Foam or plywood...

[streettrains]

I havne't got to the scenery stage yet, but want to get soem advice, is it necessary to use foam board? Can I just use plywood for the landscape and go from there? I am just worried about using the foamboard in case I have to climb up on and crushing something. You know what I mean?

[tstage]

GrandFunkRailroad,

I guess if you think you'll be "climbing" on top of your layout, then maybe you should stick with the plywood. However, if you plan and make your layout "accessible-friendly" (i.e. reaches of 30" or less) then you shouldn't have to.

Foam is a great medium to work in. Whatever you decide to do, keep the width of your tables and shelfs reasonable. If you can't , then consider an access hole of some kind. It doesn't make sense to climb up on your layout just to retrieve a derailed boxcar or clean your track. GFR, I don't know how old you are but how many more years will you want to "scale your layout"?

Just some thoughts...

Tom

[streettrains]

[:D] only 39 here.. guess when I said climb, I made it sound like a long reach, the longest reach might be 3 feet, that is where I will have a train running along the wall and elevated, only worried in case of derailrment.. that's all..


wonder if I should lay off the foam on that stretch of the layout... basically that is where my big yard is going to be....

[Jacktal]

In my mind,foam is a must.It will help deadening the noise somewhat to start with and just as important,it will allow for some expansion of your trackwork .By the way,you can't nail your tracks to foam but good wood glue does very nice for this.

Foam will allow you to create ditches,ponds,etc...very easily while digging your plywood base for landscaping won't.I like to have some ground that I can dig in if I should decide to let's say have a road passing under my trackwork,or create a small river or whatever else.

[jhoff310]

Foam is the way to go. I first used the white styrofoam on a layout about 15 years ago and it was incredible. It was very easy to work with as far as carving lakes, rivers, hills etc.. the sound deadening part wasnt all that great because i was using the old white stuff. Now that I have started my new layout i have gone with blue foam insulation board. so far I have carved a river and working on a few hills.
just my 2 cents
jeff

[Anonymous]

Pink insulation board is the way to go. You can shape it very easily although it is a little messy! I finish off the terra-forming with drywall compound. The combination of the drywall compound and say 2" thick foam board will make for strong scenicking.

Roger

[streettrains]

if I stay with plywood, how would I lets say do a river or a pond...?

[challenger3802]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrandFunkRailroad

if I stay with plywood, how would I lets say do a river or a pond...?

One way is to leave a gap in the baseboard, constructing a open-box baseboard structure underneath (1 - 2 inches below the main baseboard level). The river bed then goes on this lower level, scenically making up the sloping banks as necessary.

Ian

[wesleyl849]

I Inherited a plywood 4X10 layout from a neighbor. He cut the plywood surface at an angle across the 4" direction. He separated the plywood and built a trough to create a river bed. Because of this cut-out of the main plywood; there are structural issues the whole layout. From this experience, I would start with a solid foundation and add the foam board on top. This is what I will do when I start my own.

[Anonymous]

Along these lines, is it necessary to use plywood under the foam board? I noticed in the January 05 MR, the Turtle Creek expansion project calls for 1/2 plywood under the foam layers. I planned to do this, but my layout is an around-the-room 30' by 13'...the plywood alone is going to run around $150.

If I just glue 2" foam to a solidly built 1x3 open grid benchwork, do you think I would run into trouble?

Just a thought....

Mike

--freelanced WWII era steam layout in Minnesota

[rrinker]

I haven't had any problems yet with just the foam, no plywood. It's certainly not going to sag. Some heavy pounding against the bottom might knock it loose from the gridwork, but I don't plan on hammering on the bottom of the layout [:D]

--Randy

[tstage]

Check my pics on the link below. I'm using 1-1/2" Owens-Corning, surrounded by a frame work of 1 x 3's, and held up by 2 x 2's. (The frame protects the edges of the foam from being damaged.) Nice and lightweight and sturdy. You should be able to easily use similar encased foam for your around-the-room layout.

Tom

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the feedback on going plywood-less. That $150 will be well spent somewhere else!

