Hi everyone,
First post, so be gentle :-)
I'm planning my first layout and decided I'll ignore the advice to make the first one a simple one, so I'm planning on a double deck N-scale layout around 3 sides of a bedroom with a third "half" deck as a fiddle yard/storage area. I had been planning on making a helix to go between the levels, a long curving grade down to the fiddle yard and then an equally long one coming up elsewhere on the lower level (although I'm thinking I might be better to replace those slopes with another helix).
I'm finding various plans and how-tos on the web for the construction of the helix, however they usually use plywood. My question is - can I use a reasonably thick (2-2.5mm) sheet of steel instead? It seems that steel should hold up well, shouldn't warp if well supported and it'll save some "dead space" by being thinner. However I can also see that fixing the track in place will be more difficult than using plywood. Are there any other disadvantages that wiser and more experienced minds are aware of? Has someone been there and lived to tell the tale? I'd be grateful of any advice before I jump in.
Thanks
Rob Bolin Are there any other disadvantages that wiser and more experienced minds are aware of?
It was noisy as hell.
Always when I think back to that layout, that is what I remember. The sound reverberating off that plywood.
However I can also see that fixing the track in place will be more difficult than using plywood.
One of the members on here, Mark Bruton, used all-thread as a support for his helix (plywood). One of the advantages is that he could make micro adjustments to the track height.
I really can't see any advantage to steel. If you are worried about warping, get a good quality exterior grade plywood.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
You could make that work if you have metal working skills. For attaching caulk would work but I do beleive it would be noisey. Now what might work is the suport being metal, a comb structure with preset spacings.
I have never built a helix; but useing steel/metal bring to mind,cost, weight, extra support,specific skills and tools,possible loss of blood and shorts in wireing due to sharp edges. How ya gonna hold it? bolts and nuts,wield it?
You are free to do as you wish, if it were me I would rethink it
I built the helix on my layout using 12 all-thread columns and 1/2" plywood decking. N scale, 28.25" radius, 2% grade, 3.5" pitch.
Piece of cake. More than one naysayer, though. Well documented on my SNSR build thread and on my blog.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Thick enough sheet steel to not flex, while thinner than plywood, would be quite heavy, I think. Use good plywood, not super cheap 3 ply stuff, and it should be free from warp issues.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Spline, is the perfect solution for cheap roadbed that doesn't flex and it is cheap, cheap, cheap.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hey Batman, when tried to run your video, I got a string of phishing requests to access my computer. Most of them were characters instead of alphabet,
As far as steel, note that a slight deformation in thin sheet steel could cause derailments. By the time the steel is thick enough, it would be pretty heavy. Plywood works great. If one wants to explore exotic materials, Micore mineral board and Gatorboard (not typical foam core) have been used.
Spline is relatively deep. In my humble opinion not the ideal choice because of the extra clearance needed unless the radius can be very broad (and thus, the grade low).
Welcome to the forum and good luck with your layout.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Thanks Spacemouse. I had planned on using a some form of roadbed (not sure which at the moment). As far as exterior grade plywood, it'll cost me around 3 times as much as the steel I was thinking of
UNCLEBUTCH I have never built a helix; but useing steel/metal bring to mind,cost, weight, extra support,specific skills and tools,possible loss of blood and shorts in wireing due to sharp edges. How ya gonna hold it? bolts and nuts,wield it? You are free to do as you wish, if it were me I would rethink it
Thanks Unclebutch. As far as weight goes, I expect it would weigh an equivalent amount for a plywood helix, but it is an important factor to consider. I started thinking down this line as I have done a bit of metal fabrication previously (mostly making armour for medieval recreation to be honest) and have a number of useful tools already. I was thinking of using the threaded rod approach, which will also allow me to make slight adjustments. Maybe I'll use some advice in the Feb issue of MR - make the helix first and then build from there :-)
I did a little experimenting around with various ideas for building my 'external helix', ie;
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/30323?page=4
I've pretty much determined via research, that the roadbed of the helix can just be fashioned from a double thickness of 'tempered hardboard' (masonite) laid onto those little steel L-brackets. The brackets will be fairing close to one another (no long bridging spans) due to the fairly close spacing of the plastic or metal tube uprights around the circle. The 'ring frame' will likely be be bent out of 'electrical conduit'.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Lets see I need to find another one of these circular hoops of alum, or whatever,....or do I ?? I decide to look up where i might find hoops of metal or whatever,...and I run into this greenhouse site. They bend many types to tubes to built their greenhouses. http://www.hoopbenders.net/home.html .....there is even a good video of a lady bending these metal tubes https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=D2GzR-IOvLw WOW, now I can built my own metal hoops at the 60" dia I wanted in the first place,...and fabricated from galvanized metal electrical conduit. One hoop for the top, one hoop for the bottom, with the 8 vertical legs attached between the two hoops.
