Ballasting is not hard but it can get tedious. The biggest proble I ran into was getting rid of excess loose particles once I was done and that is where a Christmas present from the wife of a dustbuster came in handy. After all can’t have complaints of loose ballast getting tracked into other parts of the house.
Joe Staten Island West
It required 17 man hours, to remove the very well glued down excess ballast between the rails.
Yep! Been there already with our portable layout. In fact, we may be well past the 17 hour mark and we still can't get trains to stay on the track in the yard.
please DO keep a VERY close eye on things, Dave.
I plan on only allowing people to do one part of the task at a time and only over short distances. In other words, don't apply any glue until we have a look at how well the ballast has been distributed. Do apply the ballast over short lengths until I agree that you have the process down pat.
We have about 330' of mainline and about 290' of secondary track to ballast. That is a lot of track to ask just one or two people to do.
Overall, we have not had too many issues with people charging ahead blindly and creating problems. The less experienced guys are asking what they can do next and so far they have been following instructions pretty well. We have only had to adjust about four feet of track where it wasn't as straight as it should have been, and even that probably wouldn't have caused any problems if we had left it alone. There was a tendency to be a little skimpy with the glue when we first started laying cork, but it didn't take long to correct that. One set of track feeders got installed backwards, but the buzzer let us know as soon as they tried to apply power.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter We will have to constantly look over peoples' shoulders
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Dave, it's my opinion that the two best bang-for-your-buck tasks in model railroading are painting the rails and ballasting.A lot of folks seem to feel that this is boring work and many of them put it off to "do later". Once you know the tricks of getting those jobs done, you simply need to just do it! It's not a race...if you work at your own pace, and quit when you've had enough for a session, it won't overwhelm you, and when you see how much it improves the appearance and realism, you'll be encouraged to carry on.
I have only 55' or 60' of mainline left to ballast, with a little over half of that needing the plaster-on-screen landforms to be added alongside the track - just haven't had time to do that yet.
Wayne
doctorwayne you'll want people working on them who are capable of such care.
Hi Wayne:
I think most people would agree that the people who work on any aspect of the layout have to be capable of exercising care, regardless of the work involved. Therein lies the conundrum for those of us who choose to manage the club. Henk and I agreed to try to run the club for the benefit of all the members. One of our stated goals when we ran for office was to teach people how to do things that they didn't have any experience with, and teach them to do it well.
We have compromised that goal a bit already by only having a couple of members laying track. We have justified that decision by saying that proper track installation is so crucial to the performance of the layout that we are not willing to let members go at it willy nilly. The same is not quite so true of ballast installation. Yes, turnouts have to be treated with great care, but our (the Executive's) position is that general track ballasting is where we can get a bunch of members involved. Same with scenery. Those of us in charge, i.e. the President and the Vice President/foreman of construction (who happens to be me) will have to play a very active roll in helping people learn how to do the tasks, and in monitering their progress. We will have to constantly look over peoples' shoulders. As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly what I agreed to when I put my name forward to be the club V.P. Some work will not be up to standards. So what? We will take the person who's work does not meet the club requirements and teach them how to do it again properly.
I find an oral syringe (the type used to give babies/pets medicine) works better than an eye dropper, which can leave "craters" in your ballast.
I dont know, DrWayne, seems an awfully long length of track to wet and glue in one foul swoop. I would not tackle anything that long. On the other hand I agree with your observation regarding turnout ballasting. Do them separately and more deliberately.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I think that the most involved part of ballasting is the grooming. Spreading it along the track is easy, as is the misting/pre-wetting, and the glue application goes as quickly as you can move along the track.I did this area, from around where the camera was placed to the beginning of the bridge, as one job....
...although it was spread over a couple of days, partly because of the grooming and partly because of the need to contain the depth of ballast and sub-ballast/fill needed here...
Prior to that, this area (photographed with the camera in about the same place as the first photo, but turned around) up to the turnouts in the distance, was done in one session, started one evening and finished by about 4:30 the following morning. The distance is just over 10'...
For this area, across the aisle from the previous photo, the ballast was spread and groomed in about the same sort of time period. The ballasting stretched from a couple feet behind the camera to beyond the glue jugs in the distance...
...and include a portion of this track near the backdrop, an interchange with another railroad...
(the rest of it will remain unballasted, as it will be hidden by a view block, with the remainder of it in my workshop, accessed through a hole in the wall). Total length of this stretch is about 11' of double track, plus the interchange and part of an industrial spur. The next evening, I applied the wetting agent and glue in about an hour and a half. I'm not sure if a club layout has the luxury of doing part of the job one day, and finishing it at a later occasion. I often ballast turnouts separate from the tracks to which they're connected, and since they require a bit more care than just plain track, you'll want people working on them who are capable of such care.
