I'm sure experienced folks can make the Woodland Scenics ballast work, but I figure since I'm a novice, I'd like to stack the deck in my favor. Just sayin!
I have already practiced spreading the Scenic Express natural rock ballast and found I was able to spread it and shape it quite easily using some foam paint brushes and soft brushes.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Sufficient use of the wetting agent is the key to preventing the Woodland Scenics stuff from floating, I think, as I've never had problems with it floating. I'm one of the not-in-a-rush wet-water proponents, so am unqualified to comment on a solution if you're using alcohol as the wetting agent.I recently tried real rock ballast on some of the track on the upper level of my layout, and was pleased with the results - it got the same pre-soaking ritual as the WS stuff, as it's quite deep in some places...
I did find, though, that it was more difficult to spread around and to level, as it tends to "lock" together, much as does real ballast.
Wayne
richhotrain riogrande5761 For the purposes of wetting, and then dry time, I would think that would be more important in some scenery applications but for ballasting, I don't think I would want my wetting agent to quickly evaporate - and drying time doesn't seem like it would be as critical - so it makes sense to use a detergent wetting agent for ballasting. Maybe for real rock, but when ballasting with Woodland Scenics, you need to pre-wet the ballast with alcohol so that the glue/water mix can be evenly absorbed. Rich
riogrande5761 For the purposes of wetting, and then dry time, I would think that would be more important in some scenery applications but for ballasting, I don't think I would want my wetting agent to quickly evaporate - and drying time doesn't seem like it would be as critical - so it makes sense to use a detergent wetting agent for ballasting.
For the purposes of wetting, and then dry time, I would think that would be more important in some scenery applications but for ballasting, I don't think I would want my wetting agent to quickly evaporate - and drying time doesn't seem like it would be as critical - so it makes sense to use a detergent wetting agent for ballasting.
Maybe for real rock, but when ballasting with Woodland Scenics, you need to pre-wet the ballast with alcohol so that the glue/water mix can be evenly absorbed.
Rich
Yes, and I'm using real rock Scenic Express natural stone ballast and purposely avoiding Woodland Scenic's ballast because of its composition (crushed walnut shells?) and propensity to "float". I figure I might as well tip the scales to making a job that many find unpleasant or tedious a little easier.
Alton Junction
Geared SteamThis stuff doesn't really require all these complicated choices and opinions from the "consensus" just pick one and do it. It's scenery, pretty hard to screw up if you have a good eye for nature.
Exacty
I use alcohol as a wetting agent because it flows very well into the scenery, evaporates quickly, which makes the dry time much quicker. This is the main advantage over wet water.
I have used both white glue and scenic cement, I haven't noticed any difference one way or the other.
I would reason that on the "other" threads where the "consensus" is wet water, it's most likely the reason is because it's cheaper. In the end, we all pretty much get the same results, scenery that is fixed to the layout.
This stuff doesn't really require all these complicated choices and opinions from the "consensus" just pick one and do it. It's scenery, pretty hard to screw up if you have a good eye for nature.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm not a big fan of airbrushing in the train room especially not with a solvent based paint. With acrylic paint you still have ultrafine particles of paint that can land on walls and flooring as well as easily inhaled. Rattle cans have bigger particles and are quicker if you are weathering track, but it's still solvent based paint.
Yes I have done both in the past and without obvious immediate side effects. It's the long term side effects that can kill you.
I do have a pancake style Porter compressor. It is a vast improvement of the tiny Badger compressor and is useful for tire inflation. The small compressors are no good for sand blasting cabinets or impact wrenches.
EDIT Forgot glue. On one of the MRVP videos Cody or David said that they use scenic cement over white glue because in their world time is money. I expect they get a discount on the scenic glue as well.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
riogrande5761BTW, considering film is going the way of the wooly mammoth, is this Kodak fotoflow something thats going to remain available for those who want to see what it's all aboot? Or is it going away as film goes away?
You can still get Kodak "Photo-Flo 200". It's around $20/16 oz (amazon, etc have it), but that's a lifetime supply. Lost track of my bottle somehow and no more photo shops around here, so that's when I gave alcohol a try and never looked back.
While I like the superior wetting characteristics by volume of alcohol, what I find most appealing is that its fast evaporation allows quickly working in multiple layers of texture.
I tend to use 90%, which accelerates things further, but 70% is sometimes good when you don't want as fast a dry, such as when layering in textures. Once the "ground" is wet with adhesive and 70%, you can dust in stuff over that, then mist with 90% lightly and the adhesive moves UP by capilary action. This let's delicate stuff lie unmoved mostly until it dries. Typically, I only do that in an area that would tend to be a wetland anyway and just move fast in a small area while using 90% most of the time.