...masonite subroadbedhttp://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?40316-Building-a-Helix-with-PVC-Pipe&p=456224#post456224
HELIX of LION
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
See, Lion has it, the easy way. All these various schemes to use fixed uprights with some sort fo support glued, bolted, or welded on - much harder to keep a consistent grade. Lion has the easy way - and they did this for the Canadian Canyons project layout as well. Only the first turn of the helix needs any real precision to make a smooth grade, and allow for the transition from level (and the top exit needs to transition gradually from climbing to level). This translates into different height support blocks as you go around the loop. But after the first turn - EVERY spacer is the same height, regardless if you use 4 per loop, 6 per loop, or 12 per loop. Just cut dozens of identical height pieces, no special measuring or cutting. There should never be anything to adjust, with all identical pieces even if there IS some movement with humidity changes, it should be even all around.
One thing about spline is, it doesn't need the same amount of support that plywood does as it doesn't flex. This over 4' long piece has been in service for over ten years unsupported and has not sagged a mm.
railandsail Lets see I need to find another one of these circular hoops of alum, or whatever,....or do I ?? I decide to look up where i might find hoops of metal or whatever,...and I run into this greenhouse site. They bend many types to tubes to built their greenhouses. http://www.hoopbenders.net/home.html .....there is even a good video of a lady bending these metal tubes https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=D2GzR-IOvLw WOW, now I can built my own metal hoops at the 60" dia I wanted in the first place,...and fabricated from galvanized metal electrical conduit. One hoop for the top, one hoop for the bottom, with the 8 vertical legs attached between the two hoops.
Seems like way more work than to set the bottom turn and use spacers as rinker said, but knock yourself out.
CC
Sounds like a lot of work and I am not sure how rigid it would be when done. Why not just make two octagons out of 2" x 2" or 2" x 4", they will be a solid top and bottom.
I may not understand what you are trying to do.
BATMAN Sounds like a lot of work and I am not sure how rigid it would be when done. Why not just make two octagons out of 2" x 2" or 2" x 4", they will be a solid top and bottom. I may not understand what you are trying to do.
I didn't realize it was an "outdoor" helix. I am assuming it will be off the ground and you can access the track by popping up through the centre of it. Also, I am guessing it will be enclosed. Where do you live and what is the climate like? How will the enclosure be ventilated? Creating a hotbox or cold room will cause lots of problems with the track.
I like to think of myself as a bit of an innovator as I have built many things using designs and materials that were definitely outside the box.
Drilling into steel conduit can be a real bear, I suggest you get a bit and see how it goes. If you have a drill press and can drill the holes after it is curved, it may be easier. Either way you may (or may not) be going through a lot of drill bits.
Mounting those brackets to metal with just screws is a problem waiting to happen, they will work loose. 10/32 machine screws with Nyloc nuts would be a better choice.
How will the helix be mounted on the outside of the shed? Those shed walls tend to pop in and out as the temperature changes. I would think post on concrete blocks is the way to go making sure the track floats through the hole in the wall.
It is doable and I will be following with interest. Every time someone does something a little different, we all learn. Good luck.
rrinker Only the first turn of the helix needs any real precision to make a smooth grade, and allow for the transition from level (and the top exit needs to transition gradually from climbing to level). But after the first turn - EVERY spacer is the same height, regardless if you use 4 per loop, 6 per loop, or 12 per loop. Just cut dozens of identical height pieces, no special measuring or cutting. There should never be anything to adjust, with all identical pieces even if there IS some movement with humidity changes, it should be even all around.
Only the first turn of the helix needs any real precision to make a smooth grade, and allow for the transition from level (and the top exit needs to transition gradually from climbing to level).
But after the first turn - EVERY spacer is the same height, regardless if you use 4 per loop, 6 per loop, or 12 per loop. Just cut dozens of identical height pieces, no special measuring or cutting.
There should never be anything to adjust, with all identical pieces even if there IS some movement with humidity changes, it should be even all around.
This is how I built my helix. It worked great and I haven't had any problems in over a decade of use. I used cabinet (allegedly - HD product) grade 1/2" plywood for my roadbed. Easy to cut and relatively light compared to what I imagine stiff steel might weigh.
I am all for trying out new methods - but there is a lot of material on helix design and lots of examples of helixes that have been sucessfully built. It takes long enough to build a helix that personally I went with what has worked well for others as opposed to taking extra time experimenting to find a new path.
If you try steel, I would be interested in seeing what you come up with and how long the process takes.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I built mine from 1/2" Cabinet grade Birch, had the circles CNC cut by a local toy company that specializes in wood toys. I painted them white and assembled them on a 5'x5' frame. Once the first layer is set at the right grade (2.25% in my case) the rest is all 3.75" wood blocks.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206951792872481&set=pb.1808356170.-2207520000.1517535732.&type=3&theater
https://www.amazon.com/photos/all/gallery/pe78NdV8SHuPrUaKG1QcQw?ref=nav_youraccount_primephotos&pageIndex=0&timeYear=2017&lcf=time
Ooops! you have to have a Facebook thing to see this. Oh well.
Never built a helix, but from all that I've seen, the block thing seems the easiest, versus all the rods, clamps, rings, etc., etc., and it's the way I would go, with plywood of a good grade, or even homosote. And steel plates? Nope.
But, the OP says he's an artist with steel, after all, he repairs and creates armor! WOW, I've seen that at the local Renaissance Fair, and that is an art.
Anxious to see what he comes up with.
Mike.
My You Tube