I have read in many places that 30 inches is what people consider the maximum depth for a layout from front to back. There are even a few active threads right now that say this.
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I have to question this as good advice. I know if you are taller you can reach further, and if you build the layout lower you can reach further. This makes sense.
I am 6' 7" tall, I am pretty much near the maximum for a human. Well into the top 1%. I built my test layout 36" from the floor, again pretty much near the minimum to be considered for layout height. I also built it only 28" deep.
So, I am super tall, layout was low, and it was less than 30", and I still had trouble reaching into the rear of a scene and working on things for time. Painting the backdrop was a test. Installing roadbed and track along the back was rough also.
As we get older, I am 50, should we reconsider the maximum depth of the layout?
Does anyone have real world experience to share?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I get your point. I'm uncomfortable with anything more than 24 inches deep at a 48 inch layout height, and I'm 6 feet tall.
It also matters how tall and close things are to the edge.
- Douglas
Some times you need deeper for some reason like a loop but I found the ideal depth after much testing for a single route to be 19", went to 24" on last layout because the whole thing was double route. Now sure I could reach farther but to do good work you need to be comfortable and to easily reach what you need to. This also means you need to have any tall foreground items to be removable so that you don't damage them when working on stuff.
LION tried a along the wall layout with a 36" reach. It was ok for the first level, but as I built up I could no longer access the staging yards that I built at the rear of the 36" table. I finally had to get a cadre of 20 or so monks to come up to the train room and lift the tables and move them 24" from the walls. Now I could walk around to the back, which was still a major PITA.
I still have those 36" tables on my gnu layout, but I put them side to side making a table 6' across. Of course the middle 3' is the donut hole with nothin in it at all (except junk stored on the floor). I am only using abut 2' on either edge. The back edge (The arm pit of the layout) has six levels of track (and five subway stations). People really never go back in there to see what is happening in there. With fourteen miles of track they get enough entertainment standing where I intended them to stand.
The Middle of the Muddle...
Other infor on website of LION.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
To me, an important layout design principle not understood by many newcomers is the benefit of varying benchwork depth rather than having a constant depth everywhere.
This provides reduced reach except where more depth is specifically needed and reduces the amount of benchwork and scenery that must be constructed. In most of my designs for clients I have been able to limit the 30” reach to a few critical locations and opt for shallower benchwork elsewhere.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I am convinced, now about 13 years into the hobby, that I can reach 30" into a scene...provided it is no higher or lower....this is important...than about my navel. If I have to reach into a scene much below my belt line, or higher than my sternum, my reach is reduced. Think of your two working levers, spine and arms, that have to work in concert for a deep reach. You must bend, and then reach. If you must bend, and bow, and then reach, your reach suffers. If you can only bend a bit and then reach,...
Plan accordingly.
Well, I like scenery with depth, so after building a double deck layout with narrow shelves and not liking it, my new layout will be deeper.
3-4 feet deep in most places.
BUT, all the trackwork will be in the front 24-30 inches. And there will be rear access, and/or hatches where needed.
And most important, benchwork will hold my weight and provisions will be made for access as required.
I tried it, and the narrow shelf with a backdrop just does not get it for me.......
Sheldon
I'm building mine at 48in high, I like the view. All but one table is 24 wide. That puts the rear track at about 18from front.I can reach that fine untill you add buildings and trees. Any kind of ''work'' back there is an issue,and I'm building it with that in mind.
The part that is 40in has acess on three sides
My home layout is a true shelf layout that varies in depth from 18" deep to 27" deep, with the height varying from 48" to 55". When operating the view is great. However to work on the backdrop or scenery, I built a wooden platform (box) 24" long by 15" wide and 8" high made of 2" x 6" wood with a carpet attached to the bottom so as not to scratch the tile floor. If I need to reach even higher or farther into the layout they make plastic kitchen 2 step stools.
Frank
selector I am convinced, now about 13 years into the hobby, that I can reach 30" into a scene...provided it is no higher or lower....this is important...than about my navel. Plan accordingly.
I am convinced, now about 13 years into the hobby, that I can reach 30" into a scene...provided it is no higher or lower....this is important...than about my navel.
