To begin with I am not a computer geek who has ever learned how to manipulate computer track plan softwares. And to tell the truth I never thought it was an idea worthy of extensive study to learn just to singularly design my new layout. I really thought (hoped) that someone would come along and do that computer designing/visualizing for me,....someone who enjoyed doing that sort of thing.
Long story short I had to resort to scale drawings / sketches. These can be a little tricky to get 'exactly' to scale, particularly with the variety of turnout brands, and subtle variations in their exact profiles.
Paper templates of the turnouts was suggested (these were full size). I also had a good number of the actual turnouts themselves, and some fixed pieces of Atlas sectional track I could use to double check that I was getting a good close fit, and the proper angles.
I had a 4x8 sheet of plywood set up as a work table out in my carport. I thought why not lay some drawing paper out on the sheet of plywood and draw up some of the various areas of my trackplan. A contractor friend had an old roll of brown paper that is used to protect new flooring etc during building construction. And it happened to be 4 foot wide.
I now lay 4x8 foot pieces of that paper out on my BIG drawing table, and do an exact full size plans of my trackplan for various areas and corners of my layout. I plan on using these patterns to lay down the track on my double decks of the actual layout. Additionally I can simply roll these paper plans up and put them inside during windy or inclement weather,
I am actually having FUN creating these full size plans, and I am learning somethings about planning concentric curves, fitting in structures, tight tolerances etc, etc.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Initial Creations
For reference,..overall trackplan first..
The ones that follow were created up on that table, but subsequently laid out on the carport concrete so they could be joined together
Retreat to Indoors
We then had some rather windy and cold days, so I cleared off a temp shelf (again 4x8 piece of plywood) I had put up in the train shed. Then proceeded to lay out my staging tracks,...at least the ladder entrance end (bottom end coming up soon).
This looks like a great idea if it helps you do the job.
Downside is that it's kinda big and clumsy. And mating each switch in "exact" alignment could be a problem--solved, I think, with the use of straightedges and maybe protractors.
A BIG upside is the visualizing part. Will it REALLY fit? And will it look the way I think it will? And, come to think of it, the testing part, where, for example, you can really see if a loco consist will fit on the track you think it will. And check various clearances, too.
Looks great!
Ed
railandsail Retreat to Indoors We then had some rather windy and cold days, so I cleared off a temp shelf (again 4x8 piece of plywood) I had put up in the train shed. Then proceeded to lay out my staging tracks,...at least the ladder entrance end (bottom end coming up soon).
My only concern is how close the track on the left are to the edge. Are you planning on putting a Lexan or plexiglass barrier on the edge?
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Some sort of edge barrier is likely. I already have some plexi.
Medina1128My only concern is how close the track on the left are to the edge....
If I didn't have track "close to the edge", there wouldn't be many places to run trains...
In the photo above, the caboose is about 5' above the floor, but any risk will be halved when I get around to adding some landforms (mostly higher than the track) in the centre of this loop.
In the photos below, it's only 3' to the floor....
...and about 40" here...
...almost 5' here...
...and a little bit higher here...
Brian, if you're enjoying using templates and testing layout component variations, then that's a good system for you to use.I built my layout without a plan, and basically imagining what would work and look reasonably good. For the most part, I am very satisfied with the results.
As for close-to-the-edge mishaps, only one, and it was operator error...a track, no where near the operator, powered, but shouldn't have been.
Obviously, no mystery as to who the operator was.
Wayne
Somehow I'm not sure that's what Yes meant when they wrote "close to the edge, down by the corner" but I'll take it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Brian,
Don't cheat when puting the pieces together. It is very easy to twist a piece of paper a bit to make everything fit the way you want it. Also, are you confortable that the paper image really matches the real track? Testing some real track as an overlay can verify. Also, make sure the paper track matches the brand turnouts you plan to use.
I offer these comments because I got bit many years ago trying to do a similar paper layout and discovered the paper was "close" but not to the same tolerances as a real turnout.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
Yes Paul I am using almost exclusively Peco turnouts, and I have made the printouts of those templates right off of their site that gives you a scale ruler on the printout sheet of paper that allows you to confirm that your printed template is an exact replica of the actual turnout. Plus I have measured this up against the actual turnouts themselves.
