MisterBeasley When I started my layout, it was April and I figured I would have a lot of it up and running by Christmas. I wasn't even close. Doing it takes time, and doing it right takes even more time. Start small and don't expect too much from yourself.
When I started my layout, it was April and I figured I would have a lot of it up and running by Christmas. I wasn't even close. Doing it takes time, and doing it right takes even more time. Start small and don't expect too much from yourself.
I get it. And actually I'm hoping for that. I dreamed up this big idea only 2-3 weeks ago and I feel like I'll be done too soon. Our trains don't go up until the weekend after thanksgiving. So beleive it or not I'm hoping it keeps me busy so I dont finish too soon :-)
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
7j43k Kupla thoughts (written before reading the previous post): I suggest it might be better to just do the under-the-tree part this year, with maybe short extensions off the "layout" from the two track switches. This will give you time to learn more and to figure where you want to go. I think you should consider DCC/sound someday. It's not needed this year--maybe later. The reason is that the sound will be way-cool to a kid. Good news is that a DC layout is VERY easy to convert. Kids LOVE "accessories". Just look at an old Lionel catalog. These, too, can be added over time. Ed
Kupla thoughts (written before reading the previous post):
I suggest it might be better to just do the under-the-tree part this year, with maybe short extensions off the "layout" from the two track switches. This will give you time to learn more and to figure where you want to go.
I think you should consider DCC/sound someday. It's not needed this year--maybe later. The reason is that the sound will be way-cool to a kid. Good news is that a DC layout is VERY easy to convert.
Kids LOVE "accessories". Just look at an old Lionel catalog. These, too, can be added over time.
Ed
Thanks Ed! Too late, the train has left the station :-) But I get your point. High ambitions this year and gonna try to acheive them. LOL.
DCC will probably come into play if we ever have a year round layout. Basically the month of December is train month for me and the boys. With this and a large lionel layout in the basement. then they go away for the year. I have a feeling when my 4 year old is, say, 8 or 10 he may have a desire for a year round layout.
Mike
Water Level Route I did it that way on multiple layouts for at least 15 years. The trick is slow, steady pressure. Don't try to push it in quickly. Being able to get your weight over the nail is key. I can see where trying to do this on a helix would be difficult. Another option (unless this is what you meant by "glue") is caulk. A thin layer should allow for relatively easy relocation of the track later. I've not personally laid track this way, but I'm sure others will chime in. As for feeders, I ask you just what exactly your long term plans are for this? If the track on the modules will be relatively permanent, but you expect to rearrange the modules, then yes, more feeders would ensure good long term electrical conductivity. If you see rearranging all the tracks periodically, I would hold off on lots of feeders initially. A newly put together DC layout should run fine assuming the rail joiners are relatively snug. I would think a pair of feeders per module (maybe two pairs on your largest module) would suffice for a Christmas layout. My second layout as a kid was a 4'x16' laid entirely with brass sectional track, DC powered through a single pair of wires. Had that layout a couple years. I didn't have problems with it. Not saying it's a great long term plan, but for temporary until you figure out what you like, it works.
I did it that way on multiple layouts for at least 15 years. The trick is slow, steady pressure. Don't try to push it in quickly. Being able to get your weight over the nail is key. I can see where trying to do this on a helix would be difficult. Another option (unless this is what you meant by "glue") is caulk. A thin layer should allow for relatively easy relocation of the track later. I've not personally laid track this way, but I'm sure others will chime in. As for feeders, I ask you just what exactly your long term plans are for this? If the track on the modules will be relatively permanent, but you expect to rearrange the modules, then yes, more feeders would ensure good long term electrical conductivity. If you see rearranging all the tracks periodically, I would hold off on lots of feeders initially. A newly put together DC layout should run fine assuming the rail joiners are relatively snug. I would think a pair of feeders per module (maybe two pairs on your largest module) would suffice for a Christmas layout. My second layout as a kid was a 4'x16' laid entirely with brass sectional track, DC powered through a single pair of wires. Had that layout a couple years. I didn't have problems with it. Not saying it's a great long term plan, but for temporary until you figure out what you like, it works.
Sorry my post didnt take.
1) on the caulk. yea did alot of reading and sounds like its easy to remove but dont want to risk it. Since its not a huge layout I'd rather nail/screw. Probably screw them in.
