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Suggested layout plan for SNE

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SBX
  • Member since
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  • From: Ipswich, UK
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Suggested layout plan for SNE
Posted by SBX on Friday, April 21, 2017 1:55 PM

I have discarded the idea of using a switchback and also the idea of replacing it with two switches and a crossing. I have done some more work and come up with the proposed layout shown below. I haven't tried this with actual track you so it may be a bit ambitious - and it may leave no room for anything else. Hence, this is subject to major revision in the light of reality. However, it gives me a likely location for all of the industries for which I either have buildings or kits plus the services that it needs.

Remember the the town at the top is supposed to be the home of the Sunset and North Eastern Railroad, which is situated between Hartford and Boston (sort of where Worcester is now) and it runs as a feeder line between the two cutting off the need to go up to Springfield and across (remember also that I live in the UK so this is a load of old tosh...). The SNE has never needed turning facilities as it has always relied on those at either end of the run (we schedule trains so that the lonely F-7 is always facing in the right direction :-) There is a New Haven RDC and a B&M Passenger train each day in both directions plus the B&M schedules a through freight in each direction once a day. The SNE has no passeneger service itself and only runs way freights up and down the line.

The SNE has three locos - an F-7a, a GP9 and an SW7. The B&M runs its service with RS3s and the New Haven has a Budd RDC. If you want to see how this works, check out the prototype for my University project freight car routing system at http://www.tm470routingproject.co.uk  and go to the prototype link. You can see all of the defined trains, routes etc. there.

Anyway, here is my first proper thoughts.

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

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Posted by Doughless on Friday, April 21, 2017 2:52 PM

We obviously don't know the actual size, curve radius or turnout frog #s but the overall concept and arrangement looks fine to me.

You might find that you have a bit too many industries to switch relative to the number of yard storage tracks, resulting in some overcrowding and difficulty in finding places to park a cut of cars out of the way while switching.

Others might see the need for better balance and offer more specific guidance.

- Douglas

SBX
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Posted by SBX on Friday, April 21, 2017 3:11 PM

OK,I havebeen running a few freight operations passed this and I havecome to the same conclusions. I have removed a few industries and removed a coupleof spurs. I have added a switcher stand.The B&M passeger train is two 80' coaches so I have moved everything over to get a straight stand for these at the bottom left of Sunset.This keeps them out of the runaround. I think that, with the switcher stand and no passenger carsblocking thertunaround, switching should be easier. I have also re-arranged Webster and made that simpler. There is an additional benefit out of this - I don't need to purchase two new switchesto complete this. 

Thanks for illustrating some of the issues and causing the re-think. I still need comments on this.

David

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

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Posted by Doughless on Friday, April 21, 2017 3:36 PM

That will probably operate better.

I think it was John Armstrong who suggested to have at least one spur facing the opposite direction as the others to provide interest.  All of your spurs are currently either facing or trailing spurs depending on how the trains enter the layout.  Find a place to flip one and maybe its industry and that will provide more variety. 

I'm not into passenger trains so I can't offer any help there.

- Douglas

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Posted by bearman on Saturday, April 22, 2017 5:59 AM

I think you have too many spurs with too many industries.  There are two industries on every spur.  One thing you can do, is take that fuel depot/coal supplies turnout/spur and change the turnout to a LH turnout, Move it south and then run a spur NNW and place one of the industries on the east side of the spur.

You also may want to remove either the meet packing company or the ice company.  That is a pretty short spur and is still rather crowded in my opinion.

I would also remove the Greene's Feeds spur entirely.

 

Bear "It's all about having fun."

SBX
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  • From: Ipswich, UK
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Posted by SBX on Saturday, April 22, 2017 8:49 AM

I think that where I am getting confused is in two ways.

1. I have a collection of laser cut industries from my last layout plus a pile of unbuilt kits in my stash and I am trying to use them all as railroad fed locations. I think that I can just use a few as background.

2. I am thinking that the industries at Sunset have to feed the railyard there, whilst, of course, there are other towns down the line feeding into here from the daily way freights and these have to be shipped out to either Hartford or Boston.