So I feel very confidant that my full size drawings are exact relicas of the track I will be laying over them. The trick is going to be how to get the paper pattern out from under the track after all things have been located.
My boxer dog will rip it out for free. He likes to rip up paper.
railandsailThe trick is going to be how to get the paper pattern out from under the track after all things have been located.
I have seen examples where people have used the type of pinwheels that are used for marking fabric or leather to mark the track centerlines, something like this:
https://ca.images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrC3HyrFR9ceiQA.CAXFwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=pinwheel+tool&fr=yhs-rogers-rogers_001&hspart=rogers&hsimp=yhs-rogers_001#id=0&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chelseadeals.co.uk%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fpm-4976%2Fimage01.jpg&action=click
You would need a clean surface on the benchwork so that you could see the pin pricks. One option might be to use a plain wallpaper with as little pattern as possible or no pattern at all. Home Depot in Canada offers a product from Wall Doctor that is completely smooth. It is designed for repairing walls with rough surfaces.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.lining-paper-paintable-white-wallpaper.1000763009.html
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
railandsail The trick is going to be how to get the paper pattern out from under the track after all things have been located.
The trick is going to be how to get the paper pattern out from under the track after all things have been located.
Why do you think you should remove the pattern? I see no reason, except to exercise your boxer. Or chihuahua.
A one-to-one full size paper plan works great. That's what I did on Railroad board taped together. Two years in the planning because of elevation issues. I just didn't have the patience to unravel it all tonight. But I dug it out and unfolded it one fold. It's a cookie cutter cut out now. That's how I used it last and have kept it for reference. You're on the right track with this plan because you know exactly where your tracks go. Maybe I could un-ravel this thing for you when I'm not so tired
You're on the right track.
Respectfully TF
7j43k railandsail The trick is going to be how to get the paper pattern out from under the track after all things have been located. Why do you think you should remove the pattern? I see no reason.... Ed
Why do you think you should remove the pattern? I see no reason....
Anyone want to chime in as to why I should just forget removing the paper pattern?I had thought that it might interfere with other adhesive efforts around the track,...such as ballasting or other scenic materials....
Using full size turnouts on 4x8 sheets of paper seems a bit unmanageable to me.
I use quadrille paper to design my layouts, and it works just fine. Each sheet is 11" x 17" and consists of 1/4" squares. For my purposes, each 1/4" square represents a 2" x 2" square in HO scale.
Since I already have turnouts on hand, I know the exact dimensions and angles of the turnouts and the exact space required for cross overs. Same for wyes, 3-ways, curved turnouts, etc. I simply use Scotch brand tape to tape multiple quadrille sheets together for larger layout designs. As expected the actual layout closely matches the quadrille paper design.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Using full size turnouts on 4x8 sheets of paper seems a bit unmanageable to me. I use quadrille paper to design my layouts, and it works just fine. Each sheet is 11" x 17" and consists of 1/4" squares. I simply use Scotch brand tape to tape multiple quadrille sheets together for larger layout designs. As expected the actual layout closely matches the quadrille paper design. Rich
I use quadrille paper to design my layouts, and it works just fine. Each sheet is 11" x 17" and consists of 1/4" squares.
I simply use Scotch brand tape to tape multiple quadrille sheets together for larger layout designs. As expected the actual layout closely matches the quadrille paper design.
I did consider using smaller size paper sheets. In fact I had some nice white 2'x3' size sheets (probably utilized in architecture dwgs).But then I thought about their fragile nature when taped together in a larger size, and figured I might as well go with the bigger sheets that could be just rolled up into a 4' long tube of about 6" diameter.
What ever works for you Brian. I don't see how it would be a problem to slip the paper templates out from under the track, as you go. The final ajustments you will make as you go along with the track laying process, regardless of the paper templates. I kind of think this whole process your going through, and all the threads you have started, is a bit over the top, to me. It sorta seams like what a member in here called "paralyse analyse".
I built mine the Dr. Wayne method. I knew the space I had, and I did a "almost to scale" sketch, and started laying track. Yea, and I have plenty of track "on the edge", with no problems.
Like I said, what ever works.
Mike.
