for a novice reading about a new hobby, commercial products and threads seem to suggest conventional ways of doing things. Based on what i 've read on forums and from magazine advertisements, you might think all the big operations oriented layout use the not so inexpensive commercial components.
but since joining a club and seeing how other club members have built their layouts, I observed methods for doing things that I've not read much about and that are less expensive and more pragmatic.
i'm sure many of you will read this thread and say you've been doing that for years. I'm not suggesting these approaches are novel, just that they are less talked about and perhaps more popular that you might think.
The layouts I've seen these approaches on are high quality operation oriented layouts that have weekly operating sessions with few problems (e.g. derailments).
- metal frog turnouts
all turnouts have metal frogs. I've seen ME turnouts, some built with FastTracks jigs but also large (#16) and large radius curved hand laid turnouts. Some use proto87 frogs.
- turnout switch point control
the switch points are controlled use a bent linkage with swing arms on top and bottom that passes thru the benchwork about a cm from the switch tie. The upper arm has a short 2nd bend that fits into the switch point tie. Any installation precision is above the benchwork.
A tortoise machine is used to drive the linkage, it connects to the lower swing arm of the linkage with a 2nd wire to rotate it. This approach doesn't require precise location of the switch machine allowing it to accomodate benchwork obstructions.g
- short circuit protection
while the Pacific Southern uses circuit breakers that tie back into the CTS system to generate an alert of a short, the personal layouts i've seen just use bulbs. The bulb both limits the current and indicates a problem. Bulbs are of course less expensive than circuit breakers.
- high benchwork
so that you can sit on a chair to work under the bench and use an 8" platform to stand on for above bench work if needed.
- solderless proto boards
one layout simply used solderless protoboards to built layout control circuits instead of commercial or handmade PC boards.
- Arduinos
Arduinos have replaced the use of custom designed boards using PIC processors
These layouts may use Arduinos for typical things such as LED, servo, turntable and CMRI-like node applications.
Arduinos MR Control Systems cpNodesu are used in place of diode-matrix route control to affect all turnouts to establish a route thru complex trackwork.
- multi-node I/O
The Pacific Souther RR has been using an RS-422 bus connecting the dispatcher computer to custom C/MRI-like I/O nodes located throughout the layout. This minimizes wiring and allows the PC to communicate with the layout through a single serial interface. These nodes input block detection, turnout positions, circuit breaker signals and output turnout control and signal aspects.
- custom CTC
The Pacific Southern RR is 90x45. A dispatcher controls turnouts and signals over a large portion of the layout. A custom approach developed as a Borland windows application was developed after evaluating JMRI. Multiple screens are used because of the size of the size of the layout.
This approach also supports remote displays (wifi) using laptops scattered around the layout so tower operators can monitor trains.
It's interesting to read how various modelers solve problems. But it's been an eye opener for me to see how these larger operation oriented layouts are built, drawing on the expertise of various club members, using less expensive components and less precise installation methods.
I assume large layouts use methods not commonly discussed on the forums that would be interesting to hear about.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Sometimes it's a case of the old being new again - or the new "simpler" methods, while being easier, add some distadvantages.
Example, metal frogs. Was a time when that's all there was, unles syou maybe carved a frog out of wood. Then along came "snap" track and the wiring was easier and thre was practically no cutting required, it just all fit together (mostly). I wouldn't use anything BUT metal frogs. I built 2 layouts now where I INTENDED to power them but it turned out I didn;t need to, none of my equipment stalled. However, the next layout will have #8's and there's not going to be any shortcuts, that's a LONG frog.
The turnout linkage - that too is an onld trick, in fact there used to be a comemrcial product to make such a thing. I employeed that very method on my last layout because one turnout ended up just a little too close to a support - too close to even fit an SG90 servo, so a Tortoise would be right out. Relocated the servo, built a linkage similar to that shown, and it workes great. Downside is there is more 'stuff' visible up top. It mostly disappeared when I painted it at the same time as I painted the rails.
