The point of no obstructions is to allow access. What many don't realize is you should keep the area beside it clear too.
Many electricians will stand to the side when they flip the breakers. That way, when something goes wrong, they are not standing directly in front of it.
Additionally, smart meters cannot cut your power. The utility can add a load limiting unit onto the socket and mount the meter on it, for your delinquent customers, which will allow them to watch TV or cook dinner, but not both. Draw too much current and the power goes out, and you have to go outside to reset it.
BroadwayLion richhotrain And you wonder, Frankie, why you never get any puppies! You need to educate those two a little better. Smile, Wink & Grin I have pictures of my TIGERS doing it correctly. (OOOOO) ROAR
richhotrain And you wonder, Frankie, why you never get any puppies! You need to educate those two a little better. Smile, Wink & Grin
I have pictures of my TIGERS doing it correctly. (OOOOO)
ROAR
You Guy's are both ''SILLY'' LOL.....Neither one of them can have pups....they are brother's. Got them both together 8yrs. ago from a close friend, who breeds German Boxer's........trust Me, they know how to do it! They have been clowning around together since I got them. Boxers are known to be the Clowns of the Pedigree's and live/play as if they were 3yrs. old all the time, also can be very defiant, when they want to be, 80 to 85lbs of solid muscle, but yet are very loving and protective of children.
Take Care!
Frank
richhotrainAnd you wonder, Frankie, why you never get any puppies! You need to educate those two a little better. Smile, Wink & Grin
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
richhotrain Moving the electrical service box is no easy matter. Aside from cost and finding a new location, all of the wiring has already been cut to fit. All of the incoming wiring from throughout the house would have to be lengthened. That could well mean stringing new wiring since most codes frown upon splices inside the service box. Hot wires should feed uninterrupted into the circuit breakers and the neutral wires should feed uninterrupted onto the common bar inside the service box. Rich
Moving the electrical service box is no easy matter. Aside from cost and finding a new location, all of the wiring has already been cut to fit. All of the incoming wiring from throughout the house would have to be lengthened. That could well mean stringing new wiring since most codes frown upon splices inside the service box. Hot wires should feed uninterrupted into the circuit breakers and the neutral wires should feed uninterrupted onto the common bar inside the service box.
Rich
What ya do here, if yer in the mood, is convert the old panel to a junction box. And extend each cable over to the new panel.
Ed
Absolutely simplest solution.
Design to bridge the space across the service box with tangent track(s.)
Lay single tracks in steel studs, rain gutter style. Studs simply sit on abutments with pins for alignment. Rail alignment assured by having rail joiners on each end that can be slid onto rails in studs. I use the equivalent for cassettes - the weight is negligable.
Put the monster through girder bridges in place when you want to operate. As soon as wheels stop rolling, remove and stow the bridges - every time!
I leave designing safety circuits for, "Forgot to put in the bridge," situations as an exercise for the student.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with steel stud cassettes)
Power Transfoprmer of LION:
Train Room of LION is on the top floor directly above the transformer
Vandals knock everything on its side?
Alton Junction
Power Service of LION
Panel to rhe right is where the power comes into the building, the three panels in front of us are transfer switches that connect between our generators, and the MDU high line.
The high line out on the power pole has 3 100A fuses. Once past our transofrmer we have thousands of amps available.
The gnereator in the powerhouse puts out 100kW, our normal loadings are between 20 and 30 kW, with peak loadings on sunday at over 40kW.
LION Agrees, MOVE THE POWER SERVICE!
It's a new house. The panel is prewired for and located near a designated spot for a not yet installed BU generator. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable option to move the panel, cost or location-wise.
Before anyone asks, no I didn't have any input on the design or panel location. I bought an existing empty new house designed for someone else who never occupied it.
Unfortunately, the common practice in this area is to locate the panel on the far outside wall of the garage, even if the house has a full basement, not that I have one. It's not any sort of requirement, just what the electricians do.
Thanks to all who responded.
