As the OP, I was suprised at the number of people who considered it heresy that I did not plan to follow the prototype in every way or their own personal solution as a prefered approach. I suspect there are few layouts here or elsewhere that 100% matches the prototype signaling. Life is full of compromises and our small (compared to prototype) layouts are examples of those compromises.
HOWEVER - to make everyone happier, I have changed my strategy after doing more research on signals, availability of suitable parts to construct my signals and the WOW factor for the resultant cost.
First, I now plan to use single searchlight MAST instead of dwarf signals unless a dwarf is suitable for a siding. In several places, a signal bridge (with searchlights) will be used.
Second, I plan to use a MAST from Shapeway since no suitable (affordable) mast exists for N scale like I want.
Third, I plan to use a pre-wired RGY LED. This will give me RGY single searchlight indications for you protypical advocates out there.
Fourth, I have studied my layout and worked hard for suitable signal placement and I discovered that I do not need signals at every mainline turnout. I did this for myself (not you) so I could save a few $$$$ but this should make a few people happier.
Fifth, I am in the process of installing LCC to manage my blocks and signals as well as various animation stuff such as lighted buildings.
This is not cheap so I will do it in steps.
Show me some SMILES out there!
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
7j43k Ground signals are only used in "terminals". NOT out on the road.
Ground signals are only used in "terminals". NOT out on the road.
Just to call this out a bit, but that's not true.
Dwarf/ground signals provide slower-speed indications and are often found as the signal on a siding or other minor track to re-enter the main track. That siding could be 100 miles from anything in the middle of the wilderness with no other special complications going on. Not just terminals.
7j43kSo there is no "in lieu of", because you "can't". There's a place for mast mount. There's a place for ground mount. They DON'T interchange.
Also partly not true.
Certain signal indications can be displayed on a mast signal only, and not on a dwarf signal, as mentioned above the dwarf signal indications in most signal rule systems are reduced-speed indications. However any indication that is possible to be displayed on a dwarf signal can be displayed on a full mast signal, but often requires an extra signal head on the mast and the mast hardware is more expensive than a dwarf.
Generally dwarves will be used on sidings and other minor tracks where trains will enter the interlocking at slow speed. If the track arrangement is otherwise identical but it's two main tracks merging into one, then both main tracks will have mast signals and you usually wouldn't use a dwarf signal on a main track.
However, signal rules and practices differ a bit between railroads, so YMMV and in some situations railroads will go ahead and use bridges and mast signals on side tracks anyways.
7j43k If you want to contradict reality, go fer it.
If you want to contradict reality, go fer it.
How the real railroad does it, and what works for your own layout may or may not be the same thing. Using dwarf signals as switch position indicators or other "simplified" signal systems are pretty common. Just make sure you are able to provide a good explanation or even a "cheat sheet" to any visiting operators if they need to read any information out of your indications, since they won't be able to draw on outside experience. (If you only run alone, well then there's no problem is there?)
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
As the OP, I need to make note of several things. I do not have any traditional control panels mounted on my facia. My "control panel" is a JMRI panel that I view on a iPad that I use as a walk around control panel. My layout is N scale Kato Unitrack and is is very difficult to see turnout position from more than a few feet away. I have zero interest in trying to use prototypical signal aspects and placement. Speed is a typical component in a protototypical signal indication but I don't need that feature. All I want to know is how the turnouts are aligned ahead of me and if a block is occupied. I am a solo operator so I seldom have more than one train running although I sometime may have a train running laps on the mainline while I am switching off the main.
I can meet MY needs with a 3 color mast head
Green over dark = block ahead is clear/turnout straight through
Green/yellow= block ahead is clear/diverging turnout
Red = Stop (any reason, block not clear, turnout wrong)
That gives me all I need in 3 aspects and I can do that with a simple 3 LED head.
My objective here was to establish a design standard for MY layout using a signal plan that met MY needs. For the near term, I can put all my signals on my JMRI panel with zero physical signals on the layout. However, I want some on my layout for animation if nothing else. I also have a bunch of lighted building that I need to control via some solution other than a bunch of hand switches. To me, an answer to this is the emerging LCC approach and that is where I am headed. I do not plan to put it in place in one step (too $$$$$) but I do want to move in that direction.
I can put 100% of my signals on my JMRI panel for free and then add the physical side incrementally as I see fit.
zstripePrototypical or not....that is what I use and it works for Me.
