Track fiddler CTConrail... thanks for the compliment. I see where you got your 2.08 from. I never did divide 100 by 48 before when I mentioned 1/48 is close enough to 1/50, it is 2.08 To be honest with you the second picture of the lowest level was an after-thought. It's a spur that will go down to a lumber mill built over a lake with logs floating around. This grade is a 2.6 before figuring in radius drag. 5/16 rise per foot. It's amazing what an added 1/16 can do. The reason I'm bringing this up is because I ran some tests on that grade. My SW 1500 switcher with traction Wheels could pull 15 cars up that grade. My F 7 with no traction wheels could pull 13. These were kind of junk cars that did not have Micro trains trucks on them. Some of them didn't even roll on their own. I don't see the need to pull or back down more cars than that to a lumber yard, so I guess this is acceptable to me. I do have a complete F7 A B C and D set. I am very curious to see how many cars that will pull on my 2.08% grades when I get my bridges done and I finally get my track laid. PS. I forgot to mention the radius on that 2.6 grade was 21. The Traction Tire locomotive pulled them up no problem. The F7 spun its Wheels but got the job done. Thanks TF
CTConrail... thanks for the compliment. I see where you got your 2.08 from. I never did divide 100 by 48 before when I mentioned 1/48 is close enough to 1/50, it is 2.08
To be honest with you the second picture of the lowest level was an after-thought. It's a spur that will go down to a lumber mill built over a lake with logs floating around. This grade is a 2.6 before figuring in radius drag. 5/16 rise per foot. It's amazing what an added 1/16 can do.
The reason I'm bringing this up is because I ran some tests on that grade. My SW 1500 switcher with traction Wheels could pull 15 cars up that grade. My F 7 with no traction wheels could pull 13.
These were kind of junk cars that did not have Micro trains trucks on them. Some of them didn't even roll on their own. I don't see the need to pull or back down more cars than that to a lumber yard, so I guess this is acceptable to me.
I do have a complete F7 A B C and D set. I am very curious to see how many cars that will pull on my 2.08% grades when I get my bridges done and I finally get my track laid.
PS. I forgot to mention the radius on that 2.6 grade was 21. The Traction Tire locomotive pulled them up no problem. The F7 spun its Wheels but got the job done.
Thanks TF
Nice! I wish I could fit a radius that big but this is designed as a shelf layout and as it sits I expanded the plan out to 3 feet in width at the ends which is really pushing it for 20" shelf brackets. I am going to have to add extensions on them for support. If I had the room I would love to model a section like yours with a lot of grades and a mountainous region. Keeping it open to a helix to drop down to a bottom shelf in the future so maybe.
Track fiddler CTConrail.... I was very curious to see where this thread would go. I think it is very wise you are deciding not to do 2.5 grades. A two percent grade on an 18 inch radius in N scale is somewhere close to a 2.7 degree grade with the radius drag ratio added. This is what I decided to stick to for a maximum, after careful planning. I am not ashamed to admit I spent two years in planning my N scale layout. That would mainly be two full Winters. I'm not inside doing my hobby when it's nice outside up here in Minnesota. We have to take advantage of those days. I did a one-to-one ratio plan on a 4 by 7 foot sheet of paper (railroad board, full scale). I started over and over tweaking things a little each time until I got my objective achieved. No grade over 2% and no radius under 18 inches. I am not short on money but that doesn't mean I like to spend it. I call them cheaters, I didn't necessarily not want to buy the Woodland Scenic's styrofoam grades. It just occurred to me if you made a cookie cutter layout out of 1 inch extruded foam keeping your risers 6 inches on center with only 1/8 inch of rise every 6 inches, this would be equivalent to a 2% grade. 1/48 is close enough to 1/50. I like to keep things simple. There are three levels on a 4 x 7 100% foam layout. Nothing over a 2% grade. Nothing under an 18 inch radius. It took long enough in the planning but I think it will be worth it. As of now my layout weighs about 5 pounds. That will make it easy someday when I'm old, going to train shows. I just need to get finished with my scratchbuilt bridges so I can lay my track I wish you the best of luck with your project. Track Fiddler
CTConrail.... I was very curious to see where this thread would go. I think it is very wise you are deciding not to do 2.5 grades. A two percent grade on an 18 inch radius in N scale is somewhere close to a 2.7 degree grade with the radius drag ratio added. This is what I decided to stick to for a maximum, after careful planning.
