I'll add just one more. Most of us know someone that wears contact lenses (it may even be you). Ask them to save you their empty solution bottles for you as these bottles give you the metering accuracy of a pipette with enough capacity to do an entire scenery job without refilling. As throw-away items, they are cheap, too! Some of the smaller travel size or special cleaning solution bottles are just the right size for getting into tight spots. The different solution brand bottles use different designs but they all have some type of tip that easily pops in and out, or on and off, multiple times without causing leaks. As a contact lens wearer myself, I try to bring a few empties to all of the operating sessions I attend in case someone else is doing scenery work on their own layout.
Hornblower
rrinkerI suspect the real reason for the crackign scenery is that it was never 'wetted' first. Without the help of a wetting agent of some sort, spraying or droppering glue on will result in a layer at the top, which hardens, and the rest is not actually glued. The crust soon cracks, especially on something that gets move around.
I'll second Randy's comment. Not enough wetting definitely sounds like the cause of the crusting.
The fact that it quickly evaporates rather than soaking everything with excess moisture, is one reason I prefer the 90%+ alcohol. You can lay it on heavy to ensure thorough wetting without worrying too much about flooding anything.
Plus, it does take a little practice to be able to judge how much to apply if you're just starting with spraying. And you need to be especially cuatious until you're sure you're getting the spray where it should be and not where it shouldn't. But stuff needs stuck, so everntually you learn to use enough and not end up doing the Noah thing in 1:87. If your rivers start flowing, that's a sign you've probably exceeded expectations...
I have only used spray bottles for spraying Matte Medium solution on my lichen scratch built trees, otherwise they dry crispy and become brittle.
I use janitorial, construction type spray bottles from Home Depot. I do not expect them to last spraying trees too long, they just don't.
I have a rectangular Tupperware container filled with hot hot water standing by. After I spray a half a dozen, ten trees or so I unscrew the pump nozzle and submerge it in the hot water and pump it submerged for a while. I suppose I could use it right away again if needed but I usually don't have more than 6-10 trees to do.
After that I put it in another spray bottle with some Dif wallpaper dissolver and pump the solution through so it doesn't become plugged for the next time I use it.
I often have wondered if you could put Dif into your Matte Medium solution in the first place but I have never tried this.
TF
I found that mister spray bottles in the gardening section have the finest mist. I also discovered that you need to spray some hot water from a cup to clean out the glue mixture to prevent clogging. The important thing is to cover any track or structures that are in the area.
I use the translucent condiment bottles like the ones you find at those small diners for finer work. And, they're rather inexpensive at Walmart.
I would not spray glue, dilute or otherwise. There is too much of a chance that it will end up where you don't want it to end up.
Secondly, I have tried pipettes, baby syringes (the plastic ones you get at the drug store to give a baby medicine), plastic straws, etc. and have found that an old white glue bottle with the cap barely open works just fine.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Thanks Randy,
Your "one size does not necessarily fit all" advice is right on.
I suspect the real reason for the crackign scenery is that it was never 'wetted' first. Without the help of a wetting agent of some sort, spraying or droppering glue on will result in a layer at the top, which hardens, and the rest is not actually glued. The crust soon cracks, especially on something that gets move around.
I definitely prefer droppering the glue for ballast - I do it like Cody Grivon shows, after wetting it (I use alcohol - we have hard water in these parts, and adding a couple of drops of soap to it does NOTHING), I apply the glue mix along the OUTSIDE and it will wick up alomst completely to the middle of the track. After both shoulders have glue applies, then I go down the middle to fill in what didn;t quite get there. That also means less glue applied down the center of the track, so less glue dumped over the ties.
Bt for a big field of ground foam 'grass' - I think I will spray the glue, to cover a large area faster. There's room for both ways - in small areas where you want finer control, drop it on with a pipette or the small squeeze bottles. For large areas - spray. Like many things - one size does not necessarily fit all.
Also, on my last layout I tried both glue and matte medium. I noticed no difference in sound or finished appearance with the matte medium - just a lighter wallet. It was one long ballasted stretch of several feet of track,. hald dilute white glue, half with dilute matte medium. I would challenge anyone to tell which is which as a train ran over that section. If I still had that layout section. Something I noticed with diluting white glue with alcohol - it makes it kind of rubbery, instead of turnign it into a hard block when dry. Probably a bit of a chemicla reaction between the white glue and the alocohol. I don;t bother with water, again because of the hard water issues here. Yes, i could go buy jugs of distilled water and use that. But 70% alcohol works great. No issues with the water content, and it won;t strip the paint off everything it comes in contact with accidently.