Here is how I plan accordingly. I used a stool to bring the layout to navel level to work on the back of my 30" yard at 50" high. That worked pretty well.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Selector brings up an important point. Too low is just as bad as too high. It is commonly said that the lower you build the layout, the further your reach goes - but that's only true up to a point, assuming you need both hands and can't rest one arm on the layout as support. You get too low, and what WAS a comfortable lean with your waist or so leaning against the fascia now becaomes a situation in which you are unstable and overbalanced. The extreme case would be a layout just above knee leveal, you lean way over - maybe stand on tip toes for that extra little bit of reach - and your feet fly back and you land face down on the layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Selector brings up an important point. Too low is just as bad as too high. It is commonly said that the lower you build the layout, the further your reach goes - but that's only true up to a point, assuming you need both hands and can't rest one arm on the layout as support. You get too low, and what WAS a comfortable lean with your waist or so leaning against the fascia now becaomes a situation in which you are unstable and overbalanced. The extreme case would be a layout just above knee leveal, you lean way over - maybe stand on tip toes for that extra little bit of reach - and your feet fly back and you land face down on the layout. --Randy
I have decided that I like 42" as a "base" or lowest elevation with much of trackage being 4-6" higher than that. That height, combined with deeper scenes, is more visually pleasing to me.
As stated before, I tried the narrow shelf and double deck thing, I lost interest because of the visual aspects before I could even complete it.
Its not that I like deep shelves, but they offer so much some time. So I have been thinking of several solutions that I hope will allow me to work on deeper scenes/structures.
1) This particular step stool....
Interestingly I already had in my possession a special step ladder that will allow me to climb a couple of steps and reach over to the back sides of the upper deck tracks. Turns out it just does just fit under the bottom deck at 40 inches off the floor. And it has a built in 'handle' that can be used to grip or lean against when accessing that upper deck. I just have to make sure I build the lower deck shelf high enough to accept this ladder.
3) Utilize a digital printed or painted screen of material for the backdrop that can be adhesively applied to the backdrop material.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Well, no one's saying you can;t make layout scenes 7 feet deep if you want, just that it will be physically impossible to reach it from just one side. Something extra wide will require access hatches to get to the back part. Something that is say 4 feet wide but has access on both the front and back is no problem as all as the longest reach would be 24". Many ways to skin a cat (sorry Lion) here. Make it no wider than a comfortable reach. Make it twice as wide with access from 2 sides. Make it any width, with access hatches. Make it any width, with some sort of sling system so you cna 'fly' over the layout in some sort of harness system - just make sure you know what you are doing with ropes and rigging before attempting something like that.
railandsail.... 2) Place most of the scenery and structures onto 'gatorboard slabs' that fit into recesses on the shelf. This will allow for these individual structures and scenes to be removed from their 'spots' on the layout, and taken down to workbench level to be further detailed, then placed back on the layout.
2) Place most of the scenery and structures onto 'gatorboard slabs' that fit into recesses on the shelf. This will allow for these individual structures and scenes to be removed from their 'spots' on the layout, and taken down to workbench level to be further detailed, then placed back on the layout.
I think I missed trying to explain what I was talking of here. I was referring to providing a 'foundation board' for the structures that would allow them to be taken off the layout, worked on, then replaced in their designated spot.
Foundationshttp://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/212575.aspx I much prefer .060" sheet styrene for foundations, and buy it in 4'x8' sheets, as it's useful for many other things, too. Simply make an open box in the size and shape of the structure's footprint. Brick buildings would sit directly atop it, while most wood and metal buildings would overlap the foundation slightly. If you use solvent cement to assemble the foundation, allow it to harden fully, then file or sand the corners to make the joints invisible. You can also add a styrene floor to strengthen the entire structure or where a floor is needed for interior details, as in the first photo below. Wayne
I much prefer .060" sheet styrene for foundations, and buy it in 4'x8' sheets, as it's useful for many other things, too. Simply make an open box in the size and shape of the structure's footprint. Brick buildings would sit directly atop it, while most wood and metal buildings would overlap the foundation slightly. If you use solvent cement to assemble the foundation, allow it to harden fully, then file or sand the corners to make the joints invisible. You can also add a styrene floor to strengthen the entire structure or where a floor is needed for interior details, as in the first photo below.
Wayne
While we're talking about foundations, I would like to give a suggestion for keeping the structure located exactly on the base. Once you have fabricated the foundation of your choice, use small dowels, round toothpicks etc at the inside corners. This will keep the building just where it's intended yet can be easily removed for nearby work or some housekeeping. You can use blocks, however I find that the dowels, tilted slightly inward allows easy replanting w/o fumbling and wiggling the structure to drop it back in place.