I am not ashamed to admit I spent two years in planning my N scale layout. That would mainly be two full Winters. I'm not inside doing my hobby when it's nice outside up here in Minnesota. We have to take advantage of those days.
I did a one-to-one ratio plan on a 4 by 7 foot sheet of paper (railroad board, full scale). I started over and over tweaking things a little each time until I got my objective achieved. No grade over 2% and no radius under 18 inches.
I am not short on money but that doesn't mean I like to spend it. I call them cheaters, I didn't necessarily not want to buy the Woodland Scenic's styrofoam grades. It just occurred to me if you made a cookie cutter layout out of 1 inch extruded foam keeping your risers 6 inches on center with only 1/8 inch of rise every 6 inches, this would be equivalent to a 2% grade. 1/48 is close enough to 1/50. I like to keep things simple.
There are three levels on a 4 x 7 100% foam layout. Nothing over a 2% grade. Nothing under an 18 inch radius. It took long enough in the planning but I think it will be worth it. As of now my layout weighs about 5 pounds. That will make it easy someday when I'm old, going to train shows. I just need to get finished with my scratchbuilt bridges so I can lay my track
I wish you the best of luck with your project.
Track Fiddler
I think it actually works out to around 2.08% grade for me to be honest but that is also not factoring in the radius which is 16.25 inner and 17.5 outter so I may run into a little bit of issues with long trains. Layout looks awesome by the way!
Thanks Mike.... I do remember spiking down my track in the early 70s when I was a kid. I suppose if one was hand laying track with spikes on foam risers, homasote roadbed would be way to go.
I don't think using homasote was a wasted effort Mike. Even if you found out you really didn't need to do that, the sound deadening qualities of homasote are phenomenal, very dense stuff.
We didn't glue our track down with caulk back in the early days. We could have, I guess nobody had thought of that back then.
I have chosen my track, Micro Engineering code 55. I forget who, but one of the other Forum members here suggested it to me. They said it holds its shape. I tried it out, it sure does! It holds its shape so well, I see no reason to solder track connectors on 18 inch radius curves.
I'm also going to look into Fast Trax turnouts. They look fun and I like the fact that you can have a larger variety than just number 6 turnouts TF
Great idea TF, I think that looks good.
I kind of did the same thing with a big island style layout, using foam scaps from work for risers, only I used homosote for the road bed, as back then, I thought you HAD to spike the track down.
Mike.
My You Tube
Just spread out the 3 percent, you need to do this consitantly though, like a 1/4" per peice or whatever works out to 2 1/2 percent. As an alternative, you can put it on the side and sharpy with a straight edge and hot wire off the extra. Love this stuff and would never go back to ply. Just make sure you transition the bottom and top (you have to hot wire the top for this anyway). I run cork on top of mine so the bottom transition is easy and it allows for me to gauge the top corectly.
Yes I am going to use foam actually. Thats a good idea. That can help me out as it seems any little bit of height I can save counts towards a lot.
What are you using for your base? If you are using foam, you could dig in a little to lower one track, while using the risers for the upper track.
There is a tunnel in the southern part of our state where they did just that, dug down to lower the trackbed so that taller cars could go through the tunnel.
Just a thought.
Good luck,
Richard
BigDaddy CTConrail My grades do not sit soley on a radius, only partially. There are straight sections also. Does this help my case as far as lowering my grade % some? It only helps it on the straight sections. I'm not sure how far along you are in the construction but I would do a mockup with (box) cardboard. It only has to be sturdy enough to run your train once and it doesn't even have to be on your layout. You want to see how your trains run. If it doesn't work, you've only wasted your time with some recycled cardboard.
