Benjamin - About 5 years ago I started my layout in a spare bedroon that is 11-feet by 11-feet. Like you, I built my layout with the intention of getting it out of the room if we moved or I decide to terminate my empire. The finished layout is 8-feet x 8-feet with a donut hole in the middle to access derailed trains, etc. I divided my table into six sections - the largest being 3-feet by 4-feet that are bolted together. These sections are supported by four legs, each with a large plastic wheel made to support a bed frame. The table surface is 40-inches above the floor allowing me ample access to work under it and giving me a bird's-eye view of the trains. Have fun!
My previous layout, built in an apartment, is now sitting in pieces in my basement. I built simple box frames, put in a layer of 1/4" plywood, and topped it with 2" extruded foam insulation. Each 8 foot long section had one pair of legs, the other end was supported by the legs of the previous section. The legs attached with bolts, and as I took it down I removed the legs as pairs, folded in the brace that extended parallel with the benchwork, and slid the leg pairs closed on the diagonal braceto make each pair with attached braces into a sompact piece that was easy to move, and then each 8 foot (a few sections were shorter) piece of layout was small enough (and light enough) to be carried out - which was down 2 flights of stairs. Nothing was attached to the walls or floor, so the room was clean once the layout sections were removed. I'll probably never put it back together, or even use any of the sections as is, but it came down quickly (I was pulling it apart AS the movers took each piece).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Benjamin MaggiSo, my dream layout plan was to use heavy-duty shelf brackets installed in heavy duty shelf standards which would be mounted directly to the walls. Then, I could use the brackets to support the layout, with further shelf brackets below for storage, and brackets above the layout to support lighting valences. But, I was told that the walls in the basement in the house I am buying should probably not have holes drilled in them for this. So, I am wondering what Plan B is.....
In my opinion, starting your "dream layout" in a less than ideal environment is not the best path to choose. I'm not suggesting that you abandon the dream, but the further you go with benchwork of any type, the less the chances are that you will ever go back to make the layout room into a pleasant and useful place in which to work. I'd suggest that you make a couple of sections of open grid (1"x4" or 3/4" plywood cut to similar dimensions, the crossmembers 16"o/c. This will give you some model railroading activity while you accumulate the means to finish the room - studded walls with drywall (insulation if the environment requires it), and proper lighting and electrical services.I'm not a big fan of L-girder construction, but if you want to avoid legs under the layout, you can then lag-bolt 2"x4"s to the walls, horizontally, at the desired layout height, then use engineered joists to support the aisle-side of the layout. These require support only at their outer ends, regardless of length.
I'm not sure why many people seem to dislike legs under their layouts. My layout is open grid, built in sections, mostly 8'-10' in length. It's supported on 2"x4" framing (and some larger lumber, too, all "leftovers" from building my house. These supports are fastened to the studs and the grid sections simply sit atop them, screw-fastened with a few 1"x2" risers. I added shelving, made from more leftover material and covered it in 3/8" sheathing plywood. This is used for storage of train stuff and all the only-occasionally-needed things which most of us accumulate:
On those rare occasions when I need to work under the layout, the shelving, with the junk removed, is a pleasant-enough place to lie, with the underside of the layout within easy reach.
Except for a couple of areas where the layout depth is quite shallow, as in the second photo, the shelving is set well back from the front edge of the layout. For several years, I used large sheets of cardboard to hide the clutter, but eventually added sliding and/or lift-off doors to give the room a more finished appearance:
As you can see in the above photo, I've also added a partial second level to the layout. This is also open grid construction in sections, but only the end members and those on the aisle-side are 1"x4", with the wall-side and intermediate members 1"x2". The top is 5/8" t&g flooring plywood. These sections are screwed to the wall studs, and supported by angle-iron brackets, custom welded and lag-bolted, also to the studs.
The support in the distance is L-shaped, supporting the benchwork as it turns the corner - its upright has the open-face of the angle against the corner, bolted on both sides into the corner studs:
While I'm under 200lbs., I have worked lying atop the deeper sections of the upper level, the only way to see while painting the backside of the rails. The rest of the upper level work is done from a step-stool, leaning on the benchwork as needed.
I had originally intended to use engineered joists for the upper level, but because of the room's unusual shape, it would have required support posts which would have detracted from the views of the lower level. Also, by the time the second level construction began, I would have had to take out an interior wall or two in order to get them into the layout room. The 2"x4" support work for the lower level wasn't free, of course, but it was cheaper than the material normally used for layout construction and its less-stable (than plywood or select pine) characteristics aren't an issue as-used. The shelving under the layout has proven to be very useful, and the Masonite panels covering the stuff there was a very reasonable expense.
Finish the room before you get too far into the layout itself - you won't regret it and it will be easy to remediate if you later decide to move. It will also add to your home's re-sale value.
Wayne
I'm in a somewhat similar situation in that I have a rented space where I'm reluctant to build anything too "permanent" and reluctant to anchor too firmly to the walls. I've used adjustable saw horses as legs for l-girder frames, and that has worked well for me. They also have the advantage of being movable if I have to access a spot underneath the layout, I simply slide them up or down the layout to do what I need to do. Here are some older photos of when I was just setting this up, you might consider this for legs. I think they run about $30 apiece or thereabouts.
btw, that 10' long 'module' in the first photo is pretty long and heavy, but with a second person to help is easily movable. It has survived three moves already and still operates well.