Scenery and structures / glue building or dont glue building to layout
Where possible, I do not glue buildings to the board. I try to bed them in with the surrounding scenery. They might not be as firm as some would like, but it is easier to replace / update / access lighting etc. And, if you do damage them, they can be repaired on the workbench.
Here is an alternative to gluing buildings down: I don’t like to permanently glue my buildings down, but it is a problem getting the foundations to look right unless you glue ground cover or dirt, in place, right up to the edges, which effectively also glues the building down. The solution is to make what I call “footprint boards”. The first photo shows preparation for my added wharf scene by scraping old ground cover off with a putty knife. The second photo shows a footprint board that is made by carefully tracing the building base outline on a scrap of wood (1/4” plywood in this example). Cut the board out and sand the edges smooth. The next step is to wrap the board in saran wrap. Drill a hole through the footprint board so you can fasten it to your base with a screw. The 3rd photo shows 2 footprint boards screwed in place. I used fine beach sand in this case, spread it right up to the board edge, and glued it down with diluted white glue, but you can use the ground cover of your choice. The 4th photo shows the footprint boards removed (Saran wrap allows boards to come up easily after unscrewing), after glue has completely dried (I waited 2 days). The last photo shows the buildings installed inside the depression made by the footprint boards. You will find that they will be a tight fit with ground cover coming up to edges with little or no unsightly gap. If you want the buildings semi-permanent you can use “blu tack” or “handi-tac”. One of the advantages to this technique is the ability to easily remove your structures for lighting installations.
Here is an alternative to gluing buildings down:
I don’t like to permanently glue my buildings down, but it is a problem getting the foundations to look right unless you glue ground cover or dirt, in place, right up to the edges, which effectively also glues the building down. The solution is to make what I call “footprint boards”.
The first photo shows preparation for my added wharf scene by scraping old ground cover off with a putty knife. The second photo shows a footprint board that is made by carefully tracing the building base outline on a scrap of wood (1/4” plywood in this example). Cut the board out and sand the edges smooth. The next step is to wrap the board in saran wrap.
Drill a hole through the footprint board so you can fasten it to your base with a screw. The 3rd photo shows 2 footprint boards screwed in place. I used fine beach sand in this case, spread it right up to the board edge, and glued it down with diluted white glue, but you can use the ground cover of your choice.
The 4th photo shows the footprint boards removed (Saran wrap allows boards to come up easily after unscrewing), after glue has completely dried (I waited 2 days). The last photo shows the buildings installed inside the depression made by the footprint boards.
You will find that they will be a tight fit with ground cover coming up to edges with little or no unsightly gap. If you want the buildings semi-permanent you can use “blu tack” or “handi-tac”. One of the advantages to this technique is the ability to easily remove your structures for lighting installations.
Good thread on the 'removable buildings' subject here,..
I am putting all my buildings on bases that include surrounding details like sidewalks, people, cars etc. Once a year I lift the entire scene off, take it to the workbench, and give it a good dusting. At the workbench I can be more careful of dusting around the details, and if I do knock something off, it is easier to glue it back in place. Originally, I glued buildings down on the layout, but it quickly became apparent that cleaning the dust off was going to be a problem, vacuuming never gets all the dust off, I use a soft brush, like a shaving brush to dust everything. I put plugs in for the wiring for lighting so it can be removed easily. Sometimes the base has several buildings all on one piece. The edges of the base can be hidden in the scenery along the edges of tracks or roads or by simply throwing some grass over it and leaving the grass loose. One thing that I would try to do different next time is to make the bases a standard size, that way I could swap out scenes with different ones. Brent Ciccone
Originally, I glued buildings down on the layout, but it quickly became apparent that cleaning the dust off was going to be a problem, vacuuming never gets all the dust off, I use a soft brush, like a shaving brush to dust everything.
I put plugs in for the wiring for lighting so it can be removed easily. Sometimes the base has several buildings all on one piece. The edges of the base can be hidden in the scenery along the edges of tracks or roads or by simply throwing some grass over it and leaving the grass loose.
One thing that I would try to do different next time is to make the bases a standard size, that way I could swap out scenes with different ones.
Brent Ciccone
If I could start over, I would make everything the same as kitchen countertops.
This is how not to build a layout. The width of the town is 7'-6" wide. The aisles are 19" wide. None of the buildings are glued down. When I was 30 something this was fine. Now that I am a lot older, it is a royal PITA.
To work on anything towards the center of town, I have to remove buildings that are nearer to edge of the layout so I don't break them. And I have to work off a small ladder. Back-breaking.
I also have to turn sideways to get through the aisles.