I have taken your point about too many industries. I have removed Greene's feeds, even though it is a great model (see image below) and moved the switch to provide a dedicated freight house spur at Sunset.

This has eased out the spur with the Creamery and there is now only one industry on that spur. I have kept the ice house and the packers together as that makes sense. here is the current iteration.

BTW, the green area at the coal supplies indicates a dropped board so that the coal hoppers can drop through the rails into what we, in the UK, call "Coal Staithes".

 

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 22, 2017 11:56 AM

Don't know what the "switcher stand" does for you since you have a "loco storage" track right next to it, which is basically the exact same thing.  The only locos that have to be stored are any of the locals originating out of the yard and they would be the "switchers" themselves.

I would lose that since it really doesn't add any operational value and convert its space into an additional yard track.

I don't know that you have actually identified what the operation is.  Do the trains that serve the industries at both stations originate out of the yard or just the industries on the top and the industries on the right out of staging?

If the industries on the right are served out of staging there is no limit on how many you can have.

Dave H. Painted side goes up.

SBX
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Posted by SBX on Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:27 PM

OK. Firstly, I live in the UK so my ideas might always be at odds with reality. The switcher stand is a place for the switcher on duty to sit between trains so that it doesn't affect the train locos coming and going for servicing. Should I discard this? 

The railroad main route is Hartford - Sunset - Webster - Boston - with stations in between. So when way freights come in from the Hartford staging they may have serviced many industries along the way. They will terminate at Sunset so some cars will be routed back to Hartford (UP cars or some such when empty).

Trains coming off the Boston staging will also have collected cars from stations in between and will service Webster as they come through. In the same way, a way freight going from Sunset to Boston will service Webster. I assume that only B&M cars would be sent, empty, back to Boston.

The routing of freight cars will be managed by my University project, once I graduate this September. At that time, the intermediary stations willall contribute to cardistribution.

I hope that that helps.

David

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, April 22, 2017 2:35 PM

You really need to draw to proper scale.  Based on counting the grid lines, it looks like you are using #2 turnouts, which would be a bad idea even if they were commerically available.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

SBX
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Posted by SBX on Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:03 PM

My Peco #5 switches ar 205mm long and each square is 100mm x 100mm. It may not be accurate but it is near enough.I did lay it out on the boards as well.

Davidf

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:31 PM

SBX
My Peco #5 switches ar 205mm long and each square is 100mm x 100mm. It may not be accurate but it is near enough.I did lay it out on the boards as well.

Davidf

That's good to hear because the Webster station track angles are problematic as drawn.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:07 PM

SBX
The railroad main route is Hartford - Sunset - Webster - Boston - with stations in between. So when way freights come in from the Hartford staging they may have serviced many industries along the way. They will terminate at Sunset so some cars will be routed back to Hartford (UP cars or some such when empty). Trains coming off the Boston staging will also have collected cars from stations in between and will service Webster as they come through. In the same way, a way freight going from Sunset to Boston will service Webster. I assume that only B&M cars would be sent, empty, back to Boston.

I personally wouldn't terminate anything at Sunset its too small.

You have more or less 6 potential blocks:

  • Hartford and beyond
  • Industries between Hartford and Sunset
  • Sunset
  • Webster
  • Industries between Webster and Boston

And you only have 2 tracks to put all that in and sort it out.  Distilling it down to the most basic blocks you would have 3 blocks and 2 tracks:

  • Everything west of Sunset
  • Sunset and Webster
  • Everything east of Webster

You could also simplify things by making all outbound cars go out in one direction and all inbound cars come from one direction.  All the cars for Sunset and Webster come in on one train and all the outbound cars leave on one train (regardless of where they go)  A train from Boston brings the cars to Sunset.  A car from the UP would go to Boston, get on the "transfer train", then go to Sunset where the local would spot them.  There is an outbound car from an industry going to the UP, the Sunset local pulls it brings it back to Sunset, then puts it on the "transfer train" that takes it to Boston, from Boston it catches a train to whereever its going.

Also don't fall into the thought that all cars inbound are loads and all cars outbound are empties.

 

 

Dave H. Painted side goes up.

