The only issue with alternate versions of the branch line are that to be even slightly resembling the real thing, the branch has to come off in the direction of the benchwork edge, not towards the backdrop. I could possibly have it come off closer to the yard, there might then be enough space for it to either climb or burrow beneath the main and cut to the other side of the penninsula.
I've considered leaving most of the first turn of the helix exposed, but that would require an even larger radius for the firs turn and push the branch's curve out even further. There is a similar prototype arrangement (well, was, the tracks are all gone, but the retaining wall still stands) where one line climbs and curves away from another, with a wall between them and a fairly sheer mountainside behind the rising track. I will play around with it but I don't think I will be able to fit that in.
As it sits now - I could extend out the SECOND level of the helix and make it visible halfway up the hill - also good to help following your train. Otherwise, the end of the penninsula will be pretty bland. Since it has to hide a helix, it's tough to put any sort of natural slope to it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've never really liked how most ends of peninsulas are scenicked. No matter how big they are, the radius still looks too sharp in almost all cases. Yes, the uniform retaining wall would be unattractive, IMO.
Sheldon's idea is a good one.
How about a series of short tunnels? The curve of the branch line does not have to be a uniform curve like the helix, so you might be able to gain a few inches in places to help the tunnels and cuts look like they should.
Same goes for the narrow benchwork coming out of the yard. Google search Tom Johnson INRAIL and it will show you wonderful things he's done with space less than a foot between benchwork edge and backdrop. Again, a short tunnel could hide the narrowest part and the scene could gather depth as the track curves north towards the helix.
Being a branch line modeler, of course I would like to shorten the yard, bring the curve to the right and open up some space for a bigger industry or town buildings for the branch line where the inside turnback curve is. It would convey the notion there is a destination for the branch. But you'll probably not want to skimp on the yard.
- Douglas
rrinkerit is close enough to the helix that it would almost certainly all need to be retaining walls or similar.
How about a photo backdrop?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I have one idea for one of those issues.
Let the branch line go "off stage" with the mailine at the base of the helix, then let it reappear on the other side. The top of the helix will have scenery right? This would save some room in the size of the helix blob if no scenery was needed on the lower level there.
It would create a little more illusion of distance for the branch line.
Sheldon
Two things still concern me. One is having the branch come out around the outside of the helix - as I have it now, it is close enough to the helix that it would almost certainly all need to be retaining walls or similar. Don't really have a lot of formations like that around here.
Second is the main side of the penninsula, I made that fairly narrow, but I would like to have it wider than that, But without compromising the aisle - the benchwork is wider at the bottom because that was my place to locate the main yard, being the longest wall section. Thus the 4'+ aisle space there, as one or two people would always be syanding in that area working the yard, and through train operators on both levels would need to pass (upper level there will get no industries).
Just realized that with the orientation of the yard, the branch on the penninsula could easily be the S&L branch. I don;t think there was much traffic there in the mid 50's, but the line was active as far as Kempton until 1962. I could run it to Kempton, but the biggie would be the Evansville cement plant (meaning my short branch along the stairs would probably need a different industry than a cement plant). Making room for a cement plant on the penninsula - that may be difficult. Unless I put it int he corner where it comes around the helix, rest of the penninsula will then mainly be just rails rambling through the countryside with few customers between the cement plant and the end of the line at Kempton (present day WK&S tourist railroad runs on the line from Kempton north, but they didn't come into being until 1962, past my time frame).
rrinker So, did some more scratching arounf with the mouse. There are now benchwoork outlines (in red) and backdrop in the penninsul (blue). The helix is now 36" for the outer (uphill) and 33" inner (downhill) radius. That sucked up significant space, but clearances between the benchwork edges seem to indicate it should work. --Randy
So, did some more scratching arounf with the mouse. There are now benchwoork outlines (in red) and backdrop in the penninsul (blue). The helix is now 36" for the outer (uphill) and 33" inner (downhill) radius. That sucked up significant space, but clearances between the benchwork edges seem to indicate it should work.