Hopefully, when it is finished, I won't have to do anything in the center.
I hope my mistakes help someone else.
Brian, just to clarify the three pictures of mine which you used a couple of posts ago:
The farm supply/grain elevator is a combination of Walthers grain elevator and a scratchbuilt farm supply. It's located in what, like a real one, was an empty and somewhat hilly field. In order to allow the structures to sit level, I hired a contractor (hammer) to alter the terrain somewhat. A few bashes with the hammer removed the hilly plaster-on-screen terrain, leaving the screen mostly intact and the plaster either gone or in small enough pieces to be of no consequence. I propped-up the elevator in the excavation, along with the other structure and added some fresh plaster to make the lot more useable, so the elevator's base is a bit into the terrain and that of the store even moreso, as it's set a bit into the hillside. I forgot, though, that the siding needed to be lengthened to reach the elevator, and simply propped up the extra track on some of the broken plaster rubble and then added some ballast, dirt, and ground foam, wet water and white glue, so the foundations in that first photo are all "in the ground".
The second photo is pretty-much the same case, as that warehouse was partially over a depression in the scenery - the foundation was made to accommodate the dip, although only enough to keep the building level....it's not fully modelled. I did fill in the visible portion of the dip, turning it into a very shallow (in front-to-back depth) inlet of Lake Erie...
The coal dealer's shed in the third photo is sitting atop plywood, although the building has a "concrete" foundation (a relative's farmhouse, built in the early 1900s, had a concrete foundation) so I feel that I'm on solid ground using such bases for lots of structures on my late '30s layout. With ground cover applied to the entire yard area, the structure appears to be firmly planted in the ground, but should I need to move it, it wouldn't be too difficult to uproot it.Some folks like to change-out structures once in a while, but most of mine only move around until I find the spot which suits them best. The grain elevator in the first photo was originally located elsewhere in the same town, right near the coal dealer, as seen here...
...and moved, in the photo above, across the tracks at left. The new location put it quite close to the aisle, which inspired me to add the farm supply store to make it more interesting. Here's the same area "before"...
Since were talking about layout depth, I'll add my two cents worth.My layout is an around-the-room type, partially double-decked. Layout depth varies from about 22" to over 50"...the 50" part is shown here, in the corner...
I can easily reach the track and structures, and stood on a step stool to do the background scenery - the layout here is about 43" high. I have no further need to reach into the background scene unless I wish to alter it...I still have the step stool.
I never really thought about this issue until it came up here, and was surprised to find that this area, into the corner...
...is a little over 60" deep, and at a height of about 40". As you can see, there's a turning wye in this corner, so, not being as stupid as I look, I made an access hatch (the stepped plywood beyond the tracks) which will eventually become a residential street. I've used the hatch to get in to add ballast and ground cover, but that's about it so far. The turnout, under the bridge, is the only motorised one on the layout, and that turnout the only one which has come apart. I could reach it just fine from the aisle, but the bridge made repairs somewhat "difficult".
The upper level is at a height about 59" above the floor, great for viewing and most operations. Most of it is reachable from the step stool, so structures and scenery shouldn't be an issue. The upper level is equal to- or greater in depth than the lower level. This was done partially to allow room for a roundhouse and turntable, and also to allow better lighting for the layout on the lower level.
However, the area at the end of the aisle, shown below...
...is about 39" deep, and about 49" from fascia to the back corners of the room. When adding the tracks there, I worked from a stepladder, leaning on the layout as necessary, and when it came time to paint the rails, I climbed up onto the upper level, using the stepladder, and painted them, both sides of both rails, while lying on the layout....talk about a topside creeper! Once the background scenery is in place (more high level work), there should be no need to reach in unless there's a derailment, easily do-able from the step stool.
For me, the extra depth affords more scenic opportunities (plus the turning wye, which is vital on a point-to-point operation), and doesn't cause much hardship if thought out carefully.
Thank you Wayne, you always suppy such a wealth of written information, along with photos,......WOW
Thanks for your kind words, Brian.
I sometimes fear that people will tire of the multiple photos and often wordy responses, but try to be as comprehensive in my replies as possible. And, of course, I'm always pleased to elaborate further if something's not clear to an observer.I've generally been fortunate to have things work out quite well in this hobby, but I certainly don't want to give anyone the impression that my methods are the only way of doing things: this is just my take on it, and I enjoy learning from others just as much.
Keep in mind that your bench work is going to have a facia and if you want that stool to still fit then you actual surface is going to be a couple inches higher.