I need to add a river to my layout. Would be a small river with muddy water. I have already built the river bed shape with ground goop with color to represent a sandy river bed along with sandy river banks. After looking at various products and options for the water, I need some advice on product selection. I looked at the Woodand Scenics products such as deep water pour. I am sure it would work for me but it is pretty pricy to cover the area I need. I also looked at other products such as Modge Podge, gels, two part epoxy,etc. Every one seemed to have side effect that made me second guess them. Some had a sticky surface when "dry", some developed bubbles, etc.
I need something simple but effective for a smooth flowing river...no waves needed. I also prefer a liquid product that will self level. Would be poured onto a ground goop surface. Since I have no experience making water for a layout, I would like some guidance before I make mess.
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
Hi PED,
Hopefully doctorwayne will chip in. He has done some amazing looking muddy water using drywall compound, paint and varathane (I think I have the materials correct). I don't believe any 'water' compounds were used for the flat water, but it has just enough texture to the surface to suggest moving water.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I have used "Magic Water" from Unreal Details three times and am a satisfied customer.
https://www.unrealdetails.com/
Dave Nelson
I have used both Mod Podge, which is odorless as far as I can tell, and a two-part epoxy of 'finish' quality. The epoxy didn't seem to foul the air near my layout over the next couple of days.
If you try the epoxy, it must be measured well, both parts of it, and also stirred into each other very well...several minutes of steady mixing...not beating...mixing. The slower you do this and take your time, the fewer bubbles you'll have when you pour the mix. If you do the measuring and mixing properly, it will NOT dry sticky. Hard, yes....flat yes...but not sticky.
You were close, Dave, but no cee-gar today.
I created my water effects using Durabond 90 patching plaster. It sets in about 90 minutes, although there are other setting times available. I use putty-knives and drywall knives to spread it, and after the plaster is fully-cured, paint it with flat latex interior house paint, in this case the same dirt colour that I use for my basic terrain (Durabond over aluminum window screen), and the grey/green is what I use on background trees and foliage. The bit of "white water" around the bridge piers (they're also cast in Durabond, using homemade styrene moulds) was done with Pollyscale paint. After the paint was fully cured - a couple of days, or so, the "water" got three coats of water-based high gloss clear urethane. Here's the "before" of my version of the Maitland river...
...and the finished version...
Here's Chippawa Creek, a shallower example, shown "before"...
...and after...
...and as seen from the air (photo courtesy of Secord Air Services)...
With a little bit of effort/patience, you can make waves, too...
For the rivers, the Durabond is applied over plywood (pre-wetted with a little "wet" water so that the plywood doesn't draw too much water out of the plaster), and is about 1/8" thick.In the scene with the waves, the plaster is about 1 1/2" thick, only because I had originally planned for something else there. Durabond will set in roughly its stated setting time, regardless of how thick or thin it's applied and regardless of its consistency. It doesn't crack, and the urethane finish, especially on the rivers, has stood up very well to dozens of cameras sitting directly atop it. Every once in a while, I vacuum or wipe off any accumulated dust.
Because I use the Durabond for both water and landforms (and rock castings and bridge piers) I buy it in 33lb. bags, but it's also available in smaller packages at places like Lowes, Home Depot, and perhaps hardware stores and local lumberyards, too.Wayne
I also use Magic Water and am satisfied with the results. Bubbles can be avoided by pouring vey slowly and deliberately and make sure there is good ventilation.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Thanks all. The Chippawa Creek by doctorwayne is exactly the effect I am looking for. Has right muddy water appearance and slight surface turbulance I want. Mine will not look that wide but otherwise looks just right. I was wanting a self leveling liquid but I am OK with the Durabond 90 since it looks like I will have enough working time to make it right. Already have the color I want in the flat latex paint since I was using it in my ground goop.
However, I am curious about the urthane topcoat in three layers. Are three coats needed for durability or for some effect? Was the slight surface waveness created by the urthane or was that done in the original Durabond? I have seen videos where waviness was created in two part epoxy water by blowing on the surface with a straw as it was hardening to create a ripple effect.
I'm afraid you have that a wee bit muddled...not muddied...muddled...as in mixed up.
The soda straw is used for the epoxy pour, and only to raise the bubbles. Some bubbles are inevitable, but after pouring and waiting for about five minutes for the pour volume to spread out as much as it intends, you take the soda straw in mouth and gently blow on the surface to make the bubbles all pop and disappear. It's quite magical how it works, but it does, and has for me reliably. This process takes seconds for each square foot of poured surface.
The stippled or wavy surface is brought about using wooden dowels as the epoxy sets up, usually at least six hours later. It typically takes about 12-16 hours to harden, and then only if measured and mixed well...as I take pains to repeat because it is that important. To make the waves, simply press the dowel end into the surface at a slight angle and force the material away from the dowel a bit. Ideally, the wavelet will remain long enough that the epoxy hardens and sustains it.