Mike

[Anonymous]

I have been reading about foam being used in layout construction and became courious as to how does one efficiently cut this product for the roadbed grades and what do you use to cover this foam to fini***he scenery? Also-how do you attach the track to it? I am thinking of buildin an N-scale pike and this is the first time I seen so much talk on the subject of using foam. so any and all info will be greatly appreciated. Thank You

[FThunder11]

I have my track on cork road bed on plywood, but I think im gonna add foam around it for scenery and it will be tracks that is lowered into the ground instead of raised, not very realistic, but its my layout

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Check my pics on the link below. I'm using 1-1/2" Owens-Corning, surrounded by a frame work of 1 x 3's, and held up by 2 x 2's. (The frame protects the edges of the foam from being damaged.) Nice and lightweight and sturdy. You should be able to easily use similar encased foam for your around-the-room layout.

Tom

I really like this idea, especially for the upper deck of my layout, it saves a good bit of depth by putting the foam inside the wood rather than on top of it. However, I'm not sure how you would handle making a larger section which would be two or more boxes so constructed butted together. With the foam on top of the wood I can easily drill through the two adjacent wood pieces and bolt the sections together, the foam is glued on top tightly butted to each other. If the foam is surrounded by wood, then I would have a double wood thickness between the foam sections.

--Randy

[tstage]

Randy,

I've pondered over that issue - especially since I would eventually like to add an around-the-room to the 4 x 8' peninsula. Even with a 1 x 3 (essentially 3/4" x 2-1/2"), I still have an inch on the underside of the foam to run a bolt through both sections.

However, the "double wooden thickness" though does leave me scratching my head. Would you think that the transition from foam to wood to foam would be too difficult to dsiguise well, once you began to lay down track and scenery?

I've also mused about possibly "notching" the top of the frames (where the two sections will be attached together) in order to slide a 1/2" thick, 1-1/2" wide "spacer" of EFI to fill in the gap. Since the frame provides more protection to the foam than structural integrity, notching down a 1/2" shouldn't compromise it any. But....there wil still be a portion of that "double wooden thickness" to deal with.

Hmmmm. Definitely somethings and ideas to mull over some more. Randy, thanks for the reality check...[:)]

Tom

P.S. Here's a thought. I could still lay a thin layer of EFI over the top of my "foam frame", which would accompli***wo things. One, it would eliminate the appearance and issues associated with the "double wooden thickness". Two, it would make my "double-layer foam sandwich" still more lightweight than the foam over plywood. The only issue that comes to mind is whether or not it would be more expensive.

[rrinker]

I think the foam/wood transistion ever 8 feet or less would be fairly obvious, no matter what scenery you put on top. An extra layer of foam over the whole thing would work, but that kind of defeats my purpose of making the upper level benchwork as thin as possible (to maximize the seperation between levels). As I coninued to ponder a solution to all this, it occured to me that Bill Darnaby does not use any sort of box frame around his foam, he just has the bracks that it sits on for support, and then a fascia mounted tot he ends of these brackets that hides the edges of the foam. Simple is usually better... and now with a miter saw available, mass producing the brackets is a single evening project. (yeah, all that I built so far - I sawed with a hand saw. Actually, it only took one weekend to build the 4 sections I have so far.)

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I was curious if everybody that is using foam is also using cork roadbed or gluing the track directly to the foam?

Darrin

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigDarrin

I was curious if everybody that is using foam is also using cork roadbed or gluing the track directly to the foam?

Darrin

Either works fine. Adding any roadbed to foam works, as does gluing the track directly to the foam. Many modelers will use roadbed under the mainlines, and add sidings directly to the layout base for added realism.

I've always considered cork roadbed (and roadbed in general) to be a scenic element, and not necessary for the proper operation of a model railroad. Most people who use foam do still use cork to create the ballast profile for track, and it works well. But I make my own roadbed out of 1/2" thick foam, cut into strips like cork and beveled after the track is in. It's cheap and works well.

[tstage]

Darrin,

Yes! You can use Elmer's white or wood (yellow) glue. Liquid Nails for Projects (whatever that call the latex version - make sure it says "LATEX" on the outside) and silicone caulk in a tube are also alternatives that set up quicker than the glue and hold well. It will work on both the cork to foam and the foam to foam adnesion. There is also a product by Woodland Scenics. It's a foam roadbed that comes in a large roll that some guys seem to really like.

Hope that helps...

Tom

[rrinker]

I WAS going to use cork, but tried some of the Woodland Scenics and I really like it, so that's what I ended up using. When it comes to fitting in angles for switches, it works exactly the same as cork, but is a bit easier to cut. When laying large sections, it's far easier than cork because you can get the 24 foot rolls. Fewer joints to hide iin the ballast.