For a double deck in that space, it seems like your best option. I think you will be a lot happier with the larger radius on the helix.
That benchwork section in front of it will be removable. Doesn't need much space, you'd be amazed at how small my furnace is. No need for swing away stuff - I'll just bolt it to the fixed pieces on either side and it will be easy enough to remove if needed. Both the furnace and water heater were only a year or two old when I moved in 3 years ago, so I have time.
How will you get into the furnace room, Randy? If you don't design in some way to get a furnace in and out, you'll be replacing it as soon as you finish trackwork blocking it, you know.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
That could work. The laundry isn't set back from the aisle - that IS the 'aisle' for getting in and out of the house and to the stairs. Can't go much wider at the turnback curve on the lower left. Alongside the stairs, I was planning to put another industry branch, so there wouldn't be 6 feet of aisle space, but it could go less than 4 feet.
By the drawing it looks like you have six feet between the left side of the helix blob and the blue wall by the stairs. Operationally, I'd think that would be simply a passing point betwen operators and not a station, so you might be able to make the blob bigger for bigger radii.
Same with the way the laundry room walls are tucked back 2 feet further from the aisle. It could allow you to widen the south turnback loop a bit into the aisle.
I just don't have the room for 36" curves everywhere. And I know from past layouts that everything I run handles 30" perfectly well - as in, they can even run at warp speed without problems. No 80' passenger cars or 85' flats/auto racks on my layout. There are several curves even in that quicky drawing that are well over 30" radius - the one that brings the main away fromt he wall on the right is somethign like 80", and the one that takes it back vertical is 48+. The curve in the penninsula before the helix end is also very broad, 60" or so. Plus the real thing will not have stick-straight main lines, so there will be plenty fo opportunity for some nice comsmetic curves to break up the absolute limits int he corners of the room. The helix as shown is 30" inner, 32" outer, but that has to be widened a bit - again past experiences tells me I need more than 2" center spacing even on a 30" radius with no real huge equipment. It also works out that the 30" inner side is the 'down' side, so there is already some lessening of curve effect on the 'up' side. Bumping it up a little more should work out well.
With it set up this way, I could actually have the line to the helix start climbing before it gets to the helix, which would reduce the number of turns needed int eh helix. And potentially have the upper level start above the branch rather than dirctly above the lower level main, so more vertical could be gained by having an open grade there, to the point where the helix would only need 1 1/2 turns. But that means to follow your train you would have to walk all the way back around to the other side of the penninsula.
Not shown here but on my original idea, which would have the penninsula come down from the top center, I had the staging loops drawn in. The mains here go into the wall under the stairs at the top center - on the other side they would loop around and connect to each other. One end of the dog bone. Above that would be the loop connecting the two upper main tracks, the upper staging and the other end of the dog bone.
Randy, a few thoughts.
Can you make the helix 36" radius? It is a big advantage in grade/preformance, I have designed and help build several for friends.
Will the lower level staging have a loop as well? I would.
After that, I would try to make all curves 36" or larger.
Here's what I was talking about. Running clockwise around the space from staging in the laundry room, winding penninsula out to the helix, and a branch line going around the outside of the helix and back towards the front door in the lower left.
It mostly just a quick thrown together thing, so the area around the helix start/brnach is actually just a #8 turnout on the one track and the other track running right over it, I have no plan to put a slip switch there. Minium radius anywhere is 30", the bulge on the lower right is because in that corner is where my water heater and furnace are. The whole thing will never have all the tracks parallel to the walls and benchwork like this. Most aisles are 4' and wider, some points may come down to 3 1/2 feet, still goood. The branch and the main on the penninsual will be seperated by a viewblock down the middle. I am also considering another branch along the stairway wall, maybe a one industry with multiple car types like a cement plant, which would leave the main not long after the track emerges from staging.
This is just the lower level, upper deck would follow the lowerback around the room and into the upper staging loop. Whole thing is just a giant dogbone. Though I MIGHT be able to live with just a single deck. What's draw is about 4.9 miles of track, but since all but the branch is double track, there's maybe a bit over 2 miles (scale) of main from staging to the end - I don't think I will be happy with that, hence the double deck idea.
