I've been working on a somewhat similar idea lately while insulating the metal roof on my helix structure,...
insulating the Helix http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/269136.aspx?page=4 Last couple of days I've been playing with insulation ideas for my helix structure. Things have gone good.I had been toying with several ideas for insulating the alum/steel roof sheets. My contractor friend was saying he had some bubble-wrap type insulation that often gets utilized in metal buildings. I wasn't that enthused with the idea, even though it sounded easy to install. I had scrounged some partial sheets of 2" thick foil-faced foam from a construction job here in St Augustine. At first I thought about how to adhere that foam to the steel roof panels that I am sure can get quite hot in this FL sun. Wait a minute, how about sitting it on the top of my upper circular ring/frame that is surrounded by a 2" thick box extrusions? Dimensions would work out really good,...all 2" thick stuff ! AND I would not have to 'glue' it to the underside of the roof panels,...and I would have an 'air gap' between that sheet metal roof and the foil face of the insulation.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/269136.aspx?page=4
Last couple of days I've been playing with insulation ideas for my helix structure. Things have gone good.I had been toying with several ideas for insulating the alum/steel roof sheets.
My contractor friend was saying he had some bubble-wrap type insulation that often gets utilized in metal buildings. I wasn't that enthused with the idea, even though it sounded easy to install.
I had scrounged some partial sheets of 2" thick foil-faced foam from a construction job here in St Augustine. At first I thought about how to adhere that foam to the steel roof panels that I am sure can get quite hot in this FL sun. Wait a minute, how about sitting it on the top of my upper circular ring/frame that is surrounded by a 2" thick box extrusions? Dimensions would work out really good,...all 2" thick stuff ! AND I would not have to 'glue' it to the underside of the roof panels,...and I would have an 'air gap' between that sheet metal roof and the foil face of the insulation.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
cuyama riogrande5761 Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round. As you know, because of the topography the Bay Area is full of micro-climates. South San Jose summer temps are much higher than a place like San Mateo, for example, despite only being about 30 miles apart -- because we are relatively far from the bay's moderating influence. Davis is hotter still.
riogrande5761 Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round.
As you know, because of the topography the Bay Area is full of micro-climates. South San Jose summer temps are much higher than a place like San Mateo, for example, despite only being about 30 miles apart -- because we are relatively far from the bay's moderating influence. Davis is hotter still.
Yeah, I was mostly thinking of SF proper. San Jose is far enough away thats true. Only been south to Daly City on a field trip for a geology class so am not as well versed on the micro climates but it makes sense.
riogrande5761 How would swamp coolers work in AZ?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Doughless railandsail My thoughts were, how do you insulate against humidity? I think the cost effective way is a dehumidifier, or regular air conditioner whichs I believe acts like one (gotta have a drain pan if not an exit hose out of the house.)
railandsail My thoughts were, how do you insulate against humidity?
I think the cost effective way is a dehumidifier, or regular air conditioner whichs I believe acts like one (gotta have a drain pan if not an exit hose out of the house.)
A dehumidifier is what most people use to remove moisture from the air in rooms, typically basements.
Seems like the product discussed only works in low humidity areas, so that would seem to exclude Florida and Georgia.
Yep, I haven't seen a swamp cooler since I moved to the midwest and east coast. They are only effective in low humidity environments where the endothermic reaction of evaporation can effectively take place, allowing water to rapidly evaporate due to the dry air.
Evaporation is endothermic because water molecules must absorb heat from the surroundings to increase their kinetic energy. One familiar example is sweat, which cools the human body as it evaporates from the skin.
danteYou don't insulate against humidity. You provide a vapor barrier on the warm side of the insulation to reduce the penetration of moisture vapor. Dante
In a generic sense of the word, the concept of insulation is sound since, in effect, the idea is protect against something (be it electricity, cold, heat, even social negative effects the word has been used), so by extension, it is plausible you can protect or "insulate" against moisture. I think we get the idea here without calling it out as an issue of etymology.
cuyama By far, the biggest improvement for me was the insulated garage door. We get a lot of afternoon sun on that exposure. Byron
By far, the biggest improvement for me was the insulated garage door. We get a lot of afternoon sun on that exposure.
Byron
selectorBryon, at my wife's suggestion, we purchased three 8' bamboo rollup blinds, the ones with the string and pulleys we typically find at hardware and home builders's supply stores.
That's a great idea. Wouldn't fly with my co-habitants, but should work well for others with a lot of sun exposure.
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cuyama Here are a couple of quick ideas for model railroading in a garage By far, the biggest improvement for me was the insulated garage door. We get a lot of afternoon sun on that exposure. But our summer days average 84-86 degrees and rarely exceed 100 degrees. As others have noted, for the hottest parts of Arizona, air conditioning of some sort would be needed to make the area livable. Good luck with your move and layout. Byron
Here are a couple of quick ideas for model railroading in a garage
But our summer days average 84-86 degrees and rarely exceed 100 degrees. As others have noted, for the hottest parts of Arizona, air conditioning of some sort would be needed to make the area livable.
Good luck with your move and layout.
Bryon, at my wife's suggestion, we purchased three 8' bamboo rollup blinds, the ones with the string and pulleys we typically find at hardware and home builders's supply stores. I already have the insulated garage doors, and the walls in the new train room are probably near R-20. But, in July and August the sun beats on the smaller yard garage door, the lone window in that room, and on the man door that provided access from the yard previously...still does. So, it's a thin wall solar-wise, and that really makes my air conditioner pull a long day's work if I want to be in there.