--Randy

[tcf511]

Everytime I firmly make up my mind on how I'm going to do something on my layout (my first) I read a new thread in this forum and change my mind! I really like the idea of being able to carve scenic detail into foam. I know it can be messy cutting but that is why I have a vacuum cleaner. What are the downsides to using 2" foam instead of plywood other than difficulty mounting under the track switch machines?

[rrinker]

Good question - I haven't found any yet, other than the mess when cutting into it, but that's why when I do that sort of thing I have the shop-vac running at the same time. Even using cutters on the Dremel, as long as I have the vac going, it doesn't make much mess at all.

Over all, wood would be stronger - if you lean (well, me anyway) over and support yourself with one hand on the foam, it WILL dent. If you drop somethign heavy on it, it will dent or gouge. You have to be careful about setting down tools on it while working on the layout - things like tape measures with belt clips on one side (don't ask). But even with those potential downsides, the speed and eas of working with it MORE than makes up for the negatives. Not to mention, much cheaper than decent pieces of plywood.

If you are using Tortoises, the way I top mount them is EASY, seems easier to me than screwing one to the bottom of a plywood layout. If you use Peco machines on Peco switches - even easier!

--Randy

[tcf511]

Thanks very much for the info. I'm planning on Peco turnouts with Peco machines. My reach on the layout is never more than 24 inches so hopefully leaning on it won't be an issue. I've built my benchwork using Sievers modular benchwork so it will have plenty of support. I was going to keep it simple for my first layout and just use flat plywood but where I live in Virginia, nothing is flat at all so it wouldn't be very realistic. Do you have any special tips for mounting the Peco switch machines? I'm probably just going to use groundthrows for some turnouts but will definitely use switch machines in the yard area.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tcf511

Everytime I firmly make up my mind on how I'm going to do something on my layout (my first) I read a new thread in this forum and change my mind! I really like the idea of being able to carve scenic detail into foam. I know it can be messy cutting but that is why I have a vacuum cleaner. What are the downsides to using 2" foam instead of plywood other than difficulty mounting under the track switch machines?

Downsides to using foam? Not many:

1) unsupported foam acts like a drum, amplifying noise (1/4" plywood under the foam takes care of the problem)

2) it takes FOREVER for all adhesives (except rubber cement) to completely dry between foam to foam glue joints. We're talking a week for wood glue OR Liquid Nails.

3) you can't dance on top of a foam-based layout.

4) It takes a bit more practice to carve in scenic features like ditches and smooth hill to flat transitions, as well as rock formations (that is if you're not using plaster on top of the foam, and why would you bother?)

Overall, foam is fantastic for building almost any sort of layout (except for spaghetti bowls). It's fast, simple, and fun to build a foam-based layout. I should know; I've built two of my own, built about a dozen Ntrak modules, and have helped 4-5 local modelers build their own foam layouts, in addition to my father and brother's layouts. And these days, foam is cheaper than a wood-based layout, meaning you'll have more money to spend on things like steam engines!

[rrinker]

I need to try gluing two chunks of foam together with some latex caulk - it sure dries fast enough when gluing the WS foam roadbed to the foam board.

As for noise, I don't find this to be the case, at least not when using WS foam roadbed and the caulk as an adhesive. The only thing that makes alot of noise is an old Bowser PRR T1 loco, but the noise from the fam is the LEAST of the problems witht hat thing. Running a train of my cars that allw ere converted to Proto2000 metal wheels, behind a P2K or Stewart loco, and all you really hear is the shussssssshing of the metal wheels on the rails. Even on the 'unsupported' test section (piece of foam cut to 2x4 and sitting across a pair of saw horses), it was a bit louder but not objectionable. Now that the test section has ballast (held with white glue and water - or actualy I have even better results mixing the white glue with rubbing alcohol), it's MUCH quieter - other people have reported that the glue would form a solid connection between the track and the foam surface, making MORE noise, I have found just the opposite so far.

--Randy

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

Originally posted by tcf511

Downsides to using foam?

3) you can't dance on top of a foam-based layout.

Well, that convinces it for me! I'm dumping my foam and buildin' my next layout outta cast iron! If I can't do a flamenco dance as my 2-8-2 is doin' the Chattanooga choo-choo, I might as well take up soft shoe. [:)]

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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