The OK news, this new way replaces about 40 linear feet of track on each level (80 total) with 48 feet per level.
The great news - it also ADDS more than 40 feet of branch line, visually seperated by a backdrop from the rest of the layout.
And MR is Model Railroader, and GMR is Great Model Railroads (the other once a year one).
Had a few minutes so I fired up 3PI (that's Third PlanIt CAD) and drew some circles and started moving them around. I think this will work, and I should end up with a MUCH longer overalll main line run. PLUS it allows me to add a branch line.
A brief description (actually, the wye thing ends up having little or nothing to do with this, but thinkign about how to implement somethign similar made me look at the room ina different way). Up til now, all my ideas have been based on the layotu workign its way clockwise around my basement walls, with staging in the laundry room, halfway across the back wall, a long penninsula, then around the rest of the walls with the yard along the front wall (longest uninterrupted space) and then immediately past the yard, the helix to level 2. Repeat back the other way, to another staging loop stacked on top of the first.
The new idea retains the staging in the laundry room. Now there is no penninsula projecting from the back wall. The track follows around the permieter of the room, then goes back againinto the center, then turns up to the back where, across the aisle from the track runnign along the back wall, is the helix. The total length of this wandering penninsula should equal or exceed out and back on the original penninsula design, plus a branch going around the oustide of the helix could run back on the opposite side of the penninsula all the way back to the front wall of the house, making for a reasonably long branch line. Instead of along the front wall, the yard could be stretched out along the gentle mid-curve of the penninsula. This means at the helix end, the line branch line woudl head off to the right (layout edge) and the line to the helix would go to the left (towards the middle of the benchwork) and that would perfectly represent the actual yard arrangement.
Depending on grade, the branch could have staging either below the lower level, between the levels behind a removable backdrop, or as an elevator type thing (liek the Ro-Ro elevator) along the wall behind the lower front door. There's not enough space behind the door to do 3-4 tracks wide, but a staging elevator could be protected against someone slamming the door open.
I'll try to get the circles all connected so I can post a rough idea of what I'm talking about.
mbinsewiWould one of you gentlemen help me out here, what is the MRP ? Mike.
Mike.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
OK, thank you.
My You Tube
Model Railroad Planning, a Kalmbach publication.
Would one of you gentlemen help me out here, what is the MRP ?
Thank you,
Well, I have not seen the MRP, and I'm not sure I will buy it, but based on what you have described, I will make a few general comments.
Personally, I have never seen the wisdom in trying to selectively compress actual track arrangements and have only seen a few layouts were I thought it was done to any reasonably good effect.
As a DC operator, I decided years ago to keep all track arrangements left to right, meaning from the operators/viewers position, left is west/south and right is east/north.
Even with DCC, trains doubling back, or reversing viewed direction can confuse operators.
Wyes - I have always considered a wye the perfect staging entrance/exit, and one leg of a wye is the only time I like to use dead end staging. Even then a hidden loop is ideal.
Otherwise I prefer through staging.
I built a multi deck layout once........never again, at least not in the conventional sense that most multi decks are built. I ended up not liking it nearly as much as I thought I would.
I am currently starting a new layout, and I might preserve part of the existing upper deck as a completely seperate layout, not sure yet.
But the new layout will be built in small modules, typically 24" x 72", or 48" x 48" corners, etc.
It will not be to any modular standards, but does have built in "expansion" locations/possiblities.
When we retire it is very posssible I will have an even larger space. The idea is build this layout now, then move it to the new house loosing very little model work, and adjust and expand it to fit the new space.
Being self employed, and not having to rush in picking out the next house will provide the luxury of finding a suitable space.
I'm really tired of starting over........
The new layout is simple, double track twice around the room, looping out into the room on two peninsulas, only one lap is visable, the other lap is a series of hidden through staging yards. It fills a 25' x 40' room.
