railandsailMake sure you title it properly so we remember to look for it.
He already started it Brian, look for his thread: "Photo Backdrops vs other options."
Mike.
My You Tube
PED I am now focused on photo backdrops and other similar stuff. I will be posting a seperate thread asking question about that type of material.
I am now focused on photo backdrops and other similar stuff. I will be posting a seperate thread asking question about that type of material.
Make sure you title it properly so we remember to look for it.
I'm interested in the subject as well.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I made a decision on the painted backdrops by a local artist. I will not go that route. In the end, I was not convinced that an artist could render the city building and industrial sites to a level of detail that I was confortable with. I know the clouds, hills, trees and other natural features would not be a problem but I was not satisfied that the details on man made stuff would make me happy.
Thanks for all the comments.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
As the OP, I considered all your answers. I found an artist on craigslist that sold small painting and offered to paint anything you wanted. I contacted her and after exchanging some info on what I wanted, she estimated $150-$200 total to paint my 2 ft x 40 ft backdrop. I did not think that was bad. Less than half the cost of commercial backdrops to cover same area.
She lives almost 3 hours away from me so she would paint the backdrop in sections (like wallpaper) but not sure yet what medium she might use. The challange is that my layout is in an area that is subject to temperature and humidity extreemes. Need to resolve that issue to my satisfaction before moving forward.
Another issue is how well she can represent city scapes and industrial areas on a backdrop. To me, landscale background with trees, hills, rocks and clouds should be very easy for an artist. However, I would expect that the details in a city or industrial scene would be much more challanging and difficult to render in an acceptable way (backdrop vs framed painting). I still have to work this issue with her. I have seen some of her work but none of it would be comparable to a city or industrial scene.
In case others are interested doing something like this, I will report on how this worked out. Right now, my gut tells me she will not be able to render the city/industrial scenes to my liking.
Side note - I am still considering some of the commercial photo backdrops but I have made some disturbing discoveries about them. I will save that info for a different thread.
Doughless New houses are piled on one another these days, and homeowners think they have to fill the yard with a bunch of foliage to screen out the neighboring houses.
What makes a big difference is just a few trees or shrubs. When there is somehting in between you and the neighbors house, it give the eye something to catch which in turn pushes the neighboring house into the background making it look farther away.
Having said that, I like a simple pale light blue backdrop to focus the eye on the trains, with only low relief hazy hills to represent some distance.
That goes a long way to help complete a scene!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Drumguy yup, they are definitely subjective. For some people, a flat blue color punches the ticket just fine. Others want or even require photorealism. I want some energy in a few choice spots. Eventually that storm cloud will be brewing over a mountain/valley with about 5 vertical feet from valley floor to mountain top. That will substantially diminish the visual impact of the storm clouds. In the photo, with no scenery yet, there’s nothing else to look at, so it’s all your eyes see.
yup, they are definitely subjective. For some people, a flat blue color punches the ticket just fine. Others want or even require photorealism. I want some energy in a few choice spots. Eventually that storm cloud will be brewing over a mountain/valley with about 5 vertical feet from valley floor to mountain top. That will substantially diminish the visual impact of the storm clouds. In the photo, with no scenery yet, there’s nothing else to look at, so it’s all your eyes see.
I get it. Its much the same as home yard landscaping. New houses are piled on one another these days, and homeowners think they have to fill the yard with a bunch of foliage to screen out the neighboring houses. What makes a big difference is just a few trees or shrubs. When there is somehting in between you and the neighbors house, it give the eye something to catch which in turn pushes the neighboring house into the background making it look farther away.
Not exactly the same concept, but the eye needs many things to look at in order to not focus solely on one thing.
Having said that, I like a simple pale light blue backdrop to focus the eye on the trains, with only low relief hazy hills to represent some distance. There will be a river and hill seen on my next layout and I'll probably use photo backdrops there in order to give depth to an area one would expect to see detail close up. The rest of the layout will have the low hazy humps representing hills in the distance.
- Douglas
Flat blue is really just a start, a basic thing to have in place on which other things can be added, such as clouds or hopefully a scene of landscape or city scape. The energy I get from the cloud scene gives me the "feeling" I need to seek shelter! j/k
riogrande5761 Yes, that cloud backdrop is not my cup of tea. To me it really dominates the view with a forboading, "storm is brewing", type of feeling. It appears back drops can often be not just a quality thing, but a personal thing.