Agree -- and it works for a lot of folks. I was just contrasting that with what the OP wants and noting the difference in complexity (which he may not have fully appreciated from your post).
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaIt's easy to signal switchpoint position, and that can give a nice model signal solution (non-prototypical).
Prototypical or not....that is what I use and it works for Me. I can jump on any of the mains with a switch engine with cars, while the two mains are running by themselves and keep track of the time I need to get into the industrial sidings, which is how it was set up for three operators. Set the mains back to green and switch out the industries. No industry is spotted from the main. You have to completely get off the mains to do any switching. I have a three cab set up(45 blocks) with 3 MRC 20's. Would be a lot easier with DCC, but unfortunately, that was not out yet either when layout was built. Works fine for Me, all these yrs. It was built in removable sections, half of which have already been moved to My Grandsons basement. I will be 77 this yr., getting hard to get around, so I made the decision a couple yrs. ago to move it so I could still help with getting it back together for them.
Take Care!
Frank
richhotrainSanta Fe did use searchlight signals in the 1970s along its mainline, so the OP is correct in that regard.
And semaphores: Lee, TX, 1974
I linked this photo not to be a jerk, but to note that prototype signaling is complex and varied, even for one railroad. When someone says “I want prototypical signals”, they often don’t take into account (or don’t know) about all the variations.
The route (pun intended) I often recommend to clients is to instead think about what combination of cosmetic and non-prototypical-function signaling (like indicating switchpoint position) can look good and still not be too onerous to install and maintain.
To me, that’s a better place to start and build on rather than taking an overly ambitious (and non-prototypical) goal and trying to shoehorn it into the confines of a modest layout.
[Not to mention less expensive. Many modelers don’t realize the detection and logic implications of detecting many small blocks, but it’s a huge step in cost and complexity.]
zstripeI basically do the same thing.
You have detection of equipment in the blocks, as the OP desires? What logic are you using for detection?
It's easy to signal switchpoint position, and that can give a nice model signal solution (non-prototypical).
But that's not what the OP describes.
richhotrainhe wants to closely simulate the Santa Fe signal protocol used in the 1970s
If so, it appears he's already off by choosing to place signals at every minor turnout connecting to the mainline.
And which ATSF signal protocol? CTC? Block signals? Interlocking?
ROBERT PETRICK I would have chimed in on this thread earlier, but everyone kept calling the limited commercially available N scale signals 'crappy'. Well, not every one, but all it did was make me feel depressed about my situation. I've been modeling N for a pretty long while, and I am well aware of the limitations. I bought NJI two-head signal masts, about 40 or so. It was a conscious and considered decision. While I would not call them crappy, I will admit they are a little less than (what my doctor would call) optimum. But they function, and they are fairly well made. Not exactly cheap, but about $20 less than the Tomars, which I could not find anyhow.
I would have chimed in on this thread earlier, but everyone kept calling the limited commercially available N scale signals 'crappy'. Well, not every one, but all it did was make me feel depressed about my situation.
I've been modeling N for a pretty long while, and I am well aware of the limitations. I bought NJI two-head signal masts, about 40 or so. It was a conscious and considered decision. While I would not call them crappy, I will admit they are a little less than (what my doctor would call) optimum. But they function, and they are fairly well made. Not exactly cheap, but about $20 less than the Tomars, which I could not find anyhow.
Regarding the Tomar Industries signals, they are brass, a soft metal, and they are good looking and durable. They can be purchased directly from Tomar Industries, and the OP does agree that the Tomar searchlight signal is what he is looking for except for the price.
Rich
Alton Junction
PED I model the Santa Fe in late 70's and from what I can tell, Santa Fe prefered simple signals during that period such as a single or double light.
I model the Santa Fe in late 70's and from what I can tell, Santa Fe prefered simple signals during that period such as a single or double light.
Santa Fe did use searchlight signals in the 1970s along its mainline, so the OP is correct in that regard.
What remains to be decided is the number of signals used at turnouts, crossovers and double crossovers. The layout will have 11 turnouts, 1 crossover and 7 double crossovers. What we need is someone with knowledge of the Santa Fe signal protocol in the 1970s to chime in and indicate the number of signals that would be used by the Santa Fe in such a situation.