We mounted them on boards or window trim so that they hang mostly in the sunlit part of the wall, and so that there is a thermal break. They hang about 1 full inch away from the siding. It happily makes a great difference, a surprising difference. My wife got major props from me for that one.
railandsail RR_Mel I’ve had very good luck with my Bonaire Durango cooler. As long as the outside humidity is low an evap cooler works great. Today it was 104° with 10% humidity and the inside air in the garage was 72°, great for working on my layout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler Mel My thoughts were, how do you insulate against humidity?
RR_Mel I’ve had very good luck with my Bonaire Durango cooler. As long as the outside humidity is low an evap cooler works great. Today it was 104° with 10% humidity and the inside air in the garage was 72°, great for working on my layout. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler Mel
I’ve had very good luck with my Bonaire Durango cooler. As long as the outside humidity is low an evap cooler works great. Today it was 104° with 10% humidity and the inside air in the garage was 72°, great for working on my layout.
I addressed that part with my term 'polyed', but it's unusual to see it that way. We add 'polyvinyl' sheeting over the studs with the insulation sprayed already or the fiberglas bats already place between the studs. The poly is what is known in the industry as a 'vapour barrier', Canadian spelling. The sheets must be taped at their meeting edges, just like one tapes sheets of drywall and then muds. The better the taping, including around wall outlet boxes and around door and window frames, the better you can control the ingress of moisture.
Still, eventually you'll need a dehumidifier when the inevitable happens and the humidity climbs to ambient inside the enclosed space. Fortunately, in such a small and relatively closed-off space, the machine can dry things out in three or four quick 10 minute cycles and then remain on watchful standby for several hours while the humidity level slowly climbs again.
riogrande5761Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round.
riogrande5761How would swamp coolers work in AZ?
Those work like the evaporative units Mel is describing and I think would work OK in most parts of Arizona, except during the summer monsoons (seriously, it's a thing).
riogrande5761 Yeah, I think I only saw one basement in Sacramento ever, so they are very rare. I'd think that limits layouts in CA to garages, outbuildings and attic's mostly. Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round.
Yeah, I think I only saw one basement in Sacramento ever, so they are very rare. I'd think that limits layouts in CA to garages, outbuildings and attic's mostly.
Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round.
I went on an OPSIG layout tour of the San Jose CA area some years ago. EVERY layout (3-4, as I recall) was in a 2 car garage. Here's one:
http://www.yosemitevalleyrr.com/modeling/layout-plans
I've seen a few houses where they built a full room above the two car garage. Hey! You can still park two of your SUV's!
My dream is to buy my neighbor's house and replace it with something more attractive, like a 4000 square foot flat roofed industrial building.
Ed
Doughless Seems like the product discussed only works in low humidity areas, so that would seem to exclude Florida and Georgia.
Correct.
I live in the high desert of Wyoming; the OP is in Arizona; Mel is in central California. Evaporative coolers function very well for us. It was 104 outdoors the other day, 72 indoors.
Another thing about living at 6000 feet with humidity routinely in the 10- to 20 percent range: diurnal temperature drops. I don't get to use diurnal in a sentence very often, so I'm not exactly sure it is the right word. What I mean is 100 degrees during the day drops to 50 degrees at night. The thin, dry air simply cannot hold the heat. All you gotta do is survive until the sun goes down. Similar situation when outside during the bright midday sun: just step into the shade (if there is any). Plus, added bonus: millions of stars at night. If you go in for that kind of stuff.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Byron, the bay area has a pretty mild climate moderated by the ocean year'round. I lived in the Davis/Sacto area for a number of years and was always impressed by how much cooler it was in the bay area in the summers, and probably a little less cold in the winter, although windier.
How would swamp coolers work in AZ? They work in dry conditions well, but I'm not sure if they are more economical or not vs A/C. In Davis where I lived, they were fairly common in some businesses.
You don't insulate against humidity. You provide a vapor barrier on the warm side of the insulation to reduce the penetration of moisture vapor.
Dante
I think that's almost impossible for the average homeowner products. Maybe NASA can do it.
- Douglas
railandsail What is that?
What is that?
RR_Mel I also went with an evaporative window cooler and now I can work year round on my layout.
I also went with an evaporative window cooler and now I can work year round on my layout.
I had 2 garage layouts in fla
They were un airconditioned so it was basically a test and run layout
From nov to april after that all my locos came inside insulate &air condition
selector From my readings on various forums over the years, people who build in garages without finishing the space or finding a way to keep out varmints, and to control humidity and temps, don't find it a very pleasant experience.
From my readings on various forums over the years, people who build in garages without finishing the space or finding a way to keep out varmints, and to control humidity and temps, don't find it a very pleasant experience.
From my readings on various forums over the years, people who build in garages without finishing the space or finding a way to keep out varmints, and to control humidity and temps, don't find it a very pleasant experience. I would only consider building in a garage if I were high, well north, or if the garage were at least part of the space of a greater dwelling and not detached.
It turns out that our double-wide is an out-building, and it was unfinished. Also, it has a double-wide lifting car door on the lane side and a single on the back yard side. My wife insisted I partition the garage for a train room. While I was away one week, she had a friend contractor come in and the two of them framed a 12 X 24 room, added a man door into the greater garage that was left, and then insulated and polyed. I finished the ceiling and walls, and had an electrician install the LED square panels, four of them, plus wall outlets.
Having gone through all that, I can honestly say it's the way to go. Yes, it adds to the expense and takes time, and drywalling is appealing to few except those earning a living doing it. But it's now a heated and air-conditioned space. I have to fill some chinks around that yard single car door because spiders are invading. So far, no mice.
At the very least, if you don't want to give up on anything longer than admiring your work for two minutes between May and October, you'll need to consider a portable upright air conditioner, at least 13K btu, and building a port to vent it.
Northern AZ is actually quite nice temperature wise. Phoenix and south, I honestly don't know how people survive.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I am moving to AZ and the only place I have to build my next model railroad is in the garage. Any insight the feasibility is appreciated.