I make my wavy surfaces using gel gloss medium. It is like white Nivea cream, but it will dry clear. I spread it somewhat briskly, not caring about form, only coverage, and then take the side of a one-inch foam disposable brush and 'stipple' the layer of gloss medium.
Note that you can tint both the epoxy and the gloss medium, gel or liquid, with a tiny amount of craft paints, the acrylic craft kind available at Walmart.
And most recently on an outdoors diorama:
PED...However, I am curious about the urthane topcoat in three layers. Are three coats needed for durability or for some effect? Was the slight surface waveness created by the urthane or was that done in the original Durabond?...
Any of the surface irregularities are the result of the tools used to spread and shape the surface of water...the stuff around the bridge piers was done intentionally, while the wider, shallow troughs and ridges are just the way it ended up. The clear urethane was used both to give the water a "wet" appearance, and to protect the surface, as I had a pretty good idea that it would be a magnet for cameras. I did three coats only because I had time to do so: the instructions on the can specify a drying time between coats, but beyond that time, recommend that the surface be sanded prior to adding additional coats. Not only is Durabond difficult to sand once fully-cured, sanding would also remove, or at least lessen, those swirls and troughs that help to create the impression of water. You could probably get away with two coats of urethane if you don't anticipate cameras on it, but do make sure that the paint is completely cured before applying it. The urethane is completely self-levelling, and the entire operation, plaster, paint, and clear coat, very low-odour.
Wayne
I got started today by purchasing some Easy Sand 45 in lieu of DuraBond 90 since no one sold DuraBond anywhere close to me. Easy Sand is a lightweight and sandable close cousin to DuraBond. I mixed up a small batch to experiment with and was pleased with the result. I expected it to set up in 45 minutes but it took closer to 60 minutes for it to get to the consistency of clay. When it got to clay like consistancy, I could touch it and do some shaping without it sticking to tools or my fingers. Within another 10 minutes it got too firm to work with. However, I was able to get the surface manupliated to get rid of tool marks and leave slight texture that could represent current ripples. Tomorrow I will add some paint then later when all dry I will add the Polyurthane layers.
Better to learn the techniques on a test sample. I am now confortable enough to work on my layout river.
Great suggestions everyone. There's something amazing in seeing a photo of a train's reflection in the water. I plan on putting water on the layout to depict Southern VA, so whatever you guys have for suggestions are most-appreciated.
I'm a fan of Envirotex Lite. It's a 2-part epoxy resin. It's normally crystal clear when hard, but you can add a few drops of acrylic craft paint to tint and cloud the water. Combining this with a prepared, painted "river bed" lets you use only a small depth of "water" to create the illusion of depth. This mill canal is modeled after the old mill complexes of New England.
The next one is a small, clearer stream.
This was my first attempt at water, and it' stiil one of my favorites. It's a shallow pond, using a few pours of tinted Envirotex to create the illusion of depth. The tinting clouds the water and gives it apparent optical depth, with the underwater features getting less and less distinct as you go down.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I had good luck using Woodland Scenics Foam Tack Glue over a painted surface. It dries clear with a little bit of a wave to it. Doesn't run like some other products, sticks like...well, you know.
Is there any value in vacuum-deairing the two-part compounds, as when using epoxy for RTV rubber mold casting, or in preheating the area of application with something like a hair dryer to reduce trapped air during the pour?
It sounds like a lot of bother, Overmod. Honestly, I have done this several times and just waited out the air bubblets. Many disappear on their own if they end up close to the surface. The rest, to a bubble, get eliminated in the time it takes to pass a mouth-anchored soda straw over the surface. It literally takes 20 seconds.
Overmodor in preheating the area of application with something like a hair dryer to reduce trapped air during the pour?
Somewhere, I remember reading about using the hair dryer, after the pour, to remove air bubbles.
For what little areas I did, I didn't need it, they disappeared over night.
Mike.
My You Tube
RR_Mel The most durable and low cost way I’ve found for water is Parks Super Glaze from a big box store. About a quarter of the cost of any hobby product. Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951 My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Mel, I really like the looks of your pond. How deep is the product you mention? Dan
When I was preparing to use Envirotex for the first time, I did a few test pours. One was a deep pour, about an inch thick, all at once. That was the only time I ever developed permanent air bubbles in a water scene.
Since then, I've kept my pours to 1/8 to 1/4 inch and bubbles have never been a problem.
One thing I'm concerned about is the flammability of the resin fumes. Do any of these pourable resin products come with this risk of igniting? My gas-fired furnace and water heater are both in the basement along with the layout. My wife would be upset if I blew up the house.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Two-part epoxy vapours are not flammable and not very toxic, according to a website I saw recently. Some may have an adverse reaction to the fumes, but most do not. They have never bothered me.
"Epoxy" vapors are not flammable, but they pose a substantial risk of sensitization reaction which can lead to symptoms of 'occupational asthma'
In my opinion you should never work with this stuff in a confined space (such as any basement where ignition of flammable concentrations would be possible) or without reasonable protection against breathing the uncured vapor or any sanding dust.