Feeders & Foam- Reality Check on "getting through"?

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bpickering
I took a picture or two, but wasn't satisfied with brightening it up digitally, so will try again tonight.

Well, I'm still not happy with all the photos- I'll probably have to splurge and get a real digital camera, rather than continuing to use the "Digital Camera" option on the camcorder. The camcorder doesn't have a flash, so I'm having to turn up the contrast WAY high by the last images, and then the image quality seems to be starting to get a little grainy. However... here are photos of the Little Guy with the layout so far:
http://bpickering.members.winisp.net/photoview/Default.aspx?PhotoSet=Trains

(Laugh: on the image with the roadbed being glued down- think I've got enough of the Kalmbach books being used as weights? [:)])

About 90% of the track is laid at this point- I still need to build the detachable staging areas, but I'm putting that behind getting a control panel built for all the remote switches, and getting more decoders installed in the locos so that I can attach the DCC control station. (Yes, I know, I could run the locos on DCC on this Digitrax system, but I'd rather not expose them to the higher voltages. I'll be patient.)

Brian Pickering

[rrinker]

All very sound, and I'll bet it runs great, doesn't it? Nothign worse than having slowdowns and stalls, expecially in the back where it's a bit to reach, or when it happens when you are trying to show off your work to someone. Half the people are probably reading your mesage and thinking, #12 wire for N scale?!?!?! It's NOT overkill - it's sound design practices! Everyone wants to have their layout track plan done with sound practices, why not the wiring as well? Then it will run as good as it looks.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I converted to DCC about a year ago. I am in N scale and have just completed putting a number of drops from the rail (gauge 22 wire) to the buss wires (12 gauge) and found that a long bit (12 inches) works the best. I drill thru and then put the drill in reverse. This makes a clean hole and if I make sure the wire from the track thru the foam is straight I have very little problem pushing it through. I also had a small diameter rod which if I had a problem I poked into the hole if it is not entirely clean. This eliminates having to redrill, which doesn't always clean out the hole and/or removing the bit from the drill. I have put in over 150 drops with speed and less frustration then first encountered. Any investment in a drill bit and small diameter rod is worth it. The reason for so many drops, is smooth running and even power distribution. I have also put the layout into 3 sections, using power distribution systems from Tonys Trains. I also connect the drops to the buss with 3M connectors.

Rad Jones

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3155944

I have used the drill and tube method. Get a small piece of brass tubing that will just fit over the wire. drill a hole the size of the tube, then pu***he tube thruogh the hole and then pu***he wire up through the tube . when the wire is through pull the tube out

[Anonymous]

I have used the drill and tube method. Get a small piece of brass tubing that will just fit over the wire. drill a hole the size of the tube, then pu***he tube thruogh the hole and then pu***he wire up through the tube . when the wire is through pull the tube out

[Anonymous]

While adding extra feeders is a good thing. I don't believe that is your problem. Sounds more like dirty track to me.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

Randy,

By installing feeders every three feet even though you are able to run your trains over 30 feet without such feeders you are defeating one of the major joys of model railroading. Your so-called advanced planning means it is highly unlikely that you will have a dead section of track sometime in the future which will require you to determine the cause of the dead section and then installing feeders, but only after scratching away ballast, ruining foam scenery with the dropped soldering iron, breaking off a highly detailed sectin of a nearby structure and banging your head while fishing the wire out of the bottom of your layout. How can you in good faith break the rule of "there's never enough time to do it right the first time, but always enough time to do it again?"

Me thinks you might be a heretic.

LOL

Oh, I'm a heretic all right, I'm using Atlas turnouts and flex track, and I LIKE the stuff! [:D][:D][:D]

[bpickering]

Well, worked through this all last night, and celebrated with a "First Train". :-) (Although not before the co-engineer's bedtime... gotta make that up to him tonight.) I took a picture or two, but wasn't satisfied with brightening it up digitally, so will try again tonight.

I ended up going with the 3/16" holes, even though they are a little large for my tastes. I drilled through the roadbed, foam, then plywood, with perhaps 1/8" to spare on the length of the bit. Assuming I don't see any problems in the next couple weeks, I'll go ahead and plug them as originally considered using the caulk.

I'm not going all the way to feeders every third track, but three on this 4'x5' portable layout should suffice. I'm going to spend some more time perfecting my track soldering skills to ensure that, as well as having replaced most of the rail joiners during construction. For the main bus, I'm using #14, and for the feeders I'm using #26 salvaged from a bad Cat-5 Ethernet cable. With all the re-used materials, I'm toying with calling the layout something like, "Baling Wire and Duct Tape Lines". :-)

Next steps (in approximate order):

• cut some more roadbed for the "switchyard" portion, and lay the track


• use cardboard shims to bring the "industrial" sidings down to foam-level, followed by laying this track using Elmers' acrylic caulk


• get the attachable "Staging yards" built over the next couple of weeks


• wire the switch motors


• build a control panel


• mount the new DCC control station to replace good 'ol fashioned DC


• enjoy my "masterpiece" for a while

Brian Pickering

[Anonymous]

Randy,

By installing feeders every three feet even though you are able to run your trains over 30 feet without such feeders you are defeating one of the major joys of model railroading. Your so-called advanced planning means it is highly unlikely that you will have a dead section of track sometime in the future which will require you to determine the cause of the dead section and then installing feeders, but only after scratching away ballast, ruining foam scenery with the dropped soldering iron, breaking off a highly detailed sectin of a nearby structure and banging your head while fishing the wire out of the bottom of your layout. How can you in good faith break the rule of "there's never enough time to do it right the first time, but always enough time to do it again?"