Wow guys!
Lots of good advice! Thanks for all the answers.
In my limited experience spraying diluted glue isn't the way to go, but one of our members who has been leading the way on the construction of our new layout wants to spray his glue. That's why I asked the first question, and you have given me some great ideas about how to make that work better.
You have also given me some good arguments for why we shouldn't be spraying glue so I can play the devil's advocate. In fact, our portable layout is showing us as we speak just how poor the results with spraying glue can be if you don't get enough glue down. We have ballast and scenery cracking all over the place, and you guessed it, we used spray bottles to apply the glue. Of course, pipettes or the like don't guarantee enough glue either, but I think it is easier to saturate the ballast with that method.
I have ordered a couple of different sizes of pipettes. We got the 10 ml ones and have tried them but the nozzle hole is a bit too big so it is hard to get a gentle flow of glue. I hope to have the 5 ml pipettes soon so we can give them a try. I also like Ed's 'unitary' squeeze bottle idea and the mustard/glue bottles too, so if the 5 ml pipettes don't work those will be our next step. Your suggestions also reminded me of the technique of not applying the glue directly on top of the ballast, but letting it seep in from the side.
Thanks again everyone!
Dollar tree had a sprayer with a colored bottle that had a really fine spray. I had very good results using it and Woodland Scenics Scenic Cement. As has been noted spray bottle do tend to lock up or leak after spraying glue. However at a dollar each....cant beat that.
To preserve spray nozzles from glue I take a pot full of hot water outside and stick the tube of the sprayer in it and pump away. I do the same with my sprayers I use for colour washes, none of them has ever seized. It doesn't really matter if they do as they are just old cleaning product bottles.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
SeeYou190 A few years ago I bought a spray bottle in the garden section of Home Depot with the "Ortho" brand name on it. It has a brass twist nozzle. . Best spray bottle I ever had for spraying diluted glue, but it was difficult to clean after each use. . I lost it about a year ago. . -Kevin .
A few years ago I bought a spray bottle in the garden section of Home Depot with the "Ortho" brand name on it. It has a brass twist nozzle.
.
Best spray bottle I ever had for spraying diluted glue, but it was difficult to clean after each use.
I lost it about a year ago.
-Kevin
I gave up on attempting to clean spray nozzles used to deliver diluted wood and white glues long ago. At least, cleaning by wiping them dry. The trick is to keep a plastic cup of water handy, set aside so it won't be knocked over. When you have done spraying for the day/week/year, you remove the top of the assembly, the spritzer, and insert the uptake tube into the clean water in the cup. Spray until the water is clearly...uh....clear. Close the nozzle by screwing it to snug, reinsert the tube into the glue mix, and lay it all aside.
Wiping the nozzle is ineffective and will result in self-torture the next time you go to use the sprayer.
All that aside, I use a screw nozzle squeeze bottle such as mustard bottles. You can get the nozzle close to the ballast so that the dilution doesn't fall and displace the ballast grains with its momentum.
Tip: place a few, clean, small pebbles into your glue bottles. When you go to use them, shaking to mix will include moving the pebbles, thus improving agitation.
Lots of spary skeptics, but it works for me. I use sparying, really misting, for anything that doesn't need a puny applicator. It's only wasteful or goes in the wrong places if you're not being careful.
First, you can find good quality spary/mist bottles at any place that sells janitor supplies, including many big boxes. The sparyer head should adjust to give you the right spray. Keep looking if you can't find them at first or ask the local janitor, as they are always needing to mix and mist various solutions and will know what and where to get it.
Second, don't use glue, use matte medium. This is somewhat more expensive but gives good, reliable results. Then cut it half and half with water. This sparys or mists easily.
Third, prep the area to be sparyed with a mist of 91% alcohol. Yep, not the 70% most use, because there's too much water in it and it doesn't evap[orate quickly enough for me. You do need to be cautious around things that can be affected by alcohol, so get in close and mist from there instead of hosing down the whole layout. This also works well with the lightweight walnut shell ballast that WS sells, as well as with most foam and other lightweight ground cover materials.
Foruth, tape over the throw bar on turnouts and minimize getting any spray on the points. These are places where the eyedropper method is still good to have in your skill set. Just maneuver around them with the matte mist, then go back and touch them up with the dropper method.
Yes, if you're not careful you can make an epic mess of things. On the other hand, once you've mastered this skill, the amount of scenicking you can do is amazing.
I use old Elmer's glue bottles for both alcohol to saturate the ballast or scenery and for the 50/50 glue and water mix that I home mix to use as scenic cement. Just don't see the need to spray any of this stuff.
Jim
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