CTConrail My grades do not sit soley on a radius, only partially. There are straight sections also. Does this help my case as far as lowering my grade % some?
It only helps it on the straight sections.
I'm not sure how far along you are in the construction but I would do a mockup with (box) cardboard. It only has to be sturdy enough to run your train once and it doesn't even have to be on your layout. You want to see how your trains run. If it doesn't work, you've only wasted your time with some recycled cardboard.
Ahh ok I see what you are saying. I just used the grade calculator .it says that i am at a 3.25 grade with a 15" radius if I lower the rise to 2" where if it was straight I would be at a 2.08% grade. I have not started construction yet. Hoping to in the next week or so. Still in the track plan phase which I thought I was almost done with. I will definitely do a mockup before I do anything permanent. I have some good engines and then some middle of the line engines however I don't want to have to run 3 good engines to pull a train and have fun with it. I will reassess my plan today and see where I can make alterations to it also.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Boiler-man I have been in N-Scale since the early 70's and have had several layouts with various grades and I do not think you will be happy with a 3.5% grade unless you are going to always be running 2 locos an no more than 10 light weight cars and if you follow NMRA weight spec for your rolling stock you will surely not be happy. I used 2% Woodland Scenic' risers and Atlas code 55 track on my current layout and some of my 30 car trains require 3 locos to pull the grade. My normal train length is 12 to 15 40 ft. box cars and a caboose behind a 4-8-4 steam loco with traction tires and they work great on the 2% grades. Just my thoughts and experience.
I have been in N-Scale since the early 70's and have had several layouts with various grades and I do not think you will be happy with a 3.5% grade unless you are going to always be running 2 locos an no more than 10 light weight cars and if you follow NMRA weight spec for your rolling stock you will surely not be happy.
I used 2% Woodland Scenic' risers and Atlas code 55 track on my current layout and some of my 30 car trains require 3 locos to pull the grade. My normal train length is 12 to 15 40 ft. box cars and a caboose behind a 4-8-4 steam loco with traction tires and they work great on the 2% grades. Just my thoughts and experience.
I don't mind running 2 or more engines however I don't think I will be happy with a 3.5% either. I didnt want to go higher than 2.5% honestly but unfortunately becauseof my lack of space I need to utilize the radius on each end for the inclines. I am going to have to try to reassess my plan yet again and take some measurements of track with roadbed and my highest car on it (double stack or autorack) and see if I can lower my rise a little. I can probably lower it to 2" from 2.5" which will help my case a little.
My grades do not sit soley on a radius, only partially. There are straight sections also. Does this help my case as far as lowering my grade % some? Or is the fact that the grade is partially on a radius totally screw me?
Ouch...yeah unfortunately I designed this with a 15" radius as thats what i was able to get away with as this is going to be on shelf brackets so this is going to present a whole other set of problems as that will push me closer to a 4% grade than a 3%. That doesn't quite work for me. I guess its back to the drawing board.
riogrande5761 I don't know Jack about N scale train physics.
Count me in on the Jack club, too.
Cuyama posted 17.5 as the N scale numerator in 2013. Not being familiar with N scale radii, I wasn't sure how that related, but he figured that out for us, too. A 22" radius = 17.5/22 adds 0.79% to the grade. Of course that is twice the Atlas N scale sectional track radius
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/221186.aspx
I've been considering a grade for my future layout and have been thinking of using the WS ST1412, Incline Starter Set to get the verticle transition right. From the end of that first 2' section, then to the needed clearance I plan to use 2" foam, shimmed as necessary to get to the desired height. If the first two feet is 2% probably the remainder would be just a little over 2 1/2%.
carl425 riogrande5761 Basically 32/radius of the curve= grade equivalent. That is the HO formula. Scaled down to N-scale it's 17.4/radius.
riogrande5761 Basically 32/radius of the curve= grade equivalent.
