Randy, you commented a while back in this thread about homasote.
Well, no question, homasote is not good in any damp environment. And that will make it lose it best features, like holding nails/spikes tight enough but not too tight.
Generally I have had great results with homasote sheets for flat areas (over plywood) and homabed roadbed on wood subroadbed.
But my layout space is dry, above grade, well insulated and heated/cooled as needed. Because it is an outbuilding, I do not heat and cool it to comfort temps all the time, but in extreem weather I keep the heat at 50 and the cooling at 85 when I am not out there.
Sheldon
Randy, don't you havd any good indepentent lumber yards? That likely sell mostly to contractors?
Thry should have good quality domestic Birtch ply, about $70 for 3/4".
I need to find a source of good playwood. The 'birch' plywood they have at the big box stores is garbade - one outer ply of birch and the rest is the same as any old plywood. And the places that DO have the real stuff around here are all wholesale only. And those places do indeed have some VERY nice wood products, not just good plywood. If I was going to build some nice cabinets or something.
They do have something similar to that HDF I used long ago, I have a 2x4 piece of 3/4" plywood as well as a 2x4 piece of this stuff in 3/4". VERY heavy compared to the plywood, but it's not OSB, it's more like tightly glued together sawdust instead of big chips.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Tinindian Sorry to be off topic, Rio Grande. But could you show me more of your layout? Looks very interesting. Thanks.
Sorry to be off topic, Rio Grande. But could you show me more of your layout? Looks very interesting. Thanks.
It was torn down last summer and I have moved but if you follow this link - there are additional photos. There used to be more but photobucket stopped allowing hot links so I moved most, but not all over to a new host:
http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-progress?page=2
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I cut OSB into 3 or 4 inch wide strips for subroad bed and supports spaced about 10 to 12 inches apart. It was quite solid and no issues with sagging or crumbling.
For larger areas I used a sandwich of 1/2-inch Homasote and 1/2-inch OSB supported about every 12 -14 inches:
I put a long straight edge on top checking it periodically and it remaind nice and flat. I will say it was pretty heavy though.
UNCLEBUTCH SeeYou190 When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles So what your telling me; If I use a 2in strip of OSB to lay track to carry a couple of lbs. of plastic. I should not walk on it, grag and twist it, beat on it with a blunt object,or clean it with a power washer. Correct?
SeeYou190 When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles
So what your telling me;
If I use a 2in strip of OSB to lay track to carry a couple of lbs. of plastic. I should not walk on it, grag and twist it, beat on it with a blunt object,or clean it with a power washer.
Correct?
And, it might need a few more supports than some thicker 1/2" birtch plywood.
SeeYou190When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles
railandsail SeeYou190 When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles. -Kevin I was recently given a 3/4" thick 4x8 piece of this stuff. I thought about using it as a subroadbed for my shelf type layout. I was put off by the really heavy weight of that sheet, much heavier than plywood. Then a little corner of it got damp sitting in my carport on its edge,...it quickly fanned out and became unusable in that small corner. I subsequently made some 18" deep sheves out of it in my other storage shed. But it lost a lot of its stiffness when cut into those more narrow strips. To tell the truth I wouldn't build ANYTHING out of it,...crap recycle stuff.
SeeYou190 When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles. -Kevin
When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles.
-Kevin
I was recently given a 3/4" thick 4x8 piece of this stuff. I thought about using it as a subroadbed for my shelf type layout. I was put off by the really heavy weight of that sheet, much heavier than plywood. Then a little corner of it got damp sitting in my carport on its edge,...it quickly fanned out and became unusable in that small corner. I subsequently made some 18" deep sheves out of it in my other storage shed. But it lost a lot of its stiffness when cut into those more narrow strips.
To tell the truth I wouldn't build ANYTHING out of it,...crap recycle stuff.
osb is not a good choice for wet/damp locations or even wide swings in humidity.
In buildings it is never left exposed to the outdoors, it gets covered and protected.
