Thanks to Rob Spangler for sharing his methods with acrylic paints to get a river bottom painted. I mixed up three small batches of acrylic paint to represent 3 major shades by trial and error and then blended them for the following results. The photo's are a bit over exposed - new LED lights above.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
That looks pretty darn good to me, with the shallower water where it would normally occur. I would think Rob to be a good source of scenic advice, based on the photos of his layout which he's posted here.
Are you going to pour a two-part water product over that, or simply apply a clear gloss finish?
Wayne
Yes. Streams deposit sediment on the insides where the flow is slower and erode the bottom deeper on the outer sides of a bend where it is faster and there is more load capacity (IIRC from geomorphology class) and if you've canoed a lot you can observe this too.
IIRC Rob only applied one layer of gloss Mod Podge and it looked great so thats the plan. Following his blog will jab it with a brush while it is wet so it will have ripples after drying.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Jim,
That looks like a great start on the river depths. I also really like the geometry of your depiction of the curving river and the track that skirts it, an identifiable feature of this part of the line.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
riogrande:
The river 'depth' looks quite realistic! Your scene is off to a great start.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
One suggestion make the banks less parallel so not to look like a canal.
tomkat-13:
tomkat-13One suggestion make the banks less parallel so not to look like a canal.
I understand your point, but I'm not sure that the river needs to be changed. The top starts out fairly narrow and the bottom actually flares out quite widely. I agree that the banks in the center portion are almost parallel but the shot is taken from overtop of the benchwork. That is not the perspective from which most people will see the scene. I think the judicious placement of a few larger rocks and trees along the river banks would significantly reduce the 'canal' effect, that is if larger trees and rocks are appropriate for the geography.
I am satisfied with the river banks - it's only semi parallel for maybe 70 scale feet - on either side the width varies and the curvature. After a bit of touch up, plan on adding the water surface and then foliage along the banks. It should be easy enough to disguise the even river bank on the side of the tracks with some foliage hanging out over the edges, as Dave noted.
I agree, this is just the base coats. Things look a little stark now, but once vegetation -- and rocks, gravel, etc -- and other stuff is used to dress and detail the edges, the sharp dividing line that seems to exist now will blend into a convincing whole.
Your waterway paint job is looking good and will be loads of fun doing the scenery.
Following Dave Frary's technique my experimentations with Modpodge for water effects were less than expected. Though the resulting gentle undulations were nice the numerous bubbles were not. Maybe my brush skills are lacking or I'm just too picky, but also had the same bubbling issue using the gloss medium.
Good luck and regards, Peter
Peter, here is the link to Rob's blog on his river, which I am more or less following. He used Mod Podge and it looks pretty good to me:
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15662
I've seen some report getting bubbles using other sorts of water materials. Maybe the stabbing motions Rob used made a difference possibly.
No doubt Rob nailed it on his river scene, color, water, soil, talus and backdrop, IMHO a work of art.
Saw Rob's MRH river post before experimenting with water effects. Used a few different sizes and types of brushes with the Modpodge and gloss medium, but try as I may couldn't keep the bubbles from forming and stabbing motions only intenisfied the bubble making. The tiny bubbles clump together on the surface creating speckled areas of dullness when dry. Also attemped wetting the brush with water before application, but didn't help much if at all. Maybe more of an angled pushing motion instead of stabbing would help.
Regardless of the bubble issue the one coat gloss over paint method didn't produce the effect of depth I desired so went with gloss gel medium over plexiglass for my choppy bay.
regards, Peter
How thick did you apply it? That may be part of it; perhaps Rob will comment and we'll find out how he put his on; I'll work on other parts of my layout for a while and see if I can get a little more insite on how to avoid those bubbles.
Not really sure how thick as I pretty much followed Dave Frary's technique of softly plopping the Modpodge on with a mop brush and tried not to agitate the surface too much. To add depth his method calls for several coats of Modpodge, each one applied after the previous one has dried overnight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgWt137zpkQ&list=PLTaFP0QYcboanuYVGMZ1_mLJHYQG7R8Wx&index=2
Regards, Peter
I believe Rob only used one coat. Hopefully at some point he can elaborate a bit since I'd like to avoid the bubbles thing. Whatever he did, it looked quite good.
I tried Modge-Podge and it looked like multiple layer on layer work would be required to achieve the whitewater effects I needed. I use old school stinky casting resin for the body of water itself, which really limits the chance for bubbles forming, as least that's never been an issue it for me.
I found clear cake decorator's silicone was a quick and easy method for my "surface effects." It's food grade, so doesn't have the stench that most silicone does.
You can mix in acrylics to color it as needed, pretty much plain ol' white for white caps. Then you dab it on and shape it, which it does quite agreeably, no special moves necessary. It sticks well to the water surface, but can be peeled up once cured, so do-overs are easy, but really didn't need to do any as it came out well.
Before
After
One doesn't need much patience with it, as it's pretty much WYSIWYG on the first pass.
Some modeled waterways with a painted surface and a one time application of gloss/water effects look quite convincing, but not from all viewing distances and angles. The advantages of a one time gloss/water effects are numerous, less expense, mess, labor and time are clearly understandable, especially for large expanses. Just my humble opinion, but photos aside and under good lighting I've yet to see a one gloss coat waterway that does as good a job at creating the illusion of depth as does poured resin, mulitple gloss coats, glass or plexiglass.
There's something appealing about still water and for some reason it seems more convincing than modeled ripples and waves. Could it be the reflections, or also as has been mentioned before that our minds expect to see movement from ripples and waves? In any case I sometimes wish I'd stayed with calm waters.
