I'm using this 12x18 bracket mounted upside down to cantilever a 24" 2x3 to support the front edge of my upper level 1x3 grid. The 2x3 will be placed on top of the flange.
Should I put the 12" or the 18" leg of the bracket against the wall?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Short leg against the wall. The long leg sticking out. However if you mount it upside down you lose the physics which make it strong, the leg against the wall pushing into the wall is what makes it strong. Upside down you are pulling away from the wall. It might still be strong enough if your anchors are strong and it doesn’t have to hold too much weight.
For the weight I expect you will be putting on it, I doubt it will make a lot of difference. I would even doubt the need for a 2x3, but that's up to you.
The brackets I am planning on using have a weight rating, available from my hardware store that sells them. If you can find that information, I expect either direction is strong enough for your purposes.
I am assuming your brackets are all being screwed to studs, I'd use longer screws into the wall than into the cross piece.
Just my thoughts, no technical information.
Good luck,
Richard
Hi,
Definitely put the smaller side against the wall. You want as much of the width of the benchwork supported (directly) as possible.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe However if you mount it upside down you lose the physics which make it strong, the leg against the wall pushing into the wall is what makes it strong. Upside down you are pulling away from the wall. It might still be strong enough if your anchors are strong and it doesn’t have to hold too much weight.
However if you mount it upside down you lose the physics which make it strong, the leg against the wall pushing into the wall is what makes it strong. Upside down you are pulling away from the wall. It might still be strong enough if your anchors are strong and it doesn’t have to hold too much weight.
Steel is stronger in tension than compression, so it will actually be stronger upside down. I am referring to the (non-internet) web, which is where it will fail if overloaded.
And you're pulling away from the wall at the top whether or not it's upside down.
I suspect it doesn't matter, but my inclination is to put it "long ways out".
I would also recommend using some pretty large lag bolts into the wall, say 3/8" or so. And hope you don't hit any wires when you do the install. In theory, wiring will be installed so that there is at least 1 1/4" of wood between it and the stud edge. So maybe using 2" max length bolts might be wise. Plus a washer or two. Actually, only the top bolt needs to be the strong one. All the others are kind of along for the ride.
Ed
There will be more leverage against the strength of the material comprising the web when the long flange is perpendicular to the wall and offering the wider shelf depth for the user. In both cases, long or short flange against the wall, the greatest withdrawing force against the securing fasteners driven into the wall will be at the top hole. Compression will be greatest at the bottom of whichever flange is against the wall.
I think a person should mount the bracket with serviceability in mind. Do you have a heavy surface in mind? Then mount the long flange against the wall. If you would like a lighter mounting offering a deeper operating surface for structures and various rail geometries, then have the shorter flange against the wall.
Thanks for all the responses.
The primary reason for the 2x3 is because the staggered hole pattern in the flanges requires a 2-by if I want all the screws to hit wood.
I agree with those that point out that the weight on the shelf will try to pull out the top screw regardless of orientation.
I'll be attaching to the studs 60+ inches from the floor. I can't imagine why there would be any wires through that stud. My plan is to use 4x1/4" lag screws.
This particular bracket is made to hold up granite counters, so I'm inclined to go along with the suggestions that it probably doesn't matter. Since the shorter leg will be easier to hide, I'll put that one against the wall.
I'm pretty well convinced that whatever question you have can be answered by the brain trust on this forum. I constantly find myself resisting the urge to post non-MR questions.
According to Home Depot, the long end of the bracket attaches to the wall, and the short end supports the load:
http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_install_shelf_brackets_HT_PG_SO
I'd still put the short end on the wall and take advantage of the long end to get greater width beneath the horizontal shelf for cantilevering out.
The weak spot is not going to be the bracket or the 2x3, but rather the screws into the wall. As you've described it, with good, solid, long screws going into the studs, I think you've got it covered.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I use this same bracket. Its load rating is far higher than you will ever need. If the screws engage the studs well then you have no worries regardless of orientation. I used #14 x 2-1/2" phillips panhead screws. You can sit on my benchwork without it budging.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
I got down on 1/4" lag bolts when I twisted the head off of one when I was installing it. Hence my infatuation with 3/8" lags.
I have had pretty good luck with #14 hex head sheet metal screws. I think they might make them of a bit fiercer metal so as to easily cut into sheet metal. And you can run them in with a 5/16" hex bit in your drill.
I'm glad there's not problem with wiring inside the wall. It's not something you want to inadvertently discover.
Unless you are making your scenary with concrete, that will be plenty overkill for the load. 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 #10 screws will be ok. Just don't use dry wall screws, they tend to be brittle. I prefer square drive or star drive. You may need to predrill holes for the screws to drive easier.
jim
Unless you're planning to dance on your benchwork the short side against the wall will be plenty strong enough.