It is weather proof enough for the "normal" exposures during the construction process, but does not do well beyond that, but then again the same can be said of exterior sheathing grade plywood and untreated framing lumber. None are intended for prolonged weather exposure.
My HO scale model trains are indoors, in a heated/cooled and insulated building.......
SeeYou190 rrinker Why can it handle such static loads (plus the dynamic load of people walking across it) but not 5 pounds of trains? Makes no sense. . OSB in large sheets is amazingly strong. It is practicaly unbreakable. It makes absolutely wonderful hurricane shutters. Put a 4 by 8 sheet on a two by four frame with only one crossmember and you can dance on it. . When OSB if cut into narrow pieces it becomes fragile. At three inches wide you can snap it easily with your hands. At two inches wide it almost crumbles. . -Kevin .
rrinker Why can it handle such static loads (plus the dynamic load of people walking across it) but not 5 pounds of trains? Makes no sense.
.
OSB in large sheets is amazingly strong. It is practicaly unbreakable. It makes absolutely wonderful hurricane shutters. Put a 4 by 8 sheet on a two by four frame with only one crossmember and you can dance on it.
Again, in all fairness, in thicknesses similar to osb, all but the most expendive plywood is fragile when cut in narrow strips. Sheathing osb is only 7/16 thick.
I have never liked 1/2" plywood cut in narrow strips and supported on risers as being strong enough. I more typically use 3/4" thick Poplar boards for straight runs..........
Yet others use foam?
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Living the dream.
Randy, to be fair, the osb you see in my photo is interior sheathing in place of drywall, it is not the roof sheathing. But there are a number of floor/roof rated products similar to osb, and typical 7/16 osb sheathing is easily as strong as the 3/8 plywood I've seen used on more than one layout.
More later......
I've had many of the problems people insis don;t happen with homasote - the last N scale layout I built on homasote, I took completely apart, track AND cork, with no tools because the nails pulled right out. That to me is not "spike holding". When it got damp, the edges swelled terribly, yet even the Homasote company says you can put chunks in a bucket of water and nothing happens.
I once built a shelf layout with something I've not seen available since, some sort of HDF material. Even an 18" wide strip, 4' long, was VERY heavy, much more than any MDF. It's not soo much the layout, but above the layout, on the same steel verticals, I added another shelf where underneath I put lights for the layout and on top, I lined up my already large MR and book collection - FAR more weight than any layout. Not the slightest sag, and I wasn;t even using the newer double rail brackets, just the stamped single rail ones, although I did use the heavy duty verticals, not the cheap ones, so it wouldn;t get crushed in. This is yet another material that falls under the "Oh, it will sag if you use it like that" category. Nope. If you had problems with OSB, either it was already dmaaged before use or it was some cheap CHinese junk. Notice in Sheldon's picture the roof of his layout building even uses it for sheathing. Clearly it can stand expected wind and snow loads, otherwise the inspector would never have approved it for occupancy. It's used for subfloor in homes as well as exterior sheething. Floors where people bring in heavy appliances like ranges, refridgerators, and dishwashers. Why can it handle such static loads (plus the dynamic load of people walking across it) but not 5 pounds of trains? Makes no sense.
SeeYou190 riogrande5761 Kevin, I have built 3 layouts now and used OSB and had no problems like a many of the other responders here. . Some people do engine repair without using a torque wrench and have no problems also. It does not make it good advice or the correct thing to do. . I know several people that wired their layouts with old telephone wire. They were successful, still not a good idea. . OSB has many disadvantages and should not be recommended. Good quality plywood is a better choice. The only advantage to OSB is price. . I am glad you have not had problems with your layout that could have caused you to become discouraged with the hobby. . -Kevin .
riogrande5761 Kevin, I have built 3 layouts now and used OSB and had no problems like a many of the other responders here.
Some people do engine repair without using a torque wrench and have no problems also. It does not make it good advice or the correct thing to do.
I know several people that wired their layouts with old telephone wire. They were successful, still not a good idea.