That is the HO formula. Scaled down to N-scale it's 17.4/radius.
I've never seen an N scale version of that. As you continue to make clear, I don't know Jack about N scale train physics. Shall I say "never mind" and bow out of the N scale topic where I don't belong? Cheers.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761Basically 32/radius of the curve= grade equivalent.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
CTConrail Oh and PS Mel, where I messed up is that its a 2.5" rise not a 3" so it is closer to a 2.5% grade. However a large portion of the grade is on a radius so how if at all will this affect the grade?
Oh and PS Mel, where I messed up is that its a 2.5" rise not a 3" so it is closer to a 2.5% grade. However a large portion of the grade is on a radius so how if at all will this affect the grade?
Grade on a radius increases the effective grade.
Some discussions here on that:
In a nutshell:
Grade equivalent, is the drag (expressed as a grade) that a train sees from going through a curve.
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/31569
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/946
Oh and PS, where I messed up is that its a 2.5" rise not a 3" so it is closer to a 2.5% grade. However a large portion of the grade is on a radius so how if at all will this affect the grade?
Carl425 Yes. Is N scale able to haul more cars up the same grade or less than HO on average?
Yes. Is N scale able to haul more cars up the same grade or less than HO on average?
Thats a good question and I was wondering the same. Bigger motors on HO but less weight on N so I would guess around the same but not sure honestly. Anyone know the answer?
carl425 riogrande5761 The above layout was 10x18'. If you are working with a 7x9.5, then what is a "longer" train? I'd guess on a layout that size, 15 cars would be on the long side. Are you forgetting he's in N scale?
riogrande5761 The above layout was 10x18'. If you are working with a 7x9.5, then what is a "longer" train? I'd guess on a layout that size, 15 cars would be on the long side.
Are you forgetting he's in N scale?
selector The quickest way to do this, without all the cutting and shimming, is to cut out the length and radius in 1/2" plywood, and then support it with quickly chopped 1X2 risers. A few screws and you have your slope. You'd only need maybe five risers in total, each spaced about 20" apart, plus the plywood flexed vertical curve at each end of the grade. This could all be accomplished inside of an hour, and that includes sweeping the supporting surfaces free of debris....and a trip to the toilet.
The quickest way to do this, without all the cutting and shimming, is to cut out the length and radius in 1/2" plywood, and then support it with quickly chopped 1X2 risers. A few screws and you have your slope. You'd only need maybe five risers in total, each spaced about 20" apart, plus the plywood flexed vertical curve at each end of the grade. This could all be accomplished inside of an hour, and that includes sweeping the supporting surfaces free of debris....and a trip to the toilet.
I have not written this off as an option either. Thanks!
I actually used an online calculator and also the software I designed the plan with calculated the grade for me. I slightly redesigned my plan from where I got my original measurements because my original plan looked way too cluttered track wise (that's what happens when you try to squeeze so many industries in a smaller layout) so that could be how I screwed it up. I have to go to my software when I get a sec and look at my track plan again and see what the deal is.
riogrande5761 For what it's worth, on my last layout I had 2.9% grades up and out of staging and two 6-axle SD45's could pull a 24 car coal train up no problems.
For what it's worth, on my last layout I had 2.9% grades up and out of staging and two 6-axle SD45's could pull a 24 car coal train up no problems.
I will be running at least a 2 engine consist most times, SD80s or AC4400s for the longer intermodal trains and actually Mel made me realize I either did my math wrong and actually have closer to a 3% or I am not remembering the length of my grade runs correctly. If I did do the math wrong I could just use the WS 3% risers. If I am lucky enoughnto have the same results as you with ability to pull 24 cars with 2 engines then I am ok with a 3%. i do also have the cheap plastic risers (in N and HO) that railandsand mentioned so I could use those to test and get an idea before making my risers out of pink foam. However it is a 2 track main but I can still use them to get height measurements. I'm sure once I start building I will be ok. If I am actually at a 2.5% like I thought then Stix I like your idea also. Thanks guys!!