Dave,
Ballasting isn't difficult. If you follow the good advice given here by Wayne and others, it should be pretty straight ahead.
I would have the club designate a couple of interested parties as the ballasters and only let them do the ballasting. While not difficult, it is a skill and definately takes some practice. Having a couple members develop and refine those skills might yield better results than trying to set the standards and have random members applying them with varying degrees of success.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
drgwcs I think the key is to use a sprayer that uses a fine spray. With that it doesn't need a wetting agent.
I think the key is to use a sprayer that uses a fine spray. With that it doesn't need a wetting agent.
I have never heard of anyone who didn't use a wetting agent and didn't have problems.
Ballasting is boring, so I approach it as an excercise in zen. Put on some music, have a beverage at hand, make sure the wetting agent, grooming implements and the glue are right there and go for it.
bearmanDave, another reason for that problem with your layout ballast is a corollary to DrWayne's observation, someone may have attempted to ballast too long a length of track. I generally don't do more than 12 inches at a time.
OK, that's definitely something to consider. It would certainly be easier to focus on how much glue you have put down if you are only doing 12" at a time as opposed to three feet.
Thanks
Dave, another reason for that problem with your layout ballast is a corollary to DrWayne's observation, someone may have attempted to ballast too long a length of track. I generally don't do more than 12 inches at a time.
There have been some comments about Woodland Scenics Scenic Cement. The last layout I did was several years ago and I used a white glue mix etc and hated it. This one I am using the Scenic cement and I love it. I think the key is to use a sprayer that uses a fine spray. With that it doesn't need a wetting agent. I had one that didnt spray as fine and had issues. Went back to the other one even though it had a drip.
Thanks again everyone for all your input.
doctorwayneThose results are caused by insufficient pre-wetting, or, if you used alcohol as a wetting agent, it may have evapourated before you got around to adding the glue. The water should be in quantities sufficient to penetrate completely through the ballast, enough so that it will seep from the lowest point. When the glue is applied, it should also be in sufficient amounts to penetrate right to the bottom of the ballast, and like the water, collect alongside the right-of-way. Wayne
Yes, that is exactly what happened. I blame it on too many people with not enough experience working on the layout. The ballast glue question came up as a result of us having to rip up some track on our portable layout, but we are already discussing how to avoid the same thing happening when we start to ballast the new permanent layout. We will have to watch the work very carefully. Despite my lack of experience, the areas that I ballasted seem to be ok.
bearmanAs far as the glue/water ratio, it is all over the place anywhere from 1:2 to 1:5. This comes down to a personal preference thing.
.
I have found using Mod Podge or Elmers White Glue are best thinner. Using glues thinned less than 3:1 with water, even with a wetting agent, makes the glue penetrate the scenery less.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
hon30critter Hi folks: What ratio do you use for glue/water/alcohol (or other formula) for gluing down ballast? Thanks Dave
Hi folks:
What ratio do you use for glue/water/alcohol (or other formula) for gluing down ballast?
I don't precisely measure out my proportions, but it's roughly 55-60% white or carpenters glue to 40-45% water, with a squirt of dishwashing soap added to break the tension. It has always worked perfectly despite the varying proportions. The important thing is to thoroughly soak it with water to avoid getting only a crust.
Alan
Bubbytrains
Mark R. I remember as a youngster, my Dad would mix powdered wood glue in with the ballast. He added enough so it was easily visible once the ballast / glue was shaken together. You could see the powder coating the ballast. The ballast was groomed to his liking. then just misted with water. The water activated the powdered glue and it bonded really well. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the glue was (that was 50 years ago), but I'm sure there are still powdered wood wood glues out there. Mark.
I remember as a youngster, my Dad would mix powdered wood glue in with the ballast. He added enough so it was easily visible once the ballast / glue was shaken together. You could see the powder coating the ballast. The ballast was groomed to his liking. then just misted with water. The water activated the powdered glue and it bonded really well.
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the glue was (that was 50 years ago), but I'm sure there are still powdered wood wood glues out there.
Mark.
Mark, my brother and I used that method circa 1980. The brand we used was called Weldwood. It worked well, and set up extremely hard!
hon30critter....We have discovered several spots on our portable layout where only the top of the ballast was glued together despite copious quantities of diluted glue having been applied....