OSB has many disadvantages and should not be recommended. Good quality plywood is a better choice. The only advantage to OSB is price.
I am glad you have not had problems with your layout that could have caused you to become discouraged with the hobby.
Kevin,
Again it depends a lot on the methods as well as the materials.
I have wired some layouts with telephone wire, in fact my own DC Advanced Cab Control System w/radio throttles makes extensive use of CAT5 cable for control wiring for the several hundred LED push buttons and 24 volt relays that control my cabs, signals, turnouts and more.
I don't use it for the power to the track.........
I would never use OSB to sheath a large area of a layout, I'm with you on that, nice birtch plywood, but two layers of OSB worked great for my 16" wide shelf.
I won't use cork or foam roadbed, but that stuff works great for lots of people - too soft for my taste or way of building.
I do use a torque wrench, build more engines than I can remember back in the day........
riogrande5761Kevin, I have built 3 layouts now and used OSB and had no problems like a many of the other responders here.
UNCLEBUTCH Method is more important than materials.
Method is more important than materials.
That sums it up, really.
- Douglas
I built part of the upper deck of my multi deck layout with OSB, two layers of 1/2, laminated with construction glue. these were narrow shelves suspended from an angled attic ceiling.
The OSB sandwich is screwed to a 2x3 ripped with a 45 degree angle for the sloped ceiling, and hangs from the pieces of 2x4 you see in the photo. The total width of the OSB is about 16", the "visable" part in from of the 2x4's is about 8 inches, there is a 1x2 edge piece behind the wood paneled fascia. Everything is assembled with screws.
In this particular application, it has worked fine for nearly 20 years.
For larger areas on the lower levels I used 3/4" birtch plywood.......
It is all about understanding proper support spacing. I'm not going to give a lesson tonight...........
SeeYou190 carl425 When a single 20 car train with 2 diesels can easily cost $1,000 or more, I find it hard to look at $36 as a big deal. . When it comes to the mechanical (including benchwork) parts of the layout, do not scrimp. . Find somewhere else to save money. Benchwork is too important. . I only have used 3/4" birch plywood for my last three layouts. . Overkill: Yes! Problems: None! . -Kevin .
carl425 When a single 20 car train with 2 diesels can easily cost $1,000 or more, I find it hard to look at $36 as a big deal.
When it comes to the mechanical (including benchwork) parts of the layout, do not scrimp.
Find somewhere else to save money. Benchwork is too important.
I only have used 3/4" birch plywood for my last three layouts.
Overkill: Yes!
Problems: None!
With all due respect; I disagree. I built all my layouts with recycled,reused,leftover scraps. Lumber,foam and even the wireing came from dumpsters. Method is more inportant then materials.
I don't use OSB, only because I prefer foam.
Cost; Very low
Problems; None
bearman Mel, I am amazed. You get away with stuff that I would not consider in the least. I am totally impressed.
Mel, I am amazed. You get away with stuff that I would not consider in the least. I am totally impressed.
BobPombrio I read all of the reply's and I found them interesting to say the least. BUT I just checked prices at Lowe's and a 4x8 sheet of osb 7/16 is 15.25 and a 4x8 23/32 (3/8) sheet of plywood is 32.58. So at a 50% saving I would use the USB, I have done a lot of work for OSB in the past and it will support the weight of a tack just fine with 16" on center supports. What are you placing on top of it? 500 pounds of weight? The down side to OSB is that it does not like moisture. But I'm pretty sure we are not running our trains out in the rain or in the pool room. I will use 7/16 OSB with 2+ inches of foam board on top of that. Hell if I build a helix I'll use just 2" foam board. It's not like you will have a lot of weight on it at one time and it will be supported as necessary. If my helix was really wide, say 6+ inches then I'd use a different material but let's be reasonable here folks. Oh and by the way there is a glue side to OSB that is pretty water resistent as well.