Yes, that cloud backdrop is not my cup of tea. To me it really dominates the view with a forboading, "storm is brewing", type of feeling. It appears back drops can often be not just a quality thing, but a personal thing.
No need to hire anyone for a backdrop. Are you wanting to focus attention on the trains or the backdrop? The choice is natural and you want to draw the eye to what's moving. Focusing on the still stuff is crazy since most of the money should get focused on the train, scenery, and structures. These matter far more than the backdrop.
wjstix In "the olden days" (like the 1990's), one method of doing a backdrop was to find a scene you liked and take some color slides of it. Then in the layout room, you could project the slide image onto your backdrop, and use the photo as a template for painting the backdrop scenery.
In "the olden days" (like the 1990's), one method of doing a backdrop was to find a scene you liked and take some color slides of it. Then in the layout room, you could project the slide image onto your backdrop, and use the photo as a template for painting the backdrop scenery.
I do the same thing, but with a projector hooked up to the USB stick..
It's really good for getting the scale right before the painting begins.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
railandsailBut in the meantime I need to paint the interior walls of my train shed some sort of sky blue,....any recommemdations for a stock color blue?
When it came to painting, I took color strips from my local Lowes or Home Depot and went outside and compared them to the real sky, which does vary from horizon (lighter) to straight up over head (deepest blue).
On my last layout I went with Valspar Clear Blue Sky paint:
http://m.valsparpaint.com/color-detail.php?id=2018&g=1012
Here are a couple of photos as a visual aid:
Some go with a darker blue but since sky nearer to the horzon is typically lighter - which is usually what you would see above the rail scenes for the first 2 or 3+ feet , and nin many cases hazier, it makes more sense to go with a light shade of blue and then you can do clouds or haze over it.
Interesting conversations. I'll have to come back to this subject when i get closer to needing a backdrop.
But in the meantime I need to paint the interior walls of my train shed some sort of sky blue,....any recommemdations for a stock color blue?
Some further further considerations/thouguts:
What do you want your backdrop to accomplish? If you want to do closeup photography, you probably need a photo backdrop or professional painter. My backdrop would fail miserably on Pelle’s layout!
If you need it to extend industrial or city scenes, you might want more realism.
if you are just trying to make a framing reference for your layout, anything from a solid blue color to a very detailed painting would fit the bill. This is all personal preference.
And Mike is right: we’ve all become artists in one form or another while pursuing this hobby. So don’t sell yourself short. If you’ve never painted anything, give it a try. Worst case scenario you get some more white paint and paint over it!
Heres my take on the biggest mistakes made when painting a backdrop (this refers to skies and landscapes):
MRVP has some great videos on doing backdrops. I believe they were in Rehab My Railroad Season (the one where they did the station and grade crossing), and Olympia Logging (both seasons). The distant tree thing looks pretty straight-forward.
I may not have worded the first paragraph of my post too well. What I meant is that I can paint nearly photographically if choose to, but for my tastes, thats not the right thing to do on my railroad. This pic shows a bit of my backdrop. Its very loose, and has some energy, but won't dominate the view when the rest of the scenery is built.
There are some soft spots around the room, and area where a bit of a storm is brewing, basically it has some variety as you pan around. But not too much.
Not everyones cup of tea, but I painted the entire room in about 90 minutes using 2 shades of blue, white, three 9" paint rollers and 4" and 1" junk brushes from Wally World.
Drumguy I’m perfectly capable of painting a near photo realistic backdrop. But it’s the last thing I’d ever do. Personally I hate photo backdrops.
I’m perfectly capable of painting a near photo realistic backdrop. But it’s the last thing I’d ever do. Personally I hate photo backdrops.
I'm confused. You say you are capable of painting excellent backdrops but it's the last thing you would ever do, yet you also hate photo back drops. Whats left?Now I have to say Rob Spangler paints photorealistic back drops (paint, not photos) and his layout is IMO, near the pinacle of home layout realism. The foreground and background fit together very well creating a homogenius scene and one doesn't seem to be a much higher bar of realism over the other.
As far as photo backgrounds, have you seen the Onondaga Cut-off layout? It uses photographs for back grounds, and it fits very well too.
They set the bar too high for the rest of your modeling. And I don’t mean that in any condescending way to those who use photo backdrops nor anyone’s modeling skill. Bottom line: photos behind the trains, everything in front and in between better stack up to that level of detail.
