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Brass Tracked Turnouts in Modern NS Track Layout

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, November 6, 2018 8:20 AM

IRONROOSTER
But it still doesn't look right and I don't care how you paint/weather the sides it's still brass on top

That is how I feel as well, brass track just doesn't look right even if you paint the sides, the top is still that yellowish metal.

So even if people can't agree on the electrical conductivity, brass doesn't have a silver shine on the rail surface that looks most like real rail.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Tuesday, November 6, 2018 7:13 AM

I used brass on my first 3 layouts - fiber ties with staples flex track and Atlas turnouts.  Sure if you have it all out in the open and a small 4x8 or 6x6 layout plus a stack of bright boys you can keep it clean without too much trouble.

But it still doesn't look right and I don't care how you paint/weather the sides it's still brass on top.

I still have a couple of odd pieces, but they are just dustables now.

Paul

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, November 5, 2018 11:19 AM

Brian,

.

Thank you for looking, and for the offer, but I really need the solid metal one from Standard Model.

.

This might be quite a long search.

.

-Kevin

.

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Posted by railandsail on Monday, November 5, 2018 9:30 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
railandsail
Are you looking for a brass 45 degree crossing? I have one you can have for free.....just send me a private email. I'm in Florida

 

.

Thank you... This one is the one that I need:

.

.

It is a bit of an older oddball piece. Does it match the one you have?

.

-Kevin

.

 

This is the one I have, but with brass rail

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Posted by cowman on Sunday, November 4, 2018 6:24 PM

I easily sold brass track and turnouts at a show.  I had a booth with other things to sell.  

If you don't have enough to set up a table, see if there is a dealer that will buy it to resell.  You won't get much, but it is worth something to some folks.

I saved some brass and steel track to use for scenic elements:  rail loads, maintenance yard scenes and scrap loads.

Good luck,

Richard 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Sunday, November 4, 2018 5:31 PM

railandsail
Are you looking for a brass 45 degree crossing? I have one you can have for free.....just send me a private email. I'm in Florida

.

Thank you... This one is the one that I need:

.

.

It is a bit of an older oddball piece. Does it match the one you have?

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, November 4, 2018 3:22 PM

7j43k

The thing that causes brass to turn brown from gold is right at your fingertips.  It IS your fingertips.  The "stuff" on your fingertips, actually.

Now you have to figure out how to install it without touching it.

Ed

 
How about using that 'magic wand' SurpriseWink
 
I had collected up a fair little number of double-curve turnouts over the years, and never bothered to actually measure out the actual radii of them. Some of them 'appeared' to be different enough to suggest that they provide a variety of double curves.
 
Well for the most part that turns out to not be the case. Most all of the Code100 (Atlas, Roco, Cassidio, Peco....) turn out to be 18" inner radius, and 22" outer radius. I have plenty of the nickle silver versions of those, so I will NOT being utilizing a brass ones.
I sure wish I had found one with an outer radius of at least 24". I'm trying to configure the head of a yard ladder system like this,...

2 Dbl-Curves on Ladder, 24"R Track into Peninsula Area

I was playing around with this idea.

Seeing as how my single dbl-curve turnout didn't bring that yard track out to the proposed edge of my shelf, I might well put in another dbl-curve, and end up with an additional yard track for storage or that might serve my steel mill, etc. So maybe 2 dbl-curves at the head of the ladder. .

If I should experience any derail problems with these Peco dble curves, turns out I have a number of other brands I collected over the years,....Atlas, Roco, Casadyo. ...And lastly they will be very close to the aisle for accessibility.

While fooling around with this idea, I wondered if I might provide for a 24" radius track to enter that peninsula area? This is what I came up with do far. The tape measure lying there is set at 30", my initial idea for shelf depth on that side of the layout. The white paper cutout represents the aisle space, also 30" wide.

The two parallel tracks on the upper left side would serve the turntable and the curved route with steam engine access, and would go under the a coaling tower along there. The addition 'outside chute' (third rail) of the coaling tower would serve the ladder straight for those smaller steam switchers.

 

 

 


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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:23 PM

The thing that causes brass to turn brown from gold is right at your fingertips.  It IS your fingertips.  The "stuff" on your fingertips, actually.

As an experiment, and for fun, I polished up a nice chunk of brass.  And made sure not to touch it with my skin.  It stayed "shiny gold" for a very long time.  Months, anyway (I did it back in 1980)(Yeah, it's around here, somewhere)(I AM a model railroader, after all).

So, if you have a Never Touched by Human Hands brass turnout, it shouldn't be a surprise if it's still fresh looking.

Now you have to figure out how to install it without touching it.