Paul,
I basically do the same thing. All the signals on the double track mainline are at the crossovers and sidings, but are also on the control panels. I use the two color like in the photo. You just have to glance at the control panels and see if you have all green signals for continuous running on both mainlines......running East/West. I use dual coil relays for that, along with powering the frogs, with normally open push buttons at the control panels, with walk around tethered hand helds. I'm a DC user and at the time the relays were 7.50 apiece.......6.50 by the case. I needed 45. Tortoises were not even out yet! But don't care......no problems at all with the relays, since the mid 80's.
Good Luck on Your project!
I considered rolling my own, and I Iooked at kits and components (some of which are mentioned in this thread), but the time spent fabricating and assembling 40 or so weighed heavily against it. My hands are as steady and my eyes are as sharp (nearsighted) as anyone, but I doubt my results would be much better than the 'crappy' ones I bought, and there's a good chance they'd not even be as good. Others might fare better.
Only my opinion, of course.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
You can do whatever you want, of course, but you seemed to be worried about the expense. A sea of signals where they wouldn’t be typically used in real life wouldn’t look realistic to me – but it’s not my layout.
PEDWhy not?
Because the real railroad wouldn't? Because it's expensive? Because there are cheaper ways to report a turnout’s position on the fascia?
PEDGreen means next block is unoccupied, yellow shows turnout position and red means STOP (turnout wrong or next block occupied)
How are you planning on handling the logic and detection required? Detection is expensive for all the small blocks you will have (by having so many signals). That's more hardware for each block besides the signals. Plus resistance wheelsets.
That signal logic is non-standard, so I think you’d need to add programming to off-the-shelf JMRI to achieve that. (But I’m no JMRI expert.)
The real-life railroad signals just what is necessary where it is necessary. We can learn from that.
Good luck.
Why not? I want red and green for the ususal reasons and I want yellow to signal turnout position. Not trying to replicate 1:1 signal aspects. I am a solo operator and I want something that is useful to ME. Real simply signals. With 3 lights, Green means next block is unoccupied, yellow shows turnout position and red means STOP (turnout wrong or next block occupied). Only 1 or 2 lights lit at a time.
PEDI want to put a signal at each leg of every turnout that touches the mainline.
Why?
I want to put a signal at each leg of every turnout that touches the mainline. My mainline touches 11 single turnouts (3 signals ea), 1 single crossover (4 signals ea) and 7 double crossovers (4 signals ea). That means I need 65 signal mast. YIKES….I forgot to change my thinking on number of signal heads when I changed from dual searchlight heads over to the single head (three lights). That means I do not need “over 100”. Thanks for raising a flag. I was in the process of shopping for mast and you just saved me a lot of money. This helps me a lot in locating the signals I need. I wanted to order all I needed (plus a few spares) at one time from a single source to make sure they were all made alike. I found the same mast on eBay from several sellers (including the same seller as on Amazon) for a few dollars less. I also looked at AliExpress and they had the exact same item plus they offered a 10% discount but they did not have enough in stock to invoke the discount level. Problem I found was that none had enough to match my (original) needs. Now with a lower number, I might have more luck.
I also discovered that the Amazon signal light is 150 scale (Japan stuff)…not 160 for N scale. That makes it a tiny bit taller and larger than preferred but is workable. I did find another very similar light at the right 160 scale but I need to investigate it further.
I am still studing control options. Right now I anticipate using LCC with RR-CirKits components but I have a guy trying to convince me to use Arduinos as an alternatate. Trying to look at cost and effort required for both approaches and see what works best for me. A player here is that I have a bunch of lighted building I have not hooked up yet and I want to include them in the same solution.
Cost....not the cheapest hobby in the world. I know people with $50K bass boats plus a ton in accessories. That would buy a lot of RR stuff and fish at the market.
PED I will need over 100.
How large is your layout? How are you using these: CTC, ABS, something else?
That seems like a lot of signals.
PED Rich, I am aware of Tomar. They do offer a few N scale items but their pricing is out of my reach when you consider that I would like to do at least 50 signals.
Rich,
I am aware of Tomar. They do offer a few N scale items but their pricing is out of my reach when you consider that I would like to do at least 50 signals.
PED Rich….Tomar N-873 ….It is correct and I missed that one but at $49.35 each it is a non-player. I will need over 100.
Rich….Tomar N-873 ….It is correct and I missed that one but at $49.35 each it is a non-player. I will need over 100.
Trevor….your home made version is where I was headed.