2) on the feeders. Yep so plan is to keep the modules size/location the same. we're restricted by space in our family room and where the tree is. So those should be pretty locked down. The layout on the other hand I see it changing from year to year. For our Lionel Christmas layout in the basement I usually let my boys come up with a layout based on whatever they can dream up. So I'm thinking we'll probably tweak the layout year to year, again within the constraints.
So i like the idea of two feeders per module. All DC.
Water Level Route Good stuff. On the glue I've done alot of reading and so many people say caulk or something similar is easy to pull off. Just not sure I want to risk it. I think I like the idea of nailing, or screwing, in place for easy removal. So long term I defintiely see is modifying the track layout year to year. For our Christmas Lionel set I usually let my boys come up with whatever design they can dream up and then I try to make it happen. Here with this layout were really restricted by the space in our family room and tree location. So the modules sizes/shapes/locations probably wont change, but I see us modifying the layout year to year maybe. So I like your idea about feeder wires 2 per module. Oh and yes all of my track will be brand new Atlas 100 code nickel. Arriving today actually. I'm going to try to be all over keep it and the train wheels clean. Penn Central Hmm so I've read that elsewhere - people pushing nails into the subsurface with pliers. Can you really do that with OSB plywood? I did it that way on multiple layouts for at least 15 years. The trick is slow, steady pressure. Don't try to push it in quickly. Being able to get your weight over the nail is key. I can see where trying to do this on a helix would be difficult. Another option (unless this is what you meant by "glue") is caulk. A thin layer should allow for relatively easy relocation of the track later. I've not personally laid track this way, but I'm sure others will chime in. As for feeders, I ask you just what exactly your long term plans are for this? If the track on the modules will be relatively permanent, but you expect to rearrange the modules, then yes, more feeders would ensure good long term electrical conductivity. If you see rearranging all the tracks periodically, I would hold off on lots of feeders initially. A newly put together DC layout should run fine assuming the rail joiners are relatively snug. I would think a pair of feeders per module (maybe two pairs on your largest module) would suffice for a Christmas layout. My second layout as a kid was a 4'x16' laid entirely with brass sectional track, DC powered through a single pair of wires. Had that layout a couple years. I didn't have problems with it. Not saying it's a great long term plan, but for temporary until you figure out what you like, it works.
Good stuff. On the glue I've done alot of reading and so many people say caulk or something similar is easy to pull off. Just not sure I want to risk it. I think I like the idea of nailing, or screwing, in place for easy removal.
So long term I defintiely see is modifying the track layout year to year. For our Christmas Lionel set I usually let my boys come up with whatever design they can dream up and then I try to make it happen. Here with this layout were really restricted by the space in our family room and tree location. So the modules sizes/shapes/locations probably wont change, but I see us modifying the layout year to year maybe.
So I like your idea about feeder wires 2 per module. Oh and yes all of my track will be brand new Atlas 100 code nickel. Arriving today actually. I'm going to try to be all over keep it and the train wheels clean.
Penn Central Hmm so I've read that elsewhere - people pushing nails into the subsurface with pliers. Can you really do that with OSB plywood?
BigDaddy Temperature and humidity can cause regular benchwork to expand and contract, leading to kinks if you solder all the joints. Don't know how that works on OSB. How are you going to hold the modules in alignment so kids climbing and leaning don't shift modules?
Temperature and humidity can cause regular benchwork to expand and contract, leading to kinks if you solder all the joints. Don't know how that works on OSB.
How are you going to hold the modules in alignment so kids climbing and leaning don't shift modules?
1) on the expanding didnt know that so thanks I wont solder all joints. Just solder bus wiring every 3-6 feet.
2) on holding the modules. I have no idea! I've been thinking about that. Never done modules before. Was thinking of fixing some sort of brace that can pull the sides together with screws.
Penn CentralHmm so I've read that elsewhere - people pushing nails into the subsurface with pliers. Can you really do that with OSB plywood?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy The gold standard is a wire or a solder connection to every piece of track. As this is a Christmas layout and subject to track plan rearrangement, every 6 feet ought to work. I believe the track weathering and ballasting we do to our permanent layouts degrades the electrical function of the rail joiners. If you are looking to change track plans, you probably should skip the ballasting. Avoiding voltage drop is critical in DCC, it is much less so in DC layouts.