Ed

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:14 PM

45 degree crossing

SeeYou190

I intend to make a double 45 degree crossing on my layout out of code 100 brass components (if I can locate 1 more), and have no revervations about it.

-Kevin

Are you looking for a brass 45 degree crossing? I have one you can have for free.....just send me a private email. I'm in Florida

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:40 PM

railandsail
...Would I consider placing a single brass specialty turnout in trackplan near the aisle? Yes. Its going to represent such a small area of track, and its going to be easy to reach with a brightboy.

I don't see any reason why a few easy-to-reach turnouts would be too much of a cleaning burden, and at least you don't have to contend with brass wheels. 
If you paint the sides of the rails like the rest of the track, and keep the brass railtops clean, they won't be all that noticeable as brass, either. 

If you feel that the brass turnouts are operationally as good as, or better, than current-day nickel-silver offerings, go for it.

Wayne

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Posted by railandsail on Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:28 PM


First off I must say there is no way I would consider laying brass track for an entire layout. As others have said its just too much to keep clean. So folks started to switch over to NS, and the turnout manufacturers followed suit.

But in some cases they did not continue to build all the same turnouts in NS. And/or they have ceased to build some of the turnout configurations in NS. That is sort of what prompted me to make this posting. I was looking thru my 'collection' of various brands of double-curve turnouts to see what radii selection I might have to chose from,...without resorting to custom construction.

I was surprised at the limited choices, and got to wondering what might have been made in the past, even in brass, that might be viable. And if I found something that had only been made in brass, could it be adopted to a modern layout of primarily NS.

One thing I noticed about most of my older double-curve turnouts is that they all had metal frogs (might be good for live frog DCC). Also a few of them had frogs built to incorporate the different curves,...don't see that these days. That prompted me to think about the possibility of replacing the brass track with NS.

I also found some old Atlas brass double-curves that look as good as the day they were made (bright and shiny),...and they have definitely not been pamper by proper environmental storage,...in fact they have been in a HOT,  HUMID cargo trailer sitting in direct FL sunshine for the past 4 years.

I also have some Roco turnouts (made in Austria) that I consider VERY well made turnouts.

Would I consider placing a single brass specialty turnout in trackplan near the aisle? Yes.
Its going to represent such a small area of track, and its going to be easy to reach with a brightboy.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, November 3, 2018 9:05 PM

On my first layout, I had Atlas brass track (on fibre ties - turnouts, also from Atlas, were kits).  My locomotives, steam and diesel, had brass wheels. 

When the wheels and track were clean, the trains ran great.  When the track oxidised (usually in less than a week) it was easy enough to clean, but locomotive wheels less-so.  I generally placed some dry fine wet/dry sandpaper under the wheels on one side, then held the loco while applying power. 
Both cleaning rituals got tedious pretty quickly.

My next layout and my current one used nickel silver track, and while the second layout was fairly short-lived, the current one has been around for a while.  I've cleaned track only after ballasting or after adding scenic material near the track.  I don't clean loco wheels, either, except for the one steamer with brass drivers, and it's currently in the shop for a re-build, which will include new drivers.  The majority of the freight cars have plastic wheels. 

My layout is DC powered, so no keep-alives, or bus wires with feeders all over the place, just low maintenance and good performance on nickel-silver rails.

I do, however, still use brass rail...

Wayne

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, November 3, 2018 5:42 PM

The elephant in the room is that brass track looks like brass track.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Saturday, November 3, 2018 5:37 PM

Just do a poll and which ever side gets the most votes decides for Brian.  /Solved

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, November 3, 2018 5:29 PM

7j43k

 

 
SeeYou190

I was always told that Nickel Silver was better because the oxide it produced was conductive.

 

 

The oxides of the metals in nickel silver are not conductive.  Anyone who says so is wrong.  As in:  wrong!

 

 

 

I believe Nickel Silver rail became popular around the same time higher quality ready to run track components became available, and that contributes to the reputation of the material.

 

 

 

 

I was there.  It took awhile for it to become popular.  That's because, at first, you could only get rail.  So only people who could build their own track could use it.  Since those people were looked up to by all the other model railroaders (because of their skill), and because the rail was the right color, it became, not popular so much, as glamorous.

Glamorous in model railroading.  Who knew?

After awhile (a NOTICEABLE "awhile"), it became available in flex track.  But ya still had to build your switches.  Or use brass, as has been posited here (I don't recall anyone doing that, however).

THEN switches showed up.

I think PERHAPS Atlas dragged their feet on nickel silver, and PERHAPS Shinohara filled the void first, pretty much out of nowhere.  Imported by Lambert (the name of the family dog).