Frank…..Thanks! The Amazon one is technically not a searchlight but the price is right with $17.99 for 3. That comes out to $6 per mast which is a very good price. The 2 light version is the correct one but I would want the 3-light version because the LED's are not multicolor and I want the yellow light.
For comparison, my planned home-made version was going to cost me around $10-12 each by using heads (2 ea) from Shapeway, RR-CirKits RGY LED (2 ea), K&S brass mast and some kind of ladder that I have not found yet. Then I would need to put it all together and fight the battle to solder stuff to #36 gage wire on the LED’s. Multiply that times more than 100 masts and that is a tall order for a short fat old man. Everything we do is a compromise. The Amazon mast is would be OK for the mast that ATSF used to replace the old stoplight version but that would be slightly later timeframe than my layout. It is not a perfect match for what I wanted but at that price, I think I can make some compromises. Looks like the ATSF moved their mast change out program back a few years on my layout.
Those are search light.......just a different type. As a matter of fact...most mainline signals are of a search light signal......they need to be seen from far away......not only when you get right on them......then it's too late!
And even if they are not exactly what He is looking for......they still look like a good buy and it would be his call if He wanted them....no matter what anyone else may think. At least He has some more options to view and are ready made.....beats scratch building them in N-scale.
I use the same type on My layout......mine are all brass:
The OP is looking for a double searchlight. Tomar Industries makes both an HO scale version and an N scale version. In the photograph that follows, the HO scale version is on the left, and the N scale version is on the right.
I found these on Amazon. Seems like a good price.....if interested:
https://www.amazon.com/JTD1503GR-Railroad-Signals-2-Lights-Green-Red/dp/B07DW95XPN/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1545986572&sr=8-4-fkmr2&keywords=Working+N-scale+LED+SIGNALS
PED Technically, Tomar does not offer a N scale signal mast for what I want. I model the ATSF in late 70's. A typical signal mast for ATSF in that time frame would be a double head search light. Tomar offers an HO version (#H-859) with a 3 color LED (which I want) but no N scale version.
Technically, Tomar does not offer a N scale signal mast for what I want. I model the ATSF in late 70's. A typical signal mast for ATSF in that time frame would be a double head search light. Tomar offers an HO version (#H-859) with a 3 color LED (which I want) but no N scale version.
It might have been a temporary block but here is my site
http://xdford.freeasphost.net/stag13.html which I hope will appear OK for you!
If it is of use to you, you can add details as Mel does with your own ( not copied ones preferably) castings! Good Luck with your project!
Cheers from Australia
Trevor
richhotrain PED Rich, I am aware of Tomar. They do offer a few N scale items but their pricing is out of my reach when you consider that I would like to do at least 50 signals. Even if I used just a few and did something else for the rest, those few would highlight how crappy the rest look. Paul, which Tomar Industries N scale signals would be appropriate on your layout? Just curious. Rich
PED Rich, I am aware of Tomar. They do offer a few N scale items but their pricing is out of my reach when you consider that I would like to do at least 50 signals. Even if I used just a few and did something else for the rest, those few would highlight how crappy the rest look.
I am aware of Tomar. They do offer a few N scale items but their pricing is out of my reach when you consider that I would like to do at least 50 signals. Even if I used just a few and did something else for the rest, those few would highlight how crappy the rest look.
Paul, which Tomar Industries N scale signals would be appropriate on your layout? Just curious.
However, I may have found a solution. Shapeways has N scale search light heads that should work but I would have to mount two of them on a pole plus add a ladder of some type. I think I can use the 3 color LED (round 3mm circuit board) made by RR-CirKits. Still researching this solution. Will probably order a few parts and see what I can cobble up. Working on something this tiny needs a steady hand and I don't have one so that will be a factor.
Send me a PM and I will try to find the drawing of my home made signal masts in HO that you might be able to scale down to your N scale. I would direct you to my site to show you but again it seems to be down and I am gradually migrating my site to Google sites. You can see the first two pages here https://sites.google.com/view/stagnesrailway but the signals I built are not apparent.
Essentially I use a brass tube with one wire through the centre for the Bi Directional LED and use the tube as a return. I can send you a pic if you include your email addy,
7j43kI'm sorry to hear that N scale signals are so sucky.
I think these look pretty good even without the martini.
http://www.customsignalsystems.com/nscalesignals.htm
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
7j43kTraincat has been unavailable for a very long time. Too bad, both for the cat, and for us customers.
Too bad, he also had some excellent brass bridges,
Mike.
My You Tube