I've reread and edited my big post on the wiring of my reversing loops and circuit breaker protection for the layout. I think my language was really messy. I've tried to say it better for posterity. A lot has happened in the last week and I think it has taken more of a toll on me than I thought. Building the layout is now therapeutic.
I did my very first, very minor DCC programming - assigning a long address for my diesel. The more I understand DCC the angrier I become at MTH and myself for not looking before I jumped into this.
Dont be angry just look at it as a lesson learned, in the future look before you jump ( easier said than done sometimes).
Brendan,
don´t be angry at yourself! It just adds misery to your life when you should be enjoying it! After all, your are gaining in experience , going through the ups and downs in the life of a model railroader. It takes some folks years to go through what you are doing in a couple of months!
Hey Dan - you are right. I knew nothing about this and went to see 2 dealers. I asked them a lot of questions and I thought I was being diligent. I never heard of DCS or DCC. Ultimately they each gave me information that I now realize had a lot to do with what they were selling as opposed to what was out there.
The thing is I know how to research most anything and am usually very good about it. I had no idea I needed to do this with trains. I made an assumption that things were pretty much the same as they were 60 years ago. That was not only wrong, it was dumb. I had a cell phone with me when I went to the dealers. I had gps navigation in my car. I had a car that started without a key.
Aside from all that I have been designing computer networks for over 2 decades. It's okay if I kick myself in the butt a bit, it will serve as a reminder for next time.
Thanks Ulrich. You are right and I just responded to Dan about this.
I have another question - I was going to use portals for the tunnel that are meant for a single track. I tested them with my little train and they are fine. Would they be equally fine with a train of passenger cars that are each 11.5 inches in length? I plan on testing this before buying anything, but any thoughts are welcome.
Brendan Buschi I have another question - I was going to use portals for the tunnel that are meant for a single track. I tested them with my little train and they are fine. Would they be equally fine with a train of passenger cars that are each 11.5 inches in length? I plan on testing this before buying anything, but any thoughts are welcome.
Thanks Mel, the tunnel portals are just before a curve and just after a curve. I'm thinking the smart thing to do is get whatever trains I plan to use and then work on the tunnel. I can always custom make the portals.
The cars I am looking at all have a minimum 22 inch turning radius. The smallest curve I have