 

Also.  Brass track was Code 100.  Some of the new nickel silver rail was Code 70.  VAST improvement:  Giant wrong-colored rail or proper-sized proper-colored rail.  Hmmmm.  Decisions, decisions.

That rail, too, was hand laid.  At first.  I did it myself, on an 18" x 8' layout.  The main was Code 100.  The interchange with the branch was Code 70.  There was no Code 83 yet.  

 

Ed

 

No perhaps about it, Ed is right on point here. I was there too, working in several hobby shops......

My first layout was brass, it worked fine. If you ran trains regularly, track cleaning was minimal, and my Ribbon Rail track cleaning car worked fine.

Yes, code 100 is oversized, so is the width of our wheels and the size of our flanges......

Would I use brass today? No, but then again I have seldom tried to salvage track from old layouts and I don't buy other peoples cast offs, especially things like track.

Most of my new layout will be ATLAS code 83, just like the last layout. Turnouts are the main thing I did salvage, and some flex track that was nailed, not glued, in some stagging areas.

Any special trackwork I need will be hand layed, but I have come up with a method by which I build things like curved turnouts from regular ATLAS custom line turnouts.

That first layout was a mix of TruScale ReadyTrack and hand layed on their Self Gauging Roadbed.

And actually, prototype or not, those Tru Scale high speed turnouts with the closing frogs worked really well too........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 3, 2018 4:41 PM

Harold,

4.98 guys should be knocking on your door REAL soon.

 

Ed

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Posted by hminky on Saturday, November 3, 2018 4:23 PM

7j43k

4.98 out of 5 agree that painting decent looking clouds on a backdrop is impossible. They are all looking for that .02 guy.  To make him an offer he can't refuse.

Clouds are easy, but brass track has always been bad.

Just splotch some paint on for cloudsSmile, Wink & Grin

Just throw out the brass track.

Harold

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:53 PM

riogrande5761

Welcome to MR forums where you can't get 4 out of 5 model railroaders to agree on many things. 

 

5 out of 5 model railroaders agree that trains are good (should we try for 6?).

5 out of 5 agree that not having trains is bad.

5 out of 5 agree that DCC can be VERY irritating.

4.98 out of 5 agree that painting decent looking clouds on a backdrop is impossible. They are all looking for that .02 guy.  To make him an offer he can't refuse.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:42 PM

Welcome to MR forums where you can't get 4 out of 5 model railroaders to agree on many things.

I'll throw my 2 cents worth in.  No thanks on brass.  My experiences with it many years ago were not so good.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 3, 2018 2:25 PM

SeeYou190

I was always told that Nickel Silver was better because the oxide it produced was conductive.

The oxides of the metals in nickel silver are not conductive.  Anyone who says so is wrong.  As in:  wrong!

 

I believe Nickel Silver rail became popular around the same time higher quality ready to run track components became available, and that contributes to the reputation of the material.

 

 

I was there.  It took awhile for it to become popular.  That's because, at first, you could only get rail.  So only people who could build their own track could use it.  Since those people were looked up to by all the other model railroaders (because of their skill), and because the rail was the right color, it became, not popular so much, as glamorous.

Glamorous in model railroading.  Who knew?

After awhile (a NOTICEABLE "awhile"), it became available in flex track.  But ya still had to build your switches.  Or use brass, as has been posited here (I don't recall anyone doing that, however).

THEN switches showed up.

I think PERHAPS Atlas dragged their feet on nickel silver, and PERHAPS Shinohara filled the void first, pretty much out of nowhere.  Imported by Lambert (the name of the family dog).

 

Also.  Brass track was Code 100.  Some of the new nickel silver rail was Code 70.  VAST improvement:  Giant wrong-colored rail or proper-sized proper-colored rail.  Hmmmm.  Decisions, decisions.

That rail, too, was hand laid.  At first.  I did it myself, on an 18" x 8' layout.  The main was Code 100.  The interchange with the branch was Code 70.  There was no Code 83 yet.  

 

Ed

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, November 3, 2018 1:48 PM

Brass track for special circumstances is OK.

.

Specifically, Shinohara never made a #5 code 70 turnout with Nickel Silver Rail, but they did produce it in brass for a while.

.

Brass is a better conductor than Nickel Silver. Brass is easier to solder than nickel silver. 

.

I think the superiority of Nickel Silver is exagerated. Nickel Silver does look better, but once the sides of the rail are painted it is difficult to tell. 

.

I was always told that Nickel Silver was better because the oxide it produced was conductive. Well... my personal experience has seen otherwise. It still need to be cleaned.

.