My You Tube
I find all of this tedious pre planning, then planning, then planning again, stuff very interesting.
Since I have a small space to work with, I build my benchwork to the smallest ailse space tolerance that I can stand, then design a plan from there. I find it easier to design a plan to fit the benchwork than it is to build benchwork to fit a plan.
I look at it as designing the aisle space first, then the rest of the space gets filled in with benchwork.
I make a general sketch on paper, then lay the track on the table top as I go and change it to how I like it or how it will fit if I have to, keeping sight of my givens and druthers.
- Douglas
railandsail Anyone want to chime in as to why I should just forget removing the paper pattern?I had thought that it might interfere with other adhesive efforts around the track,...such as ballasting or other scenic materials....
I'll re-chime.
I'm assuming that you would use your templates to position cork roadbed--that you would tack down the cork right on top of the templates. And lay the track on that.
That would leave the paper "trapped" under the cork. If you slice of the paper with a razor blade, or just tear it, most of it will be gone. The part under the cork will likely get glued up by your ballast glue, and become a permanent track element. But I don't see a reason to make a huge effort to remove it.
Leaving ALL the paper there might cause a problem with scenery goop, as it has a lot less glue in it than ballast goop.
Paper Trapped Under Cork
There are quite a number of places where I will not have cork under the track, at least that is the way I am considering it now.
No cork under freight yard, steel scene, peininsula, and of staging yard ladder and stowage tracks. Cork only under the main lines. At least thats the way I see it at the moment.
Compliment on another forum
Great Post I am actually having FUN creating these full size plans, and I am learning somethings about planning concentric curves, fitting in structures, tight tolerances etc, etc. Brian What a delightful post Brian! I've been exploiting that fun factor to turn my students on to geometry and algebra. You've demonstrated that the experience is nearly universal! I've found that the full size paper planning extends to over-the-road planning very nicely when using masonite splines to effortlessly lay out long cubic spiral transitions without the fuss and bother of doing any symbolic manipulations - direct, hands-on math that literally feels good and is viscerally productive. Jeff Allen
I am actually having FUN creating these full size plans, and I am learning somethings about planning concentric curves, fitting in structures, tight tolerances etc, etc. Brian
What a delightful post Brian! I've been exploiting that fun factor to turn my students on to geometry and algebra. You've demonstrated that the experience is nearly universal!
I've found that the full size paper planning extends to over-the-road planning very nicely when using masonite splines to effortlessly lay out long cubic spiral transitions without the fuss and bother of doing any symbolic manipulations - direct, hands-on math that literally feels good and is viscerally productive.
Jeff Allen
Hey Brian!
railandsailCompliment on another forum
That's really neat. You are helping to inspire young people to learn. Congratulations.
Waterfront, Brick Factory, Cement Silo
This mockup works on the lower right hand corner of the train shed (just to the right of the entrance way). My waterfront scene had already been chosen to be located here, and is designated by the big irregular shaped black marker pen lines on the right of this photo (and there is a small size print out of the scene taped in the middle of that blob)
To the left of that scene there is the brick factory with 2 tracks down either side, then the 4 kilns with their smoke stacks. The footprint for the factory is that of the Walther's Water Street Freight Terminal.
Viewed from the opposite end, you will see that I have managed to put a 'Medusa Cement' structure on its own siding in the very corner of the shed.
The two heavy black lines are the twin mainlines making the curve thru the corner of the main deck. They are 29" and 30" radius curves.
More difficult to see are the penciled in lines that define the tracks of the staging level that is just below this main deck. I have actually mapped out both the main deck tracks & the staging level tracks in this corner of the shed, .....all on one piece of paper. I will make additional tracings of these mainlines & staging tracks that will translate over to the other corner (left hand side) of the shed. BTW, only the 'outer 3 of the staging tracks will be rigged to cross the bridge across the entrance way. The other 3 staging tracks end on either side of the layout.
What I found interesting when I was drawing these curves is I did not have to use the same common point of radius generation, and thus was able to utilize a few larger radius curves than originally contemplated, yet still have generous clearance between the tracks of the curves. No radius in this area is less than xxx inches.