SBX
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  • From: Ipswich, UK
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Posted by SBX on Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:20 PM

I know - that is why this thread is called "suggested layout". Tomorrow, I start to lay out the points on theboards and maybe I findthat you are right. I hope not - grin.

David

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

SBX
  • Member since
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  • From: Ipswich, UK
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Posted by SBX on Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:22 PM

I appreceiate the complications but I only have what I have and I made up a back story before I started. Likely, the back story will meet reality!

It will befun finding out:-)

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

  • Member since
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Posted by bearman on Saturday, April 22, 2017 4:59 PM

[quote user="SBX"]

I think that where I am getting confused is in two ways.

1. I have a collection of laser cut industries from my last layout plus a pile of unbuilt kits in my stash and I am trying to use them all as railroad fed locations. I think that I can just use a few as background.

2. I am thinking that the industries at Sunset have to feed the railyard there, whilst, of course, there are other towns down the line feeding into here from the daily way freights and these have to be shipped out to either Hartford or Boston.

I have taken your point about too many industries. I have removed Greene's feeds, even though it is a great model (see image below) and moved the switch to provide a dedicated freight house spur at Sunset.

This has eased out the spur with the Creamery and there is now only one industry on that spur. I have kept the ice house and the packers together as that makes sense. here is the current iteration.

BTW, the green area at the coal supplies indicates a dropped board so that the coal hoppers can drop through the rails into what we, in the UK, call "Coal Staithes".

 

 

"I have a collection of laser cut industries from my last layout plus a pile of unbuilt kits in my stash..."

You are not the only one in that situation.  Greene's is a nice kit.  Your explanation of the ice company makes sense, I didnt relzie it was an ice house.  I have the same situation on my layout, only in reverse.

You have two freight houses, understanding about the surfeit of kits and structures, why not just bag one of them.  And, with respect, I cant think in millimeters.

 

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, April 22, 2017 6:34 PM

SBX
My Peco #5 switches ar 205mm long and each square is 100mm x 100mm.

The issue is not with the length of the turnout.  It is the diverging angle.

If you look at the top left hand turnout, you have it drawn coming down 1 square and going left 2 squares.  That makes it a #2.  A #5 should come down 1 square and go left 5 squares.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:54 PM

I did a quick layout in XTrakcad maintaining the width 600 mm (1.97 feet).

The length shown for the layout is 2700 mm  (8.86 feet).  Using #5 turnouts the length would have to be at least 3963 mm (13 feet).     

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

SBX
  • Member since
    March, 2008
  • From: Ipswich, UK
  • 93 posts
Posted by SBX on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 1:53 PM

Right, I have some track down now so we know what we have got. Firstly, you were right about the space taken. I rethought the passenger facility. I moved it onto the passing loop and moved the first switch right up to the edge of the board. This eased the problem of the loop going too far to the right. Anyway, this is what I have now (please ignore the switches on the Webster plan as these are just thoughts and not plans).

 Here are some images to show where we are and to open up the next discussion, hopefully.

Firstly a shot down the first board.

The new problem is what to do with the industries. I laid it outlike this first off.

The building at the bottom is the meat packers. They are built hard up against the track at the bottom. They have to have room for a loading platform and a small stockyard (for stock cars to unload). They need a loading platform  on the track because the one on the building has an overhanging roof and freight cars can't get under if the platform is up to the track. I didn't like this as I have a nice creamery building in the pile. So, I had another go:

The ice house has one more builidng to be added - the one that makes the ice but I have still to build that so it will be a bit longer. The track with the Peco label will eventually curve a bit round onto the next board where I will put the Creamery kit that I have in the stash.

The last image is one that agrees with the plan at the top.

I won't be laying any track acrossto the new board until that can be left down.

OK, off we go. What does everyone think?

 

Long Haired David
A.K.A. David Pennington
main man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.
from the UK

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: In the heart of Georgia
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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 7:28 PM

If your staging track to the left is long enough and open most of the time, I would use it as a switch lead to switch the industries.  I think if you originated the Ice and Creamery siding off of the Freight House siding instead of the middle of the runaround, the layout would operate better.  It might also give you slightly longer spur tracks.

- Douglas

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