Those results are caused by insufficient pre-wetting, or, if you used alcohol as a wetting agent, it may have evapourated before you got around to adding the glue. The water should be in quantities sufficient to penetrate completely through the ballast, enough so that it will seep from the lowest point. When the glue is applied, it should also be in sufficient amounts to penetrate right to the bottom of the ballast, and like the water, collect alongside the right-of-way.
bearmanOne more thing, Dave. As far as the glue/water ratio, it is all over the place anywhere from 1:2 to 1:5. This comes down to a personal preference thing.
I think it really boils down to using a formula that will easily soak into all of the ballast, no matter how deep. I think that thinner is better (within reason). We have discovered several spots on our portable layout where only the top of the ballast was glued together despite copious quantities of diluted glue having been applied.
FWIW, I just ordered some 8 oz. condiment dispencer bottles from Amazon like the one that doctorwayne showed. Up until now we have been using a rather larger pressurized spray bottle. Getting just a dribble of glue out of it is very difficult, and too much pressure on the trigger washes the ballast away instantly.
Thanks again Bear.
One more thing, Dave. As far as the glue/water ratio, it is all over the place anywhere from 1:2 to 1:5. This comes down to a personal preference thing.
Thanks for the additional advice Bear.
I do the beveled edges, and the outside of the rails, first by running a finger of undiluted white glue along it then add the ballast groom it, wait a few minutes then apply the 70% alcohol. If you want a nice straight line along the bottom of the ballast, then there are two techniques you can use as long as there is no scenery involved.
The first is to tape some blue masking tape along the bottom, the second is to sacrifice some cork roadbed and tack it down with pins. I use map pins about every inch or so. After you apply the glue:water mixture some of it will seep under the tape or the cork. Just wait about thirty minutes or so and you can easily remove the tape or the cork leaving a fairly clean line behind without tearing out the ballast on the dbeveled edge of the roadbed. There may be a few places where some touch up may be needed but usually it is not a big deal.
Marlon and Bear:
More great ideas! Thanks.
Now the question is which method(s) to try. I think I will encourage the club to do a few tests before committing to one specific formula. Personally, I kind of like Randy's glue/alcohol mixture because I think it would soak in the best, and having the glue not set rock hard appeals to me too. Then there is Cody Grivno's method of gluing the outside edges of the ballast first. I will definitely get a couple of brushes like those that doctorwayne uses for spreading and levelling the ballast, and a couple of condiment dispenser style bottles too.
I had another look at the Homasote bevelling that we have done and I think the Homasote needs to be cut back further so that the slope of the Homasote lines up with the slope of the cork roadbed. Right now there is a bit of a step where the cork meets the Homasote. Fortunately, the Homasote seems to be fairly easy to cut with a sharp blade so making the adjustment shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I use 1:3/glue:water mixture with a couple of drops of liquid detergent. Generally I mix up a batch then transfer as necessary to a smaller used white glue squeeze bottle. My ballast is an Arizona Rock & Mineral product, real rock like DocWayne's.
I use 70% rubbing alcohol as a wetting agent and then drizzle the glue/water mixture with the squeeze bottle top set to allow as small a stream as possible when I apply it. So far, similar to DocWayne. However, for turnouts I found this gizmo
https://imgur.com/PGWZ3BB
at an art supply store. It is a plastic squeeze bottle, maybe 2 ounce volume, with a metal nozzle about 2 mm diameter (manufacturer unknown by now) which allows you to apply one drop at a time to the ballast in between the ties of the turnout, and on either side of the points. With this gizmo, I have never had an issue with gluing turnout hinges. But, you need to be patient. Total cost of the gizmo is less than 5$.
To prevent clogging the gizmo nozzle, just run some 90% rubbing alcohol through the gizmo a couple or three times, and run a map pin into the nozzle once or twice, and voila, completely clean. I don't know about anyone else, but I have found that art supply stores can be an invaluable source of items that are necessary to work on a layout.
I mix my diluted glue mixture 70/30 with a few drops of dishwashing detergent added to a gallon of distilled water. I use translucent condiment dispensers that diners use for applying. (They're cheap at WalMart). I drop a large fishing weight to the bottle to remix the glue mixture. It acts like a spray paint can rattle ball to remix the glue; the glue mixture tends to separate and settle, with the glue on the bottom.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Hello all,
BigDaddyI think that was my link...
Yes, you were definitely part of the conversation.
After reviewing the links in the thread I wonder if the "manufacturer" of Instant Track Tackit Ballast Adhesive was contacted by DAP or if people just figured out there was a cheaper source? Like I did.
For me it's still the best ballast method I've used.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"