I read all of the reply's and I found them interesting to say the least. BUT I just checked prices at Lowe's and a 4x8 sheet of osb 7/16 is 15.25 and a 4x8 23/32 (3/8) sheet of plywood is 32.58. So at a 50% saving I would use the USB, I have done a lot of work for OSB in the past and it will support the weight of a tack just fine with 16" on center supports. What are you placing on top of it? 500 pounds of weight? The down side to OSB is that it does not like moisture. But I'm pretty sure we are not running our trains out in the rain or in the pool room. I will use 7/16 OSB with 2+ inches of foam board on top of that. Hell if I build a helix I'll use just 2" foam board. It's not like you will have a lot of weight on it at one time and it will be supported as necessary. If my helix was really wide, say 6+ inches then I'd use a different material but let's be reasonable here folks.
Oh and by the way there is a glue side to OSB that is pretty water resistent as well.
I always thought OSB was specifically designed for sheething on houses, both as walls and roofs; therefore, its takes nailing well enough and it's water resistent since there are often heavy rainstorms during the construction phase.
Generally:
I think any wood product can be used as subroadbed as long as it has frequent support from underneath. It really isn't that much more labor intensive to support something every 12 to 16 inches than 24 inches once you get rolling with the saws and power screwdrivers.
Especially if your benchwork design allows for a 1x board to be used as a lengthwise spine to provide rigidity.
carl425 riogrande5761 One thing I have noticed is that plywood is MUCH more expensive. At Home Depot, a 4/8 sheet of 19/32 BC plywood is $31.97. A 4/8 sheet of 19/32 OSB is $19.87. If your layout needed 3 sheets, that's a whopping $36 difference. When a single 20 car train with 2 diesels can easily cost $1,000 or more, I find it hard to look at $36 as a big deal.
riogrande5761 One thing I have noticed is that plywood is MUCH more expensive.
At Home Depot, a 4/8 sheet of 19/32 BC plywood is $31.97. A 4/8 sheet of 19/32 OSB is $19.87. If your layout needed 3 sheets, that's a whopping $36 difference. When a single 20 car train with 2 diesels can easily cost $1,000 or more, I find it hard to look at $36 as a big deal.
The only flaw in your argument is I didn't pay$19.87, I paid about $8 for my 4x8 sheets in my local Home Depot. Yeah, difference is a lot bigger.
Kevin, I have built 3 layouts now and used OSB and had no problems like a many of the other responders here.
I'll just say, I have noticed a lot of people with opinions, and as we know, like noses, everyone has them, but has anyone actually used OSB and had a bad experience? And I'd like to point out that one bad experience is statistically insignificant - there needs to be a preponderance of evidence.
carl425When a single 20 car train with 2 diesels can easily cost $1,000 or more, I find it hard to look at $36 as a big deal.
Thanks all for the suggestions, for me it was'nt about the cost I have about 10 sheets of the osb and a dozen sheets of the 2 in foam leftover from a job and figured if i could use some of it why not , but I got a piece of 5/8 finished ply from depot today and ripped a couple new 3 in strips out of it and can definitly notice a diffrence at that width
STEVE
RR_MelMy layout is 10' x 14', I built my helix 28 years ago from 3½" wide ¼” OSB and I haven’t had any problems with it. I braced it every 12” with 1" x 2" furing strips and it’s glued and screwed. Early on my garage (my layout area) wasn’t totally insulation and the garage would be well in to the hundreds in the summer. During winter the temperature would drop in to the low 30°s, a 70°+ temperature swing. I have since added R30 insulation and the temps now are between the upper 50°s to low 80°s. The OSB has remained the same as built 28 years ago.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
riogrande5761One thing I have noticed is that plywood is MUCH more expensive.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hello all,
The only problem I've had with OSB is the weight.
I replaced the 4'x8' sheet of 5/8-inch OSB with 1/4-inch C/D plywood with 1"x4" supports on 33-inch centers.
There is 1-inch blue foam over this sub-layer.
The weight savings was significant and it also allowed some under pike access as it sits on top of the bed in the computer/spare bed/train room.
No sag problems with the new substructure.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"