I have decided to completely avoid the electrical panel area by using helixes, which will give me a decent run and predominately inside curves. The downside will be the 1.5% helix grades on a layout that would otherwise be essentially flat. The upside is a longer run and totally walk-in with no duckunders, lift-outs, or swing gates.
Thanks again everyone.
CG
CG, in your original post you stated that you only intend to have the lift out section in place only when running trains, at all other times it will be removed.
If you adhere to such a policy I would think all would be ok, BUT human nature has a funny way of doing things different especially after years of having no problems.
If fire is inside the panel we have to use a screw driver to remove the front cover to gain access. That is the only way there is to do it.
Like already mentioned, we run into all sorts of issues far worse than a model railroad, our simpathy is very limited in such situations where codes are ignored because the homeowner knows What is best.
Clearly the OP has reservations about blocking the panel as he asked the question if it was ok to do so. Odds are all will be fine, but please don't complain about your local fire dept when it isn't.
7j43k basementdweller For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times. I guess I'm not quite getting it. The panel cover is held on with screws. Are you saying you have a screwdriver and take out the four to six screws to remove the panel cover so that you can extinguish a fire inside? That seems a little fiddly and time consuming, considering there's a fire inside. Ed
basementdweller For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times.
For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times.
I guess I'm not quite getting it. The panel cover is held on with screws. Are you saying you have a screwdriver and take out the four to six screws to remove the panel cover so that you can extinguish a fire inside? That seems a little fiddly and time consuming, considering there's a fire inside.
In my 40+ years in the electrical trade, junk, clothes, boxes, and almost anything you can imagine stacked infront of the panel is much worse than a lift out section of railroad. I have been in homes where the owners have built closets with shelves ( a pantry) in front of the panel.
IF you are comfortable with your lift out section, and make sure it is lifted out when you are not running trains, IMHO it sounds good. But check the local codes.
As an officer I do not condone firefighters causing damage when we can take a few minutes to eliminate unnecessary damage in someone's home. However, firefighter's working in a basement filling with smoke I would not expect to worry about damaging a model railroad that should not be blocking a panel in the first place. Then the removed section has to be placed somewhere, without blocking firefighter egress.
We run into far crazier situations than a model railroad blocking access.
Safety is an attitude, not only towards one's self and family, but towards others too. This is an excellent topic that I hope makes one or two think about their train room.
If there is a removable section of layout that obstructs the removal of the front panel cover but does NOT obstruct access to the breakers, I don't see why firefighters would care.
Do firefighters REALLY want to get inside a live electrical panel? That includes exposed busbars?
Notice the capitalization of the word "not".
Beside being a model railroader and sympathetic to you situation, for a living I am a firefighter of 23 years, I can honestly say that when we enter people's homes and have to deal with minor electrical issues, fires, water problems etc the home owners never expected to have to deal with their current situation.
The reason I say this is because any lift out section will be left in place, understandably, rather than removed after each run session. Then one day an emergency may occur. Now there will be an issue, the least of your concerns will be possible damage to the layout etc. Basements are a nightmare for firefighters.
i think there is a tendency to think the lift out section will allow for a repairman or yourself to access the panel when needed and there is time to remove the section. No one expects the emergency.
If I could make any suggestion it would be to reconsider how you can accomplish your goals for the layout in another way, leaving access to the panel at all times, you can fudge it a bit but avoid blocking the panel.
I want to add a yard to my layout and I have a perfect area to build it, but it blocks my panel and so it remains unbuilt. I am now considering completely rebuilding my layout to accommodate a larger yard without blocking my panel.
Good luck.
zstripe
mlehman doctorwayne The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems). Good point, but we're fully fenced, so not so much an issue. And a good alarm system has battery backup
doctorwayne The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).
Good point, but we're fully fenced, so not so much an issue. And a good alarm system has battery backup
My two German Boxers love ''pranksters''.......that is, when they are not clowning around. LOL
doctorwayneThe outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
doctorwayne I gotta agree with Frank, although I'd take 'er a step further an' simply drywall right over the dang thing. It'd certainly make 'er a lot easier to paint yer backdrop on it. I mean, heck, t'ain't like it's a 'fridge or nuthin', like ya gotta git into it alla time. If that inspector fella shows up, just tell 'im thatcha gone wireless.