Along the visable lap there is a freight yard, engine terminal, passenger terminal, wye junction (to more dead end staging), swing bridge, and a flying junction.
Additionaly, nearly all industries are served by two industrial branch lines leaving the yard in both directions - only a very few industries are along the mainline.
Various extra cutoffs provide interchange connections to staging and double as display running connections for as many as four mainline trains on deticated loops.
The mainline will be fully signaled and CTC controlled. Staging will hold about 24 trains. The freight yard has 8 tracks close to 20' long.
Four trains can move around the main while other trains work the yard and industries. Independent control of up to 8 trains is possible.
Back to some general planning concepts:
In my current location, the main layout benchwork will only be about 40" above the floor. This is why I may consider saving part of the existing upper deck which is about 58".
I do have a multi deck idea for the future location.........
Raise the main layout up to 52" or 54", which is generally 3 to 4 feet deep scenicly (all visable trackage is within the front 2 feet, staging is under the rear scenery or behind backdrop).
Then add a lower "shadow box" level, set at 36" high, with a scenic depth of only 12" to 16". This would allow the helix to be under the main layout scenery, and not use up additional floor space.
This lower level would simply be a scenic run through, no operations.........
Just my thoughts on wyes and track planning. I feel my layout plan could be made to look like any one of a number of double track lines in the country, or could be converted to single track. It provides the common elements of a most division or sub division points on many Class I railroads.....
As usual - Byron's article. Not to take anything away from the others, an overall excellent issue, but Byron's articles are usually more focused on they why's of a particular design in realtion to the available space and the layout builder's desires and how they interact.
The way I usually approach an article like this is to read the intro to get an overview, and then flip to the track plan and see if I can figure out the reasoning behind why certain tracks go where they go. I was not disappointed in this one. That handling of the wye hit home for me - technically if I were to strictly follow the prototype, I'd have a similar arrangment. I just couldn;t figure out how to handle it within my space.
I DID have ideas I've come up with, to handle the myriad directions tracks went in Reading, with the lines I was going to model and then a decent way to handle the ones I wasn't, with staging to bring trains in from the unmodeled parts. Unfortunately my bnasement is just not the right size and shape to handle this, unless all I was to build would be the yard, and while I love yard operations, I think it would grow boring if ALL I had was a yard, with every train leaving or entering the yard just from staging tracks.
Along comes this article. All my plans thus far simply have the yard set after one lap of the lower level of the room from staging, then then immediately after, a helix to the upper level. The two lines I was intending to more or less model (fairly freelanced, not actual track arrangments except maybe in a switching area here or there) technically depart from the same end of the yard, not opposites.
I've been thinking of different ways I can arrange this. The killer is the complexity of my multi-zone heating system, meaning there is insufficient space to sneak a line behind the furnace, or I could sort of do in reverse what was done on the plan in MRP - bring the line for the upper level off the same end of the yard as the lower level, but have it curve back around and climb along the wall behind the yard to reach the second level - likely eliminating the helix. The lower level, I would loop the yard back on itself, likely with a small switching area under the line going to the upper level. Rouch estimating the distances available, I would be able to get nearly a full 18" rail to rail vertical seperation with a 2.5% or less grade. Disguising the track running along behind the yard might be the more difficult part - I'd rather not hide it all, but it's no more hidden track than would be in a helix, and it's tough to justify a visible track climbing in that area. Bonus, most of the grade would be on straight track. Also since I am restricted to relatively short trains so as to not overwhelm the layout space, a 2.5% grade shouls be no sweat.
I'm refraining from any detailed drawings for now, until I get the rest of the basement fully demo'd, as in starting to pull off sections of the old hideous paneling, I'm finding in some places I will gain some length, even after replacing the uninsultated 2x3 walls with properly insulated and drywall covered 2x4 walls since the existing walls are built out several inches from the block walls. But just the same, other areas I will loose an inch or two because the existing walls ARE built tight against the block foundation. So until the whole thing is gutted, my available space diagram is less than 100% accurate.