Since everything is (briefly) wetted together in multiple fine layers, you actually end up using less of everything else wet that you apply. Depending on what your scenic base is, this can matter in terms of it's physical strength or simply may matter in terms of limiting drip through if you find that becoming a problem. It also tends to limit that whitish deposit left around where matte medium dries. If you do get that, a quick mist of alcohol and light brushing will take it off on ties, for example.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman I'm not sure consensus is the right word here. Maybe "many people use water and detergent" and are patient enough to let things dry for hours.
I'm not sure consensus is the right word here. Maybe "many people use water and detergent" and are patient enough to let things dry for hours.
Consensus is how I saw the feedback lining up in terms of what worked the best as a wetting agent - based on numerous comments I was reading here. Those folks didn't qualify whether it took longer to dry or not, but they felt it worked best. I suppose the readers will have to decide for themselves whether other factors like drying time, oder or other things make a difference one way or the other.
It's up to posters to try to come up with a convincing arguement to promote their favorite method and let the cards fall where they may. Paper or plastic, Alcohol or detergent. I'm not vested in either method and not bothered whether a reader goes with one or the other, only reporting on the consensus devoid of other factors.
BTW, considering film is going the way of the wooly mammoth, is this Kodak fotoflow something thats going to remain available for those who want to see what it's all aboot? Or is it going away as film goes away?
riogrande5761For what it's worth, from some past in-depth discussions on scenery adhesives, there does seem to be a consensus here that using a "wet water" using a few drops of dish detergent makes a better wetting agent than using alcohol.
While alcohol is certainly more expensive than water + soap, far less is needed, just a good mist over what needs wetting. And it evaporates within minutes, allowing the scenicking process to proceed quickly and with little or no interruption. If the substance being adhered is very fine to scale size, alcohol misting is far less likely to disturb how you've arranged things before it gets bonded.
I say this based on experience. Used to use wet water, then stepped up to Kodak Photoflo, as it left absolutely no possibility of suds and was more effective with less water. It got hard to find, because people -- guess what? -- don't develop much film anymore. Then some insightful articles in the NG&SL Gazette put me onto alcohol, along with some positive reports from fellow narrowgaugers about how well the alcohol worked, not just for dealing with matte medium, but with most water-based adhesives.
Yeah, there's a few things that you want to keep alcohol away from, but it's often things you don't want wet with water either, so six of one, half-dozen of the other on that, like your nicely weathered rolling stock, etc.
Then there's the fact that if you want something permanent, like ballast, you can accomplish this by using matte medium on it, which still allows the water-soluble methods to be used overall for additional detailing. The only time I had an issue with this was misting one side of a reefer that had been shot with Dull-Cote, but the effect actually turned out to be an interesting example of weathering -- by accident.
Probably shouldn't forget Tacky Glue and its variants. Tacky Glue is great for planting bushes and tufts of grass. It's more resistant than white glue to water solubility, but still allows for that, but less resistant than matte medium. Think of this as a spectrum of adhesives, like there are different melting point solders to progressively attach various detail parts to a boiler without loosening the stuff previously applied.
Truth is, there's no ideal universal adhesive or method of application for scenic needs. Try them all, then adopt what works best for your scenic needs, which tend to be regionally specific to a prototype. You'll likely find that having multiple choices serves your needs better, as there are just so many variations possible in sticking one thing to another.
For what it's worth, from some past in-depth discussions on scenery adhesives, there does seem to be a consensus here that using a "wet water" using a few drops of dish detergent makes a better wetting agent than using alcohol. I am in the earlier stages of scenery having gotten down the base color and texture so I plan on trying it myself and will comment on it after I have done some of it.
I have a couple of full bottles of matt medium I purchased some years back that are still unopened and also white glue so I can try them and see how that goes too.
Woodland Scenics is matte medium as others have stated.
When I first entered the HO scale side of the hobby, the guys at my LHS suggested matte medium rather than white glue such as Elmers.
Matte medium is four times as expensive as white glue, but what I like about matte medium is that it can be dissolved by rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl alcohol) which evaporates quickly while white glue is dissolved by water which evaporates much more slowly.
When it comes time to remove matte medium that has dried on the layout, it is a lot less messy to dissolve matte medium with alcohol than it is to dissolve white glue with water.
Also, alcohol evaporates more quickly than water when it is applied to ballast or ground cover, so you can finish your "landscaping" sooner with matte medium than you can with white glue.
When preparing the initial mix for landscaping purposes, both ballast and ground cover, I have found through experimentation that a 4:1 mix is sufficient. So, I add 4 parts water to 1 part matte medium.
Now, you may ask, why not use alcohol instead of water to the mix? Good question. You could use alcohol instead of water, but alcohol is more expensive than water and it leaves an odor until it evaporates, so I use water in the mix.
What I do is to mix matte medium and water to prepare a diluted mix, but I precede the application of the mix with a spray of rubbing alcohol on the area to be worked in order to facilitate the absorption of the mix.