I gotta agree with Frank, although I'd take 'er a step further an' simply drywall right over the dang thing. It'd certainly make 'er a lot easier to paint yer backdrop on it. I mean, heck, t'ain't like it's a 'fridge or nuthin', like ya gotta git into it alla time. If that inspector fella shows up, just tell 'im thatcha gone wireless.
Drywall over it. Yeah, that's the ticket. Never thought of that but I will certainly take it under consideration. Wayne, you are the man.
Now, if I can stop laughing, I think it's time to hit the hay.
zstripe.....I would go ahead and build it with a lift-out section for access to panel. I doubt very seriously, that the ''code police'' will be knocking at Your door.
I foresaw a similar problem when I built my house, and opted to put the service panel on the ground floor, along with the water heater....no furnace, either.
The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).Here in Ontario, we have "smart" meters, which allow the service provider to regulate or completely shut off the power at their discretion. In my opinion, if I'm paying for the service, I should be the only one who can pull the plug.
Wayne
CentralGulf richhotrain My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it. Yeah, that is the correct attitude. I've been busy convincing myself I could get around it with a drop down thingy or swing gate, hence the request for suggestions. I am having second thoughts, though. I think I'll play around with the helix option and see what I can come up with. Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input. CG
richhotrain My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it.
My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it.
Yeah, that is the correct attitude. I've been busy convincing myself I could get around it with a drop down thingy or swing gate, hence the request for suggestions. I am having second thoughts, though.
I think I'll play around with the helix option and see what I can come up with. Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input.
This is the common sense and correct advice. The code requirements are there for a reason - to protect you and any first responders. A lesser financial reason is that if the "unthinkable" happened and a fire started, your insurance company could very well deny your claim if there's a willful code violation.
Ray
2014 NEC
230.70(A)(1)
Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
That's the national code. Local cities and counties adopt any part or all of it as they choose. Or make additions. And also conform to state requirements. But it pretty much starts with the NEC.
San Francisco used to make up their electrical code all by themselves. Contra Costa county (CA) used to have an exceptions (to the NEC) sheet to hand out.
Local "authorities" COULD require outside service disconnects if they choose. None come to my mind, but I don't get out much. A phone call and sitting on hold for awhile would likely answer for a particular place.
No external main disconnect here, and this house was just built last year. My old house had dual panel 400 amp service with two outside disconnects. Same state but different utilities. State runs the electrical code, though, so it should be the same everywhere in the state.
Mike,
I upgraded mostly all the wiring in My house and garage 30yrs. ago to a 250 amp. service, for I had an Arc welder and a 60 gal compressor which worked on 240 AC. My central air condensor is on a separate 40amp circuit with Main shut off, right outside. My whole electric service main breakers for service panel can be shut off outside, right next to com-ed's electric meter before any power even enters the house. When there is a power outage....a light in the kitchen and living room, along with a light in the stairwell will light for upstairs, will run on battery power, until service is restored...lasts for two days. That also can be controlled from outside I have no basement...water table is too high. Com-Ed recommended the main breakers outside when they installed heavier gauge wire from the pole to My house. I did most all the work Myself, with help from My Electrician FIL and saved tons of $$$.
In the OP's case, a simple lift-out section, will work....need light? A simple battery stick-on light near the box will work, one near the stairs also.
7j43kIF you have easy and ready access to breaker handles with the "layout section" in place, and IF you can provide a "clear working space" (usually 30 x 36) with the "layout section" removed, I do not see a safety hazard. Ed
I pretty much agree with Ed here, maybe just a little different way of seeing it.
Keep in mind that the newer codes also require an outside main disconnect. This is right after the meter and outside (in most case, maybe not all, I'm NOT an electrical contractor). This better serves the needs of an emergency, IMO and if easy to get to -- perhaps even easier than a panel in the basement or wherever -- and IMO you've satisfied the need for in case of emergency.