When I mounted my shelf bracket tracks I made sure I was centered on the wall studs (used a stud finder to locate them) and installed them using 3 1/2 inch deck screws (left over from assembling an 800 square foot deck) in pre-drilled holes. I've loaded them to as much as 100 kilograms when pulling up from the floor, and they haven't shown any sign of strain. The only problem will be forming believable scenery over the bracket webs.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I used welded brackets made from 1½" angle iron for the vertical members and 1" angle iron for the horizontals. The vertical shown below is 7" long, while the horizontal is 25" long. They're attached to the studs with ¼"x4" lag bolts and easily support the layout and most of my weight leaning on it while installing track, too...
Most of the other ones used are 7"x31", and this one, installed on an outside corner, has a 20" vertical member supporting a 25" arm in one direction and a 31" horizontal at 90° to the first:
The vertical member is mostly hidden behind the Masonite backdrop, curved to disguise the corner:
Wayne
7j43kAnd hope you don't hit any wires when you do the install.
Most stud sensors these days have wiring detection, even modestly priced ones. I own one, but that said, I've been attaching things to studs for years and have never clipped a wire. I do avoid mounting brackets near an outlet or switch, though. And wires run through studs are often a foot or two off the floor, though that's nowhere near universal.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority, run through Amtrak and CSX Intermodal
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
Canalligators And wires run through studs are often a foot or two off the floor, though that's nowhere near universal.
And wires run through studs are often a foot or two off the floor, though that's nowhere near universal.
True. I tend to run them about 3 feet up.
When I finished our basement in preparation for the railroad I installed nail stops on the studs where wiring passed through regardless of the pass-through depth from face. The contractor used them when they built our house so it seemed fitting to do the same when I put up drywall in the basement. Now, for me and any future owner there is some degree of protection from piercing wires.
lifeontheranch When I finished our basement in preparation for the railroad I installed nail stops on the studs where wiring passed through regardless of the pass-through depth from face. The contractor used them when they built our house so it seemed fitting to do the same when I put up drywall in the basement. Now, for me and any future owner there is some degree of protection from piercing wires.
This is exactly right. The inch and a quarter electrical code is there for a reason. Electricians use one inch whole Hogs to drill for a wire Chase to meet code. Being a lifetime Carpenter and a license builder for most my life. I can share some insight on this. The likelihood of a nail or a screw piercing a wire in a one-inch hole is extremely minimial. I've had this conversation with my electricians more than once. A number 10 two inch or two and a half inch construction screw will be more than adequate. A lag bolt could overtake the one-inch hole and squish the wire causing a short. If you want to be for sure file the tip of your screw that would make it impossible to pierce a wire The top screw on the angle bracket is the only Fastener that really does anything the rest of the bracket underneath that Fastener acts as a fulcrum. The more weight the harder it pushes into the wall. As someone else said you're not dancing on it but I favor puttung the long end of the angle bracket on the wall and capping the top of it with an L Channel or a c channel extension to support your benchwork. A 2x2 metal stud should be more than suffice. And they're reasonably cheap. And at the same token the hole closest to the wall where you put a nut and bolt in the 2x2 metal stud does all the holding power. The rest acts as a fulcrum as well. At that point just drill up through the holes in the angle bracket and the metal stud we're needed to attach your bench work. Hope that helps. Have some fun with it.
You know i've been known to over kill things especially Hardware. There's a good reason for that I don't get called back on jobs for something going wrong. I looked at that bracket again this morning that's pretty heavy duty. On second thought I think you'll be fine putting the small end on the wall as others said.
I think the big box stores sell brackets for shelving, with no idea if people are going to store a few yard chemicals or the heads from a Chevy 350. Long edge on the wall is stronger, simply because the projecting lever arm is relatively shorter. It's just Newtonian physics. (I knew that Physics degree would come in handy one day.)
That said, I tend to overbuild. And as for never returning to fix work, I learned very early on with my trim carpentry, that you just always do the work as best you can. That way you can be more confident that you've satisfied the customer.
A reason to put the short side against the wall is that there will be less bracket showing that has to be scenery-ed "around".
To add to this, I would L girder the bracket with a 1x2 and 1x3 bolted into the top. Extend this the length of your self depth. Or is that what your 2x3 is? I was a bit confused by your explination.If you can get a lag bolt in there it would be good.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffinOr is that what your 2x3 is?
Yes, the 2x3 will extend the horizontal leg of the bracket to the front of the shelf. The 2x3 will be attached to the front edge of the grid with 3 or 4 pocket screws.