Jim
Benjamin Maggi Thanks everyone. In case I wasn't clear, my primary objective is to build my layout in sections (not modules) that will be easily movable for construction, or if I move later, or should I need to empty portions of the basement for remodeling, etc. My second goal is to build benchwork to support those modules that will minimize legs and also use a minimum amount of lumber. I don't want extensive legs and box structures that may become unnecessary if I refinish the walls and can mount shelf brackets to them. Again, thanks to everyone for your input!
Thanks everyone. In case I wasn't clear, my primary objective is to build my layout in sections (not modules) that will be easily movable for construction, or if I move later, or should I need to empty portions of the basement for remodeling, etc.
My second goal is to build benchwork to support those modules that will minimize legs and also use a minimum amount of lumber. I don't want extensive legs and box structures that may become unnecessary if I refinish the walls and can mount shelf brackets to them.
Again, thanks to everyone for your input!
That was my goal too - sectional benchwork with minimized legs and amount of lumber. I've got decent carpentry skills but I've been able to understand the advantages of L-girder and IMO, it is more complicated to build than a simple 1x4 frame with 1x3 cross members on 16-inch centers; so thats what I went with too. It seems you can still build the same things on open grid as you can L-girder anyway. *shrugs*
I used 2x2 legs with angled bracing. All in all, pretty simple and straight forward. The framing is held together with #8 and #6 dry wall screws (2 1/2-inch long for the frame corners). The legs and sections are bolted together with 1/4 inch carriage bolts.
Between lumber, homasote and hardware, the cost for me to build a 10x18' layout benchwork was just around $350. Since the benchwork was built over some 8-10 months, that cost was spread out and easily managable.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Except for one section of my layout, I constructed in 2x4' modules out of 1x4s, with cross beams spaced 16" on center. The one area where I made a module, topped with plywood was a mistake. I covered the plywood with foam, then had a heckuva time dropping track wiring through. I ended up cutting holes in the plywood with a hole saw and making a "needle" out of a wire hanger. I ground a point on one end and hammered the other end flat with a hammer and anvil. Then, I drilled two holes in flat end and when I needed to pull wire, I threaded it with the wire and push/pulled it through the foam. The only things I use plywood for are the "cookie cutter" sub-roadbeds and legs.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
Doc in CTRandy, that was my point. Dropping a box frame module on an L-girder supporting structure way overkill.
For that use I don;t think it's overkill at all, as Byron ssaid, the OP's goal is to reduce legs, well, with L girders he could have 2 girders running along a 20 foot wall with just 2 sets of legs and minimal joists to keep it stabe - it would benefit to slightly modify the construction and keep the joists underneath and not have the legs protrude above the girder flange, making a long flat surface to set the module boxes on. Unless it's something like T-Track, the modules will have to have legs for public displays, unless this is strictly being made 'modular' for construction purposes (like sitting comfortably at a workbench for building). Eiher way, using a pair of L girders as a 'table' to support them is a pretty decent way to go. You can't just bolt together a bunch of box frames and stick legs out near the end pieces, that won't be very sturdy at all. For a solid one piece layout - yes, you can make it using grid construction and it wouldn't need legs every 4 feet to be stable.
Doc in CTFrom a practical standpoint, is there much of a load/sag difference between a 1x4 L-girder and a 1/2 to 3/4 inch plywood top with 1x4s forming a box frame?
I believe that one of the Original Poster's goals was to minimize legs. If the sections are small enough to be easily moved/re-used, there could be fewer legs with a pair of long L-girders supporting multiple sections than with each smaller section having its own sets of legs.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
A box frame WITH the top installed? I'd sya no, just as strong as an L girder, because you have a similar sort of supporting structure, the vertical members of the box fram and the horizontal supplied by the plywood top. But the point of L girder is long spans WITHOUT the whole thing solidly covered with plywood. L-girder for a solid tabletop railroad is IMO a complete waste of effort, a simple box frame is plenty sturdy. But if you want an open design with just a subroadbed where the track goes, and want to span long distances with as few legs as possible, a girder type structure would be the better option, compared to just a long piece of 1x4.
From a practical standpoint, is there much of a load/sag difference between a 1x4 L-girder and a 1/2 to 3/4 inch plywood top with 1x4s forming a box frame?Other comment, if you plan on moving the modules/sections, by the time you build one that won't rack or twist, all you really need are legs to support it (with L-girder the legs are at 1/5 and 4/5 locations).
The newer plastic-topped banquet tables are a bit wobbly and this might create issues. The classic (heavy) style made from pressed wood and metal were much more solid. I think those were used for the Koester G layout.
Banquet tables are also low compared to the way most people build benchwork, so people usually have to figure out some sort of leg extensions (which can add to the wobble).
Banquet tables will also make at least portions of the underside of the sections inaccessible.