The track on the very left of this photo feeds a long siding that eventually curves around into the peninsula, ...(and of course it feeds Madusa cement). The next two tracks in are the mainlines which will then start to rise towards the end of the shed to clear that siding track that ducks back under the mainlines to go into the peninsula area.
The Y switch over on the right might be changed to something else. Right now it serves to provide a coal car for the loading/unloading of the coal barge in the harbor. Its other leg goes down the one side of the brick factory, and will likely be sort of 'road flush' so trucks can drive over it.
The brick factory came along after the waterfront community had been in existence for awhile, and they bought up that big empty field to put their factory up. But both of these aged communities existed in somewhat the same time period.
Probably going to need a few more silos for raw materials to make those bricks, and some stacks of bricks outdoors? Suggestions anyone??
For reference,...overview trackplan of maindeck
As a spin off from the pin wheel comment earlier, you could use the pinwheel to mark a location then pull up the paper before laying cork.
In an older layout I built, I drew up my track centerline (pencil on plywood) then used that line as my guide to lay down the cork (split on centerline). In your case, you could use the pin wheel to mark your centerline onto your base material then pull up the paper then lay your cork according to the pattern created by the pin wheel.
Brian said he isn't using cork in a lot of places, only the main line.
So there isn't much need to draw a center line, IMO, unless he wants to also mark a center line on the top of the track to ensure both lines align within the few millimeters he appears to be concerned about.
I could be wrong, but I always thought centerlines were for strictly aligning two haves of roadbed since they must be split to form a curve. Since the first step would be to lay roadbed, if you're going to use it, the center line puts the roadbed on the spot where the track will eventually go.
Big Paper Plans/Dwgs
Some have voiced concerns with handling BIG paper templates. well yes if you were trying to template the entire layout in one shot. But I am working with sections and spec corners, scenes, etc.
So here are a few shots of some of my full size templates rolled up to get them off of the 4x8 foot 'drawing table' in my carport.
Then just roll it out on the board,...fast and easy...4' wide roll, approx 8' foot long, or shorter if desired.... (my 'table' sits on an old workbench, with casters, I acquired from a garage sale of a remodeling contractor)
Nice work on the paper templates. They seem to continue helping you. Other forms of assistance you might consider are using either the Atlas or other free software tools to make your layout. There is a learning curve, but by following the tutorials, you should be fine.
It looks like you aren't in any hurry to get a layout up and running . But some have more fun in the design and construction process - that appears to be your thing. Me, I've been in situations most of my life where I never got a layout actually up and scenic'd so I don't think Ican be bothered with a full sized mock-up on paper. I was able to mock things up as I built and laid track last time and it seemed to work well and getting the track down took less time. Different strokes for different folks. Some here are probably learning from the extended dog and pony show!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tracing Copies of Tracks
As I mentioned before this full size dwg has BOTH the track plans for the main deck and the staging deck drawn on it ( I didn't feel that I needed two separate 'originals' for this corner).
Now I wish to make the separate copies I'd like to have to actually utilize to lay the track. I decided to use 'tracing paper' to make these copies. The first images shown here are tracings of the 2 mainline curves and the turnout leading off to that siding along the sidewall.
This dwg can then be flipped over to provide a pattern for the same curves that will appear on the opposite corner across the entrance. Over in that corner (down from the freight yard and behind the steel mill), there will be the same 2 mainline curves, with an identical 'siding' along the wall being the track that leads to the helix, and subsequently down to staging. Nice that these 2 sides became mirror images.
As mentioned before I was able to fit the Madusa cement structure into the very corner on the right hand side. I've been wondering what I might fit into that left hand corner? There are a few pencil scribbles on that tracing paper for one idea I might consider,...a diesel engine maintenance building (likely just cut off front half of the structure), and several tracks for parked diesels waiting for service. This corner might also have some mirrors behind it to make this building and the number of locos look more massive.
Prior to my full scale drawings project I likely would not have considered this scene as possible. That's part of the reason I find this exercise so much fun. I actually feel like I am advancing with my overall layout plan, rather than stalled in the scale dwg mode.
Next I will be making tracings of the underlying staging tracks in that corner, and I will be able to flip that dwg over and use it as a track laying pattern for the opposite side staging deck as well.