The gold standard is a wire or a solder connection to every piece of track. As this is a Christmas layout and subject to track plan rearrangement, every 6 feet ought to work.
I believe the track weathering and ballasting we do to our permanent layouts degrades the electrical function of the rail joiners. If you are looking to change track plans, you probably should skip the ballasting.
Avoiding voltage drop is critical in DCC, it is much less so in DC layouts.
Wow. Ok. I can easily do every 6 feet. Also read somewhere someone said to solder all joints. I know obivously makes it hard to change the track but must make a really good conductivity connection?
Yea not planning on doing any ballasting. And defintiely no DCC for this one (never done it anyway).
So I'll see what the track looks and sounds like (hopefully tomorrow) setup just straight onto plywood with the green felt in between. If it looks good and sounds good I'll probably skip the cork.
RR_Mel I went with OSB for my helix and it was difficult to push the track nails in without damaging ties. The simple fix was to pre-drill the hole with a #65 drill bit in a pin vice. A pair of stubby needle nose pliers or a pair of Xuron Spike Insertion Pliers will make it easier to push in the track nails. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Thank you Mel. I wonder if using tiny screws would be a better idea? Like you said pre-drill slightly smaller holes in track and plywood. Then screw a small screw in my hand/screwdriver?
Water Level RouteFor what it's worth, my first layouts were all built on 1/2" OSB using Atlas track nails. I didn't find that combination difficult to work with at all. I used a simple pair of pliers to push the nails in, but in two steps (half at a time to ensure I didn't bend them). With a little care, it is very easy to prevent overdriving the nails so no damage to the track, and no trouble being able to remove later. OSB isn't that hard.
Hmm so I've read that elsewhere - people pushing nails into the subsurface with pliers. Can you really do that with OSB plywood?
Ok I think its a good idea to run a test. My new track comes in the mail tomorrow. I'll throw down the main oval on top of OSB and the thin green felt cover and see what it sounds like. If it sounds ok I may forgo the cork.
thanks all!
7j43k Small screws = tedious Nails = slightly less tedious, very hard to remove for track relocation without damaging track Tedium = restfully meditative, Grasshopper Sound on plywood? Don't recall from when I did it. But if it's resting on the foam I mentioned, and the void underneath is small, I'd go with it. You might give it a test-try with a loop of track. I recommend the foam because, if you don't use it, the wires underneath the layout will get squished (on a wood floor). And the wood floor might get damaged from the staples. Now, if it's carpet, you can leave the foam off. And the noise should be lessened. Weight: plywood and OSB weigh the same. A 54 x 70 sheet of 3/4 ply/OSB weighs 65 pounds. At 1/2 inch, its 41 pounds. And then there's the "stuff" stuck on it. Hope you're a sturdy lad! Or, better yet, know two of them. Ed
Small screws = tedious
Nails = slightly less tedious, very hard to remove for track relocation without damaging track
Tedium = restfully meditative, Grasshopper
Sound on plywood? Don't recall from when I did it. But if it's resting on the foam I mentioned, and the void underneath is small, I'd go with it. You might give it a test-try with a loop of track.
I recommend the foam because, if you don't use it, the wires underneath the layout will get squished (on a wood floor). And the wood floor might get damaged from the staples. Now, if it's carpet, you can leave the foam off. And the noise should be lessened.
Weight:
plywood and OSB weigh the same. A 54 x 70 sheet of 3/4 ply/OSB weighs 65 pounds. At 1/2 inch, its 41 pounds. And then there's the "stuff" stuck on it.
Hope you're a sturdy lad! Or, better yet, know two of them.
LOL thanks Ed. Yes the floor underneath will be carpet. And I'm quite sturdy no problem taking 4x8 sheets of plywood up and down stairs. Largest size will be a little more than half.
MisterBeasley Yes, foam is for adults, or at least teens who can understand that they can't walk or climb on it. DC will expose wiring faults just as much as DCC. Using only a few feeders and depending on rail joiners for power continuity will get you in trouble with either DC or DCC. This will become more evident as you take apart and reassemble the tracks year after year. Consider proper wiring with a bus and multiple feeders from the start. It's much easier when you can work easily beneath the layout.
Yes, foam is for adults, or at least teens who can understand that they can't walk or climb on it.