Once the mix dries, it can be removed at a later date, if so desired, by applying undiluted rubbing alcohol directly to the area. I have used this technique to remove ground cover from the layout and ballast from the track.
starman ...is there any difference between “scenic glue” and diluted white glue?....
As has been mentioned, yes, the price is the main difference. Many things sold as hobby products are actually repackaged versions of things you can find elsewhere for less money. Go with the white glue for scenery. If you use sufficient wetting agent prior to applying the diluted white glue, you'll have no worries about a glossy finish.I usually mix the glue with an equal or slightly greater amount of tap water. If your local water is especially hard, use distilled water. It's available in gallon jugs at any supermarket and is cheaper than alcohol. You can also use water from a dehumidifier, but before doing so, be sure to clean the collection bucket thoroughly, as they often get pretty grungy with longtime use.Get a good quality sprayer that emits a fine mist, then fill it with water and add a few drops of liquid dish detergent - wet water. Use it generously before applying the dilute white glue.
Many modellers do use alcohol as a wetting agent, but it may affect water-based paints applied to ties or rail if you're using it for ballasting. I avoid it because of the odour, and while some like its fast-drying properties, I'm not in that much of a rush.
When you apply the dilute glue mixture, use an applicator that allows you to apply drops in a controlled manner - plastic ketchup or mustard dispensers may work well if the opening is not too large.
For making trees, I use mostly natural twigs as armatures. After painting them a dark grey, add well-stretched swatches of poly-fibre, mist it with un-scented super-hold hairspray in a pump-type applicator, and sprinkleon ground foam of your choice. The gentler spray of the pump applicator is less likely to denude your tree of polyfibre, and any material left in the applicator when it begins to run out can be dumped into the next sprayer. I use Finesse - its cheap and works great.
There's a bit of information on tree-making HERE
starman...Second, what advice do you have about setting up an airbrush system for landscaping?...
There's no reason why you can't use an airbrush for landscaping purposes, but it's not needed for applying ground cover or ballast. You could use it to add weathering to ballasted track or otherwise finished roads, though, or to add highlights to things such as rock mouldings.
Scenery is one of those "read-up-on-it-a-bit-then-jump-right-in sorta-things". You'll have lots of fun and learn all sorts of things, and it doesn't need to cost too much, either.
starmanFirst, is there any difference between “scenic glue” and diluted white glue?
Depends. Are you talking about Woodland Scenics or other proprietary products when referring to "scenic glue"?
Matte medium has already been mentioned. You can dilute it to suit (generally, I go a very rough 50/50) with water, then once it's set water doesn't affect it much. You'll then need alcohol to break it loose. That's important, because you can put some stuff down like ballast and roads, fix them with matte medium, let dry, then you can go over and around that with water based fixatives without breaking the stuff fixed with matte medium loose.
I'm with the others in noting not much use for an airbrush when doing scenery, althought therre's some things that it could be used for. One thing that comes to mind is that scenery is a good place to practice your airbrush skills, because the consequences of a goof are pretty low compared to painting a loco or something.
Consider giving plain old acrylics a try. They're cheap (you can get fancy, but for scenery that's usually overkill), can be easily mixed and thinned with water to suit you needs, apply with a brush, clean up quickly, and are pretty forgiving overall.
Honestly the only thing I ever considered using my airbrush for scenery-wise was to airbrush the track - i.e. paint it some the ties and rail don't look like model train track (shiny nickel silver rail sides and plastic black ties). After reading some come helpful comments by Rob Spangler, it made a heck of a lot more sense to buy the rattle can of Rustoleum Camoflauge Brown and spray the track with that - I did and am pleased with the results.
I do have a Harbor Freight pancake compressor and a couple of Paasche air brushes (H and VL) but so far have mainly used them to weather or paint rolling stock.
As Butch noted, you'll get ten different people tell you ten different things about glue mix ratio's and eventually you'll just have to dive in and try. I've got both matt medium and white glue at home so I'll probably experiment and see what works best.
IMO the difference is price. Not sure why you would need an airbrush, I picture blowing every thing every where.
There are many many howto's writen and utube. If you ask 10 modelers, you will get at least 12 ways. I belive its a learn as you go thing. Read/watch to get basic idea and start, its fun.
Only advice I would give is to do small plots at a time,acoulpe sq.feet. That way if you don't like the results your won't have to tear out as mutch.
As to an airbrush, I got a starter kit from Chicago Airbrush, came with every thing I needed to get started, still learning
I'm guessing by scenic glue you may be referring to matt medium, which is a glue that dries with a "matt" or flat finish; white glue can dry with a glossy finished, which if visible, can be distracting and unrealistic. Using white glue doesn't guarantee a glossy finish - many dilute it down to half, 1/3rd, even 1/5th concentrations for gluing scenery materials or ballast and it looks ok.
I haven't seen very many people set up a compressor and airbrush for scenery purposes - thats usually used mainly for painting models. I don't think it's considered a must; I have a compressor but so far have never used it for scenery.