Light bulbs - AGE old 'short' protection. Not a fan though, because as you no doubt know, it doesn't really protect anything, it simply limits the current to whatever the particular light bulb draws, about 2.5 amps for the 1156 type (or is that 1157). On DC that's not really much of a problem - you usually aren;t running full throttle. But 15V DC, at 2.5 amps = 37.5 watts which, running through a derailed truck, generates plenty of heat to melt something. Eventually someone will notice the light bulb and shut the power off, but I much prefer something that will compeltely kill the power. But, the idea of using light bulbs goes back almost as long as electric trains.
Most of the rest is new ideas, at least to the hobby of model railroading. Distributed control nodes - also applies to the power source. Defeats the purpose when I see a large layout with a shelf in one corner holding 4-5 DCC boosters. Why? The point is to keep the high current track bus length to a minimum. You do that by placing the boosters near the track they power, not grouped on a power shellf where some have 20 foot runs ans some have 200 foot runs. Distributed nodes for the control systems is relatively new - across the board, actually. COnsider the original CMRI, Bruce Chubb was using it on his larg elayuout in the early 80's, and wrote bout it in the mid 80's. Up until the very end of the series, it wasn't distributed at all - the computer connected to an IOMB that had all the IO cards plugged in and you ran LOTS of wire to the detectors and signals. Thank goodness for 50 pair telephone cable and punchdown blocks. At the very end there was a hint of things to come, likely inspired by his day job workign with control systems - the serial card, which allowed you to run an RS422/486 bus fromt he computer to MULTIPLE IOMBs located around the layout. Still more concentrated than the modern smaller nodes, but not completely concentrated in one small spot. Other systems also work on this distrubuted concept today - Loconet, some systems use Ethernet as a physical layer, and LCC usining the CAN bus.
Not sure I'd use a solderless breadboard as a permanent element on my layout. For testing and debugging, absolutely.
Arduinos bring microcontrollers to the masses. Much easier to work with than a bare microcontroller chip, and the software infrastructure makes it easier to use relative to native programming tools. Set registers to detemine which pins are input and which areoutput? What? Arduino IDE hides that backend stuff. However, while I love using them to design, the circuits I am placing on my railroad DO use the bare chips - still programmed via the Arduino IDE. For a large layout, this would seem a bit more practical than sticking full Arduinos everywhere, even plugged in to a board like the cpNode.
Our club layout does use JMRI for the disptacher panel, but it's modeled after the modern type, where the DS clicks on track and signal elements to set routes and clear signals. No levers or buttons, real or simulated.It does take dual monitors to display it all, and that's with it having 2 main rows plus some extra trackage stuffed in between. Not my style what I REALLY want is a physical US&S style machine, but it would be foolish to build somethign like that without a proven layout design, so initially I will write my own simulated system which, once the layout is proven and any design changes are made, will morph into a real physical machine. Main reason it just because it's one of those things that fascinates me.
One of the main things we did 'differently' at the old club I belonged to, in pre-DCC days, was that the fascia controls for DC cab selection didn;t pass track power - most small toggles and rotary switches really aren't meant to switch high current levels. Instead, we built each cab panel pretty much identically - the switches controlled relays, and it was the relays that actually switched the power from the cabs to the rails. There's a tendency to think of relays as old-fashioned and outdated, but they are still a more than viable method of using low voltage/current to switch a higher voltage/current. Fo a basic balloon loop or a wye, a relay or two controlled by the switch machine contacts can handle all the polarity reversal needed - and while relays do switch slower than a MOSFET controlled by a microcontroller, they still switch plenty fast enough that sound shouldn;t drop out on sound locos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerExample, metal frogs. ... I wouldn't use anything BUT metal frogs. I built 2 layouts now where I INTENDED to power them but it turned out I didn;t need to, none of my equipment stalled.
You may have mentioned it but I don't recall, which metal frog turnout did you install in the above mentioned layouts?
I am planning a layout right now and intend to minimize switch machines as much as possible by installing finger flick Peco's and/or ME turnouts.