There is no perfect world, but both have been demonstrated to be very effective when integrated into the layout well.
I've seen layouts with cartoonish backdrops too, and those detract even more than the high bar of photo backdrops. IMHO, the goal is to get a back drop which blends in and comliments the scene. It's not always an easy combination. And lets face it, it depends on ones resources and skills. It's one thing to say photo backdrops are aweful, even when well executed, but whats the alternative? Many have nothing or a worse.
I do plan on painting my own, and am going to try to integrate in something on the order of Rob's hand painted back drops. If one wants to keep it simple, what seems to work best are the hazy in-the-distance landscapes - which suggests real scenery in the same way that real scenes often do.
Best approach to finding a professional artist with the skills you want for a backdrop might be to search for an artist who does murals...
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Drumguy.
I hope you won't be offended if I say I like your artist's statement. Some folks get all cagey when the word art even comes up. I have learned the hard way how difficult it is to even have that conversation. See: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/231838.aspx?page=1
Whether most know it or not, as a model railroader you're an artist already, although no one will insist anyone be required to call themselves an artist.
I really do mean it that Greg Gray showed me how to do the backdrop. I have no practical experience with painting of this sort. If it's not a wall or a ceiling or a vehicle, I hardly knew which end of the brush to hold.
I think backdrop painting is just like any other model railroad skill. It can be learned to an acceptable level with surprisingly little effort. You simply have to convince yourself you can do it, then you try it, and pretty soon you're looking for more inspiration.
It doesn't have to be as complicated as my Silverton backdrop. Here's a view of the south end of Durango. It's not really a prototypical scene, but does help give a sense of exiting the mountains. Sometimes what the layout needs is more important than what the prototype defined and that sort of choice is exactly the sort that an artist makes.
Or you can just stick to doing the simple stuff, which is very effective when framed with 3D scenery.
The landscape behind Rockwood - Low and High, Wide angles
Up the Creek
I also use some "sawtooth" panels at the edges of my peninsula. These act as scenic dividers, but also keep visitor intrusion onto the layout in check in tight spots.
Nothing too complicated about them, even if you've never held a paint brush before. In fact, I rattle-bombed them
Sometimes art simply recycles, an artistic judgment that generations of artists have paid tribute to. In this case, it's even hard to detect. Look closely at the treeline, as it's hard to make it out. The trees that are right on the backdrop are literally right on the backdrop. They're a sticker I got from Hobby Lobby. There are probably 3 dozen packs of the things right at the tree line all around the room.
But isnt that scenery? Yes, and it's also art. And we pretty much all do scenery without too much trepidation about being called a *GASP!* scenicker.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I’m perfectly capable of painting a near photo realistic backdrop. But it’s the last thing I’d ever do. Personally I hate photo backdrops. They set the bar too high for the rest of your modeling. And I don’t mean that in any condescending way to those who use photo backdrops nor anyone’s modeling skill. Bottom line: photos behind the trains, everything in front and in between better stack up to that level of detail.
To me, the backdrop is about mood and energy. It shouldn’t be the first thing noticed, it should just sort of exist as an afterthought to the first time visitor. I’ll post some photos of mine tomorrow. Some will like it, some will hate it, others will be indifferent. I don’t care. Nor should you if your backdrop serves its purpose.
And if you think you can’t paint a backdrop, watch some Bob Ross videos. Lambast it if you will, but he taught millions of people how to relax and enjoy painting for their own enjoyment. Art it ain’t, valid it may very well be.
I sponge painted some white on a blue background and I thought it looked pretty good 30 years ago. Now I would use some gray or a gray blue for more variety.
There are some painted backgrounds on youtube videos with mountains and trees. There is a big difference in how they look. By that standard, I would hire someone.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
richhotrain PED Right now my backdrop is 100% blue sky. I would like to add landscape and sky details like low hills, trees, buildings, clouds, etc. However, I have no artistic skills and anything I would try to paint would look like a first grade art project. I am not looking for guidance on how to do it myself because "it is easy". I anticipate hiring someone to do it. A lot of the replies will try to convince you to paint the backdrops yesterday. But, I feel like you do. I have given some thought to hiring someone with artistic skills to paint the backdrops on my new layout. Let's face it, some of us lack even basic artistic skills. You either have it or you don't. I used to watch some artist with a German accent on PBS on Saturday mornings. He would constantly say, "It's not that difficult, you can do it". I would call out to the TV, "No I can't". I guess it all depends upon what you want to paint. Dabbing white paint with a sponge on a blue background to simulate clouds is one thing, mountains and forests quite another, and then there are structures and buildings like downtown scenes, farms, heavy industries, etc. My thought is to contact a local art school or college and ask if young students would be interested in taking on such a project as painting backdrops for a model railroad. The cost would be far cheaper to pay a talented college student than a professional artist. I just may do that myself. Rich
PED Right now my backdrop is 100% blue sky. I would like to add landscape and sky details like low hills, trees, buildings, clouds, etc. However, I have no artistic skills and anything I would try to paint would look like a first grade art project. I am not looking for guidance on how to do it myself because "it is easy". I anticipate hiring someone to do it.