Scroll down to picture number 6 "Doing the Wave" here: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15662
Rob reports using gloss Mod Podge and from the photo it sure looks like a single application to me - the photo shows the medium going down on the painted river-bed. Every picture I've seen of Rob's rivers look quite good to me so thats what I plan on doing. He has reported having bubble problems with acrylic gloss medium, but after switching to gloss Mod Podge, not much. Cheers.
riogrande5761Scroll down to picture number 6 "Doing the Wave"
Yep, looks very familiar. I tried about half a dozen coats of M-P like that and it barely raised a ripple compared to what I needed. I'd seen that sort of pic and always assumed the peaks would dry into something significantly like what it looked when wet, but no, it's quite subtle, which is good if you need some close to subtle results.
Obviously, if you don't need whitewater, the silicone is overkill. Still water, or seemingly still water that's actually running deep and fast, doesn't need it. But if you want a rushing stream, then the silicone is a much less labor and time intensive method.
Even small ripples will take multiple coats with M-P. The silicone is non-toxic and IIRC I did mix it in over some of the M-P I initially tried without issue, so if you do need whitewater highlights, no matter how small, it's a very forgiving way of accomplishing that quickly.
Not trying to say the silicone is better than M-P, just to note it's another tool among many that's needed for scenery. They both have their places, and there are also places where they could overlap in use quite effectively. This was one place where I used both.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to address either of your concerns. Maybe Rob can comment at some point. Cheers.
I saw on a video somewhere using a heat gun to remove bubbles from something. It might have been epoxy resin. Not sure if it would work on water products for model railroads or not.
Also, I saw this video the other day and loved the realistic water effects that this guy achieved: http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/wintertips
Woodland Scenics has a bunch more videos on getting realistic water with their water products. Don't know if you've seen them or not, or even if it matters since you said you were going to use Mod Podge.
http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/c/water
mlehmanI tried about half a dozen coats of M-P like that and it barely raised a ripple compared to what I needed. I'd seen that sort of pic and always assumed the peaks would dry into something significantly like what it looked when wet, but no... Even small ripples will take multiple coats with M-P.
I haven't noticed this at all. I typically make one application of Mod Podge and get plenty of definition to the ripple effect.
This is one application of Mod Podge...
...and so is this. If you want taller waves acrylic gel medium can also be used, and it's somewhat more controllable than silicone, especially as it's water soluble.
I'm not sure how to address your experience, Mike. Maybe I get different results because I apply heavier coats?
Rob Spangler
Rob,
Maybe the bottle was old or defective? Or does Mod-Podge have several versions of the product and there's a specific one that works like others say?
I painted the stuff on in multiple layers, figured it might start building up once it got a few coats on. And it did, sorta like the mild ripples in the first pic right above.
Whitewater like in the second? Wasn't going to happen short of maybe 50 coats? That's when I tried the cake decorater's silicone and *SHAZZAM!* instant whitewater. Huge whitewater in fact, enough so you rather have to restrain yourself TBQH or you overdo the effect. It sure made that waterfall easy though.
If the small whitewater in your second pic is one coat, then I'm inclined to think I got some bum stuff. I may try it again in that case, although I still have half a tube of silicone and no real project due that might need it, although I might try it if I ever refresh the Rio de las Animas. I wanted subtle effects there and just didn't think the silicone was low-key enough to control effectively. The M-P definitely seems to be more subtle, the bottle of it I got was just too subtle, but effectively subtle would be another matter.
This also points out how important it is to have different techniques and materials in your scenery arsenal. Although art is a dirty word for some in the hobby, scenery inevitably shades into art, if for no other reason than the materials and techniques are quite similar. Artists can get away with painting variations on a scene over and over, while model railroaders need to be able to convincingly string together a series of related but distinct scenes to be credible, so a variety of tools is a good thing to have, especially if you were bored in art class and fear repeating that experience on your layout.
I agree with you Mike. Here's another product that I've had good results with. WS Water Effects, I dabbed it on my Magic Water after it hardend with a brush. I finished by dry brushing with white paint.
Grampy.......I have taken the liberty of posting another of your pictures that realistically displays water and is a great scene.
Hope you don't mind.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
No problem, Bob.
cnkastingheat gun to remove bubbles
Never tried a heat gun, but one's breath removes the bubbles from epoxy resin, a small handheld propane torch works better with larger pours and no spit gets in the "water", neither works with mod podge or gloss medium.
The W.S. Water Effects made for some nice "water" falling from my drainage culvert and like gloss gel medium didn't bubble, but found it to be stiffer with less working time than gloss gel medium. The polluted drainage canal itself is poured epoxy resin.
Followed the TerranScapes water effects technique with gloss gel medium for my harbor "water".
https-::www.youtube.com:watch?v=vol7P8oHAk4
Your filthy ditch looks disgusting ....perfect!
Grampys,
If you like the looks of my water, I gotta be doing something right. Thanks!
Peter,
Things are looking murky, an effect that seems simple, but takes a bit to get just right.
I finally found the last of my tube of Decorator's Solution Dimensional Silicone, Part # DS3801020M. Here's a pic.
I think the term Dimensional denotes it's special quality versus most silicone. Instead of tending to flatten or run, like the stuff usually does, this stuff tend to stay where you sculpt it. It is food safe, but don't get the uncured stuff in your eyes. It's pretty benign as they go odor-wise, far less stinky than the rivers it decorates were. The tube suggests using food coloring, but I used acrylic paint and it worked great.
I also found my Mod-Podge. Containers seem OK, no signs of freezing, a problem sometimes in the Midwest. Maybe I was expecting more. I was slinging it on thick as I could and for somethings, like the wakes from the bridge pilings under the waterfall, that worked fine. For whitewater, the DS silicone just worked wonders for me.