Me thinks you might be a heretic.

LOL

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wmlurgan

I still use alot of old brass track. Everything runs fine. I placed feeder wires every two feet and have no power problems. I am using two inch foam which is alot thicker in some areas, and to make holes for the wires I just ran a coat hanger down through the foam a few times. The foam is on my frame work with cross pieces of one inch wood every few feet. I don't have any plywood under it.

Send some of your trains up my way, since most of the Reading Crossline trains originated on the WM, interchanged at Lurgan. [:D]

You're building yours the same way I did mine, I find the 2" foam on a basic 1x wood frame is PLENTY strong without the plywood. Saves money, too, plywood ain't cheap, at least not decent stuff.

While I am using nickel silver rail, since I don't have any leftover stocks of brass track, one thing to remember is the brass is actually a BETTER conductor of electricity. It's just that when brass oxidizes, it doesn't conduct, whereas nickel silver still does. Easy solution, run more trains! I don't know that you need feeders every 2 feet, I thought I was a bit on the overkill side with feeders to each piece of flex track, basically every 3 feet. They key is tight fresh rail joiners, DON'T keep reusing the same ones over and over again. I haven't completed even one loop yet so I just attached one set of feeders with clip leads and - over 30 feet of track, including 3 turnouts with unpowered frogs, I get NO hesitation or stalling whatsoever! Regardless, I'm STILL going to hook up ALL the feeders, no sense taking chances and having something fail later, plus I installed them all already.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I use a 4-40 rod (available most hobby shops, particularly ones that specialize in RC aircraft), cut about 12" long and sharpened with a file. Use it as a bit in my power drill. Goes through 2" foam and 1/2" ply no problem. I use 20 gauge feeders to 14g bus. Works like a charm. Good luck!

John
Austin, Texas

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Oh, I'm sure it would work... through the foam. However, I would still have the plywood underlayer to get through, and would need the same length drill to get to it anyway, or trust in aligning a hole drilled from the underside with the hole heated from the top.

I'll consider using the long bit I've got, but a 3/8" bit is really overkill. I guess I'm a little bit over-cautious, but I'll probably invest in a smaller bit that will do the just "just right."

Brian

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I meant was, drill a, say, 3/8" hole from the underside that would only be as deep as the plywood underlayer. Then from the top, pu***he hot wire thru the foam, and thru then 3/8" hole in the plywood. You'd have a small hole on the top, and a bigger hole on the bottom.

John

[Anonymous]

I still use alot of old brass track. Everything runs fine. I placed feeder wires every two feet and have no power problems. I am using two inch foam which is alot thicker in some areas, and to make holes for the wires I just ran a coat hanger down through the foam a few times. The foam is on my frame work with cross pieces of one inch wood every few feet. I don't have any plywood under it.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: ...between the 2" foam and the underlying plywood (not to mention the roadbed), the thinnest drill I have that will go all the way through will be a 3/16", .....So, what I'm thinking of is drilling the 3/16" .... running the wire through, and plugging with caulk .... I'll scenic (whether ballast or ground cover, as appropriate) right over the caulk-filled hole. So, after all that, my basic question is, am I on the right "track"?

Personally, I don't see a problem with your original plan. You apparently already have a 3/16" drill bit long enough. I don't think that's too big a hole, and I think your plan to plug the hole (after running the wire) with caulk (I use lightweight spackle compound for something similar) and cover with ground cover will do the trick.

QUOTE: I was sorta hoping people had a solution that didn't involve more investment.

Seems to me you already figured it out yourself.


Regards

Ed

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnhaas

I've given this subject some thought and was wondering if a "hot wire" might work to "drill" thru the foam.

Oh, I'm sure it would work... through the foam. However, I would still have the plywood underlayer to get through, and would need the same length drill to get to it anyway, or trust in aligning a hole drilled from the underside with the hole heated from the top.

I'll consider using the long bit I've got, but a 3/8" bit is really overkill. I guess I'm a little bit over-cautious, but I'll probably invest in a smaller bit that will do the just "just right."

Brian

[mrgstrain]

Glad to hear someone else useing there old brass track. Iam also useing my old brass track (1 for lack of $ no investment, 2 useing my railroad for therapy- check my profile) you mentioned in your post that you had a bite that would go all the way through then no investment needed for a new one, as another one said just put a paper wade in the hole add ballast or ground foam wright over it. No more hole.
Larry

[Anonymous]

I've given this subject some thought and was wondering if a "hot wire" might work to "drill" thru the foam. Those hot wire cutters slice right thru the stuff, so I was thinking that taking a solid wire, or small diameter rod, heating it with a lighter or match, and applying the hot end to the foam might cause it to go right thru the foam. You could even attach the feeder wire to the trailing end, and feed it thru.