The only funky linkage I have ever done is to attach Atlas switch machines to Shinohara turnouts using C channel plastic stock in a creative way.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
in the layouts I discussed, the short frogs on the smaller yard turnouts were not powered. But the longer frogs on the much larger mainline turnouts need to be powered.
I used Atlas Custom Line, the older layoout had #6 on the main and #4 in the yard, none of the locos I ran at the time had an issue with stalling even at slow speed. Last layout had tighter radius curves so no pooint in using #6s, they were all #4's. Each one with a wire attached to the frog and ready to provide power - until I was able to run my smallest loco at speed step 1 without stalling. So when I took the layotu down, it had a whole bunch of green wires hanging down, not attached to anything.
New layout will be Peco Electrofrog. Unless they get the Code 83 line switched to Unifrog by the time I start buying. The new US style Code 70 they are coming out with uses the new Unifrog design for the turnouts, I will be using that on sidings for the smaller rail size. Since the main will have #8's for sure, I will probably need to actually power these and won't be able to cheat.
Last layout I built with plastic frog turnouts was probably the N scale layout I built in Jr. High, last layout I built before college. It used N scale Atlas Snap Track turnouts and flex track. First post-college layout (well post college) was my little shelf layout that was 2 small plans from 101 Track Plans plus my own design for the middle shelf connecting them, that one used Atlas Code 100 Custom Line, and I didn't power the frogs, my handful of locos worked fine (and it was a DC layout).
In my youth, 45 years ago, I was a member of a well known and still in operation club - the Severna Park Model Railroad Club. Their layout was the cover story in MR many times, and the same layout still in operation today. Look them up in the Archive.
Track/turnouts - all hand layed without the benifit of Fast Tracks......a skill I was taught by the masters there.
Switch Machines - state of the art in those days, Polaris/PFM twin coil machines with home made links.
Short Circuit protection - resetable fuses on each of five control panels - last time I was there, just a few years back, the layout was still DC - I don't know if they have made the DCC move yet.
Other control methods - At Severna Park mailine turnouts controlled on a dispatchers panel.
For train control, if the DC system is still in use, engineers at fixed locations power their trains by pluging shorted miniature phone jacks into a map of the layout on their control panel - they must know where the other trains are and not plug into a block already in use.
The layout has detection and signaling with several large display boards showing the movement of all mainline trains.
The signal system was designed and built by one of the members - modified twin-T I believe.
I am starting a new layout, that will fill about 1600 sq ft and handle about 30 staged trains, similar in size to some clubs. I have no plans to use/do anything different from the last one for the most part.
Turnouts - Atlas Custom Line or hand Layed where specials are required. All frogs powered by contacts on the same relays that intergrate the turnout controls with the signals, except for "in street" waterfront trackage done with Atlas Snap Switches - frogs there are so short, no pickup issues even with small locos (GE 44 toner).
Linkages - standard Tortiose setup, or Tortiose remote kit for difficult spots. (I own cases of Tortiose machines...)
Yards, belt lines and sidings will have manual turnout controls - built from sub minature slide switches mounted in the roadbed and operated by the same little screwdiver used for manual uncoupling. The slide switches provide frog power contacts and DC power routing logic.
Control System - Advanced Cab Control with Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttles.
System features:
Walk around or dispatcher operation of as many as eight mainline trains.
Detection and signaling with working interlockings and Automatic Train Control (not automation, automatic safety stopping like the prototype)
One buttom route control of turnouts at both local towers and CTC panel. Train detection also indicated on both tower and local panels.
The system uses Dallee inductive detectors, and 24 volt ice cube relays. It is based on the orginal works of Bruce Cubb and Ed Ravenscroft and is of my own design. You can read all about the relay based systems they built in the acrhive as well - in the dark ages ofthe 1960's and 70's.
So not everyone is using the pricey off the shelf stuff promoted in the model press.
The PWM output of the Aristo throttles provides great motor control and headlights come on full brightness before the train moves.
My control system cost WAY less than any DCC/computer/solid state system with the same features.
Benchwork - not real high, not real low, but much wiring is done on the bench and installed under the layout in centrally located modules.
Sheldon