DC will expose wiring faults just as much as DCC. Using only a few feeders and depending on rail joiners for power continuity will get you in trouble with either DC or DCC. This will become more evident as you take apart and reassemble the tracks year after year. Consider proper wiring with a bus and multiple feeders from the start. It's much easier when you can work easily beneath the layout.
Ok I can do that. Looking at my layout, how many feeders would you say I'd need to ensure continuous operation? It will all be prewired in the basement. Then disassembled into modules and reassumbled upstairs.
Foam and kids crawling on it isn't going to work. I withdraw the suggestion.
It can't be found in southern California, Florida or other sunbelt states, but is sold in Home Depot and Lowes in 4x8 sheets from 3/4 to 2" thicknesses. It is sturdier than styrefoam, but kids can dent it or knock a chunk out of it.
First, thanks everyone for the feedback. This is really helping me plan.
Billwiz Through the cork into the plywood. Sorry I dont know the nail size, if I find one I'll try to post it later. Love your plan (and size). Been considering upgrading my Christmas layout this year as well.
Through the cork into the plywood. Sorry I dont know the nail size, if I find one I'll try to post it later. Love your plan (and size). Been considering upgrading my Christmas layout this year as well.
Thanks Billwiz. Ok will do nails through to the plywood. I dont mind since its not a huge layout.
Also I shouldve mentioned I will be doing it in pieces, modules so to speak. So I can carry it to/from the basement. Will be 4 pieces. Two rectangles on either end. One is roughly 54" x 70". The other will be a little smaller. Then two long skinny pieces that could be broken even smaller.
MisterBeasley Consider how you will wire this. Are you going to elevate the layout so wires can run underneath? Particle board is very heavy, so keep the sections small. It can absorb water and warp, and may also sag in the middle even if kept dry. Have you considered construction insulating foam instead?
Consider how you will wire this. Are you going to elevate the layout so wires can run underneath?
Particle board is very heavy, so keep the sections small. It can absorb water and warp, and may also sag in the middle even if kept dry. Have you considered construction insulating foam instead?
So yep I was thinking of just running the wires underneath and pinning or stapling them to the bottom of the layout. All done before hand.
Also this is what I meant by OSB plywood:
My plan was to cover either with a thin piece of smooth plywood and/or green felt material that we usually use on our layout under the tree. You know, traditional old style christmas tree layout style :-)
I didnt consider insulating foam -- not sure what that is?
BigDaddy Penn Central I heard homasote is a bear to cut Home Depot wouldn't cut it so I ended up using foam, and not sorry it worked out that way. 2" foam is also a possibility if you live in a section of the US where it is common in the big box stores. "Foam nails" are nothing more than T-pins. The head is ugly, but I will be using them in my module that has the turntable, because I want to remove the turntable for my move. Homasote is not hard to cut; it is a pressed paper or wood product, but it's messy and dusty if you use a saw blade. On my previous layout I used a jigsaw blade that was more like a knife. That wasn't particularly dusty. I've also used track nails directly from the track to foam. They fall out if you look at them sideways, but for a temporary Christmas layout, they were good enough. I don't think I could have used them in the same position for more than a couple of years. Someone mentioned wiring. DCC needs more feeders than DC. Even DC can benefit from more than a single pair of feeders. Ken Patterson is a youtube guy and professional MR photographer. He tunnels his wiring to the front of multiple layers of foam.
Penn Central I heard homasote is a bear to cut
Home Depot wouldn't cut it so I ended up using foam, and not sorry it worked out that way. 2" foam is also a possibility if you live in a section of the US where it is common in the big box stores. "Foam nails" are nothing more than T-pins. The head is ugly, but I will be using them in my module that has the turntable, because I want to remove the turntable for my move.
Homasote is not hard to cut; it is a pressed paper or wood product, but it's messy and dusty if you use a saw blade. On my previous layout I used a jigsaw blade that was more like a knife. That wasn't particularly dusty.
I've also used track nails directly from the track to foam. They fall out if you look at them sideways, but for a temporary Christmas layout, they were good enough. I don't think I could have used them in the same position for more than a couple of years.
Someone mentioned wiring. DCC needs more feeders than DC. Even DC can benefit from more than a single pair of feeders. Ken Patterson is a youtube guy and professional MR photographer. He tunnels his wiring to the front of multiple layers of foam.
So more on the foam. One requirement I have is two young boys will no doubt crawl on it a bit. So I need to keep it simple and sturdy. I like the idea of the foam being smooth and able to take those nails. But can it easily be crushed/crumpled?