I intend to make a double 45 degree crossing on my layout out of code 100 brass components (if I can locate 1 more), and have no revervations about it.

.

I believe Nickel Silver rail became popular around the same time higher quality ready to run track components became available, and that contributes to the reputation of the material.

.

-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Saturday, November 3, 2018 1:34 PM

You can use brass switches and be good to go. I do recommand painting the rail just like you would nickel silver track.

As far as brass needing more cleaaning concider the almost monthly topics we have had on keeping nickol silver track clean.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by trainnut1250 on Saturday, November 3, 2018 12:27 PM

Brian,

How much time have you got??  Don't waste it with brass track. Toss it and don't look back. If you install it, you will most likely end up removing it at some point....

Guy

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Posted by dknelson on Saturday, November 3, 2018 12:17 PM

Brass track is easy to solder, easier than N-S in my experience. 

If kept clean it works fine -- I do not mean to minimize the challenges to that "if" by the way. 

Guys were happy with brass track for decades but the switchover to nickle silver was pretty rapid once a good variety of supplies and sources for nickle silver flex track and turnouts became available with appearance being one huge advantage, better operation being another. 

Interestingly, guys seemed happier with brass track when virtually all wheels were metal.  The advent of nickle silver track coincided with the advent of lots more plastic wheels.  I can remember removing accumulated gunk from my plastic wheeled freight cars on my first snap track layout and the gunk had a decidedly "brass" color tinge to it.  Hmmm.  

While I would never go out and acquire more brass track I see no harm in experimenting if it is bought and paid for and sitting right there, given your intended use, but my deep hunch is that at some point the brass will get replaced.  

Dave Nelson

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 3, 2018 11:41 AM

When I wrote "hidden yard", I had in mind hidden off-stage, not under the scenery.  I guess I chose the wrong words.

I envisioned on-the-other-side-of-the-backdrop.  With plenty of headroom for manipulating the off-stage rolling stock.  Like transferring it from storage boxes to track.

I'm talking about a yard that's maybe 2 feet wide and 12-16 feet long.  That takes a LOT of track.  And, like I said, if it turned into a problem, I could rip it out inside an hour.  And be where I started, the experiment over.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, November 3, 2018 11:35 AM

 I think I'd do just the oppoosite - brass rail requires more cleaning, so putting it in hidden, hard to reach areas is asking for it. You CAN paint brass rail just like most people paint nickel-silver rail. 

 But mostly I'm with Ulrich, I would avoid brass track today.

                                    --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, November 3, 2018 11:13 AM

Brass is more conductive than nickel-silver.

The nickel in the nickel-silver may slow/moderate the occurance of various oxides and sulfides that appear on brass rail surface, and impede rail to wheel electrical continuity.  

I suspect the problem with the above is overblown.  But if I am wrong, and you install them, who loses?

I might use brass track:

in a hidden yard--Code 100, too, for that matter

AND

if the hidden yard could be easily removed and replaced if my chance-taking turned out to be a bad choice.

 

 

I wouldn't use brass rail out where it shows because, well, it shows.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:24 AM

Don´t bother to tinker around with your brass switches - it isn´t worth the effort. Just put them in the trash can and good riddance!

Other than nickel-silver, corroding brass rail turns into a bad conductor.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Brass Tracked Turnouts in Modern NS Track Layout
Posted by railandsail on Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:18 AM

 


This may just be a hypothetical concept, but the thought came up today as I explored some of my numerous inventory of turnouts collected over the years. There are a number of nice quality, and like new condition brass turnouts of various varieties in that collection. Are they all destined to the trash heap, or can some of them be utilized??

 

 

 

***********************
I guess one of the first questions that comes up would be about their electrical conductivity. Is brass track really any less conductive along the rails than NS, nickle silver? Then if we consider just a single short section of brass rail as we might encounter by inserting a single brass turnout into a layout consisting of all NS track, is it going to make a great difference in terms of electric conductivity?....and particularly if we provide it with its own feeders as we might with DCC wiring??

 


I don't think the rail to rail conductivity is going to suffer.

 

Then how about the rail to wheel conductivity? I believe that if the rail heads are kept clean, as we strive for anyway, the single inserted brass turnout is not going to be that detrimental to the overall layout?

 


Appearance? Certainly many modelers would be concerned about the difference in the color of the brass track as opposed to the color of NS rail. But if the track (and particularly the track in that area) was weather to a significant degree, this color difference in the railheads might be acceptable for the 'other than rivet counters'.

 


Conversion? What about the possibility of sliding the existing brass track out of the ties, and sliding in new nickle silver rail? Might be cheaper and easier than custom building a new turnout??

 

 

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