Right now my backdrop is 100% blue sky. I would like to add landscape and sky details like low hills, trees, buildings, clouds, etc. However, I have no artistic skills and anything I would try to paint would look like a first grade art project. I am not looking for guidance on how to do it myself because "it is easy". I anticipate hiring someone to do it.
A lot of the replies will try to convince you to paint the backdrops yesterday. But, I feel like you do. I have given some thought to hiring someone with artistic skills to paint the backdrops on my new layout.
Let's face it, some of us lack even basic artistic skills. You either have it or you don't. I used to watch some artist with a German accent on PBS on Saturday mornings. He would constantly say, "It's not that difficult, you can do it". I would call out to the TV, "No I can't".
I guess it all depends upon what you want to paint. Dabbing white paint with a sponge on a blue background to simulate clouds is one thing, mountains and forests quite another, and then there are structures and buildings like downtown scenes, farms, heavy industries, etc.
My thought is to contact a local art school or college and ask if young students would be interested in taking on such a project as painting backdrops for a model railroad. The cost would be far cheaper to pay a talented college student than a professional artist. I just may do that myself.
Rich
That's a great idea that I will look into. I have about 400 linear feet of backdrop that needs 'scenic artistry'. I have NO artistic talent.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
Some more encouragement from the DIY angle. This ain't rocket science and a bucket of paint will hide any embrassing attempts that are less than satisfactory. I dug around and found pics of the photomosaic I made to paint the Silverton backdrop. These are actually part of one continuous mosiac. At the bottom is the scale in feet, which was determined from the space I had to fit it in.
A few pointers.
Disclosure, I'm a professional artist, and have lots of experience in the field and as a long time model railroader I know about how it works...
I see a lot of suggestions about painting it yourself, and it isn't so easy if you aren't artistically disposed, so hiring someone might be a good idea.
To hire an artist is a good way to get it done, but the suggestion of hiring art students or teachers may be well meant, but not a good advice... Many of them aren't really into realism...
First of all, the concept of a model railroad backdrop isn't so very well known outside of our hobby. And to look right there is certain rules you must follow.
Scale, right perspective etc.etc...
I have painted some backdrops for others, mostly museums, but it is the same concept. The end result is based on my experience, discussion with the client and to have a good understanding of what it is supposed to look like.
Price is never easy to negotiate, especially when working for a private person. But it isn't as expensive as some thinks.... I usually work on a fixed price as that's the easiest way to get a happy client.
Just my view, hope it helps.
"Even if they do it for free, I would give them an appropriate gift for the effort."
A very wise suggestion, in fact, buying the materials without paying for the labor is also a good idea.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
My Daughter is a real arthead and her fellow high school students have offered to do my backdrop. I will let them do it in a heartbeat when the time comes if my own kid doesn't want to do it. There is some amazing young talent out there. The rates can't be beaten. Even if they do it for free, I would give them an appropriate gift for the effort.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I suspect the place to start with an art student, or anyone for that matter, would be to have some photographs available of the kind of backdrop you want. Then there would have to be an explanation of scale, perspective etc. My guess is once the artist figures out that there is more to the project than a sky, he/she may feel challenged.
bearmanBefore you go out and hire a commercial artist, who will probably charge you an arm and a leg, you might want to get in touch with an art teacher at a local college or university and consider hiring a starving undergrad or grad student to do the work.
If you do, there are a couple of things you have to make sure they understand. The first is that they need to create everything to the scale you are modeling. Second is that you want to explain to them that the horizon line is at eye level when you are operating (either sitting or standing), not at some spot midway up the backdrop that fits their artistic vision. The exception to this might be that photography is your main interest in modeling and you want the horizon at camera level.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.