I would suggest 2 different methods.
Build an L girder and then instead of putting a table top, just support the modules with risers or set the modules on short legs sitting on the L Girders. You don't need to support the modules, they should be self supporting, all you need to support is the ends of the modules where they join. So really other than the joints, you don't need anything under them. Saves lumber, cost, time and improves access to the underside of the layout.
Or...
Build a false wall out of 2x4's attaching it to the floor joists in the ceiling and the floor. Then use the shelf brakets off that wall. Upside, way more useable floor space, downside, room is about 8 inches smaller in length and width. Other upside is you can add insulation if your basement walls are un- or under insulated.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Redore Layouts have also been built on top of folding banquet tables placed end to end. Mostly open underneath for a free standing shelf. If they are too low the legs can be extended with wood dowels. With this you wouldn't need the L girders.
As a temporary solution, I like this. I wouldn't get the 2' wide ones as they might not be stable enough but otherwise this is a great idea and I wish I had thought of it. I remember Tony Koester used them for his G-scale layout in MR about 10 years ago.
Pelle Soberg did an articleon this exact thing in MR (March 2016). Only difference is that he attached it to the wall.
One option for the legs is to build a C or E section out of steel angle or square tube. The bottom leg rests on the floor and the top supports the layout. The middle of the E can support an intermediate shelf. Very doable if you can weld or know someone who can. Steel because there's a lot of what we engineers call moment at the joints. This would give you an open front free standing support without knee braces.
You could also wedge 2 x 4's between the floor and ceiling without permanently fastening them. Then a horizontal support with knee braces to support the L girders.
Layouts have also been built on top of folding banquet tables placed end to end. Mostly open underneath for a free standing shelf. If they arev too low the legs can be extended with wood dowels. With this you wouldn't need the L girders.
If you want, I believe some home centers sell just the folding legs so you can make your own top narrower or wider than the standard table.
I would put some kind of support under the L girders every 4 feet or so.
Benjamin MaggiI could build really long L-girder benchwork sections and then cover the tops with plywood, and then build my sectional layout and have it supported (and not actually attached) to the L-girder sections.
This has been done and works fine. You don't even need a plywood plate on top the L-girders, the sections can rest right on them. (You will need to tie the L-girders together with joists every so often.) I'd also secure the sections to the L-girders in a few spots so that they can't shift when bumped or if the house "jumps" (which can happen here in California).
I think that MR's Jim Kelly built at least one of his layouts this way.
I wouldnot make modules from L girders, too tall and too heavy. However, you can do very long spans between legs (see the table posted above) with L girders, and use that as a 'tabletop" to set the modules on, making the modules out of more conventional and leightweight construction.
Though ideal, it isn't possible to rehab the basement at this time. Because the layout is sectional, I can always move it to another area if I need to empty the basement for a remodel.
Thank you all for your input.
sschnablYou could build walls out of 2 x 4 studs and anchor them to the ceiling and floor. That's what I did in my basement.
If you go this route, you could also insulate, and add electrical outlets, making the basement more comfortable. Possibly also increasing future resale value.
Dave
You could build walls out of 2 x 4 studs and anchor them to the ceiling and floor. That's what I did in my basement. I then hung drywall and started building my layout. My current layout has all 2 x 2 legs supporting it, but for my next layout I am thinking of cantileavering the portion around the walls and just use the 2 x 2 legs for the peninsulas. Those 2 x 4 walls should support the weight of the benchwork.
Scott
Here are the maximums (in inches) from the original L-girder article:
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Benjamin,
I have a rather longish ~12' long pair of L-girders that support one town. I used 1x4 for this, which should be adequate. I don't think whatever you build would be heavy enough that this could become an issue in my experience.
BTW, what are the basement walls made of you were advised not to drill into? Presuming you don't drill all the way through, which there is no reason to do, I'm skeptical this would be an issue with most fastening systems.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
So, my dream layout plan was to use heavy-duty shelf brackets installed in heavy duty shelf standards which would be mounted directly to the walls. Then, I could use the brackets to support the layout, with further shelf brackets below for storage, and brackets above the layout to support lighting valences.
But, I was told that the walls in the basement in the house I am buying should probably not have holes drilled in them for this. So, I am wondering what Plan B is.
My layout will be built in sections that are designed to be movable (in case I move again or want to take them outside for work/photos, etc.) and I want to avoid having each section have support legs. I was thinking perhaps I could build really long L-girder benchwork sections and then cover the tops with plywood, and then build my sectional layout and have it supported (and not actually attached) to the L-girder sections.
Anyone done this before? What are the practical lengths that I can make the L-girders? I want to avoid as many legs as possible, and plan to have the layout mounted high (around 48" for the rail height). Also, since I cannot mount to the walls, how can I secure the corners to one another?
Another way might be to build a square out of "I-beams" (see: lhttp://www.housatonicrr.com/ibeam2003.html) and then support them with legs at the corners and in the middle for long runs. I will need a duckunder to get inside but it might work.
Are there other ways to support sectional layouts so that each unit can easily be removed without disturbing the others, or requuring legs for each?
Thanks.