7j43k Everyone's got an opinion! I'd use real plywood, probably 1/2". It will be a lot lighter. You can nail the track down, but you will be happier if you pre-drill a smaller hole first. You can also use teeny screws. Pre-drill them, too. I wouldn't use any roadbed unless you use something like Kato Unitrack. I'd just paint underneath the track dark grey. And the rest of the plywood appropriate colors. It's a Christmas layout, after all; not a "real" layout. You'll have the wiring under the plywood, of course. 'Cause above looks really bad. You can create a bit of space for it by using foam weatherstripping tape. The above summarizes what I did to make a rather fancy under-the-tree Lionel layout. Coal loaders that spilled coal all over, and that sort of thing. It lives in the garage, now. No little kids, and it takes a full day or two to get it back up and working. I did make a control panel in one corner. I put the various toggle switches on the flat roof of a building. Looked pretty good. Ed
Everyone's got an opinion!
I'd use real plywood, probably 1/2". It will be a lot lighter.
You can nail the track down, but you will be happier if you pre-drill a smaller hole first. You can also use teeny screws. Pre-drill them, too.
I wouldn't use any roadbed unless you use something like Kato Unitrack. I'd just paint underneath the track dark grey. And the rest of the plywood appropriate colors. It's a Christmas layout, after all; not a "real" layout.
You'll have the wiring under the plywood, of course. 'Cause above looks really bad. You can create a bit of space for it by using foam weatherstripping tape.
The above summarizes what I did to make a rather fancy under-the-tree Lionel layout. Coal loaders that spilled coal all over, and that sort of thing. It lives in the garage, now. No little kids, and it takes a full day or two to get it back up and working.
I did make a control panel in one corner. I put the various toggle switches on the flat roof of a building. Looked pretty good.
Ok so sounds like tiny screws in predrilled holes in the track is the way to go. I like it alot. Tedious but will allow me to make changes.
Yea I get your point about no roadbed. I originally planned on doing that. Two reasons I decided cork
1) sound buffering. I thought maybe the straight plywood would be loud?
2) I've always liked the look and never tried it!
But it would make the job a whole lot simpler. I guess if you dont think it would be too loud. And I would have that thin layer of green felt between the tracks and the plywood.
Oh also real plywood is expensive, thats what I was going with the OSB I already have in the basement. But maybe the long term investment in 1/2" plywood is worth it.
BigDaddy To go under the tree and also be 60'. You think big, I like that. Since it's going around the sofa, I am assuming it's sitting on the floor? Homasote would fit the bill. You could staple the cork to the homosote and nail the track down and everything could be removed and reused. I know you have planned it all out, but what about a modular design, where the yard could be plugged in behind the sofa one year and in front the next, without tearing up any track?
To go under the tree and also be 60'. You think big, I like that.
Since it's going around the sofa, I am assuming it's sitting on the floor?
Homasote would fit the bill. You could staple the cork to the homosote and nail the track down and everything could be removed and reused.
I know you have planned it all out, but what about a modular design, where the yard could be plugged in behind the sofa one year and in front the next, without tearing up any track?
Thanks! So it will be on the floor but on some sturdy plywood. Im thinking 3/4" OSB plywood. I heard homasote is a bear to cut. And as you'll see I need a few pieces.
Here's what I'm thinking for the layout. Goes behind sofa in back and "under" sofa in front, like a tunnel. I will have to put my sofa on 1/2" to 1" risers. Wifes gonna love that. But so will the boys!
Billwiz For my Christmas layouts, I use roadbed track which I glue down, but can easily take up to change for the following year. It may be a better option for temporary layouts. However, you can use small nails to hold the flex and sectional track down. Just dont push in too far to dimple the ties. Use a pair of needle nose pliers to take up. White glue can work as well to hold the track in place for the holidays.
For my Christmas layouts, I use roadbed track which I glue down, but can easily take up to change for the following year. It may be a better option for temporary layouts. However, you can use small nails to hold the flex and sectional track down. Just dont push in too far to dimple the ties. Use a pair of needle nose pliers to take up. White glue can work as well to hold the track in place for the holidays.
Ok. So when I nail the track into the cork roadbed, do I just nail it into the cork or should the nail go all the way through to the plywood base?