You'd have to drill a larger diameter whole thru the plywood on the bottom and hope you "hit your target" with the hot wire.

This would be more work than drilling thru all layers with a long bit, but if you wanted a really small diameter hole - it might be an option.

I've never tried this, but the time is coming soon where I'll need holes for feeders, so I might give it a try then.

Hope this helps,

John

[bpickering]

I'm certainly familiar with the long drill bits- I've got a 3/8" that I've used drilling through the outside wall of the house when wiring up the phone/DSL. I guess I'll try to stop by Home Depot on the way home one of these days, Real Soon Now, to get a smaller diameter long drill. I was sorta hoping people had a solution that didn't involve more investment. [:)] (Not that more tools is necessarily >bad<, just that I've spent a fair amount pre-Christmas!)

At least I don't need to worry about the order in which to drill the feeders- this layout is the "luggable" layout I'm building >for the moment<. It's only a single layer.[:D] Likewise, I wanted sturdiness/rigidity so I can take up the layout a) when guests are going to be around, or b) when the co-engineer has been a bad boy, so I definitely want the added rigidity of the plywood.

Brian Pickering

[orsonroy]

I use one of the 12" long 1/8" drillbits, and it works just fine to get through my 2.25" of foam and 1/4" of plywood. Just be sure to drilll the feeder holes for the lower levels BEFORE you install any upper decks!

[foxtrackin]

I run 18 gauge wire feeders to my layout and I use a 3/16 bit to drill the holes. I do not use foam but I have no problems filling the holes around the wire. I just plug the holes with a small paper wad. Then when I ballast the track it covers the hole and you can't see it. It mades running the wire thru the plywood a breeze.

[rrinker]

An advantage I guess of NOT having plywood under the foam - I just grabbed the closest size drill to my feeder wires (#20) from my drill case and was off. If I poke it ALL the way through I have to use pliers to pull it out, but I only push it throught he foam as far as I can (no drill, just he bit and my fingers), the wire is stiff enough to poke that last little bit out the bottom. I suppose I COULD cut up a coat hanger to make a 'long' bit but that would require more effort. [:D]

[Anonymous]

[#ditto]
I went and bought a 12" 1/8" dril bit and trimmed it to about 6" with some bolt cutters.
Reed

[cacole]

Most hardware stores sell drill bits that are up to 1 foot long. If you need to drill several holes, it might be simpler to just buy one of these bits. They come in sizes down to 1/16"

[bpickering]

Hiya!

Well, with the long weekend, I was able to put in some time putting down roadbed and track on the very basic "luggable" layout for my son and I. So far, consists of just a double-oval, but I've got turnouts laid for the staging and siding/yard tracks, so hopefully can continue to make progress in the coming weeks.

Decided to hook it up with alligator clips, just to get a first feel for how things will work. Pretty smooth within the area connected to the leads, but I was surprised to find that the loco wouldn't move past a couple of the switches. Moves past the Atlas snap switches just fine, but a pair of OLD Tyco switches don't appear to do any power routing at all- the moment the loco moves past the frog, in either direction, it stops. I thought it might be poor connections at first (since this is somewhat a low-budget "practice" layout, both to entertain the 3.5-year-old "co-engineer", and to rebuild my skills after 20 years away, I'm using my old brass track saved from my teenage layout.) Cleaning didn't help, though, and some checking with the VOM confirmed my thoughts above. Odd, but OK, I've already decided to work with what I've got as far as I can. [:)]

SO... I'll need additional feeders a little earlier than I had thought, and therin lies the rub. I checked, and between the 2" foam and the underlying plywood (not to mention the roadbed), the thinnest drill I have that will go all the way through will be a 3/16", which sounds like a rather large hole to cover up with just ballast & glue. In addition, when I add wiring for the turnout motors (on the principle of K.I.S.S., remembering the clientele, I'm building for reliability & fixability rather than fine-scale, so I'm using the Atlas surface-mount dual-coil motors), I'll also be running three-conductor wire through, and can hardly see getting the ribbon through anything much smaller.

So, what I'm thinking of is drilling the 3/16" (or even 1/4") hole, running the wire through, and plugging with caulk after I've smoke-tested the trains (that is, tested to make sure I'm not letting out any smoke, after all, it's the smoke that makes things work, right?! [:D]). I'll scenic (whether ballast or ground cover, as appropriate) right over the caulk-filled hole.

So, after all that, my basic question is, am I on the right "track"? How do others address the problem of running feeders through foam? I considered just running them over the top of the foam, with drywall tape or some-such over them, but decided that that violates the principle of K.I.S.S., esp. if it comes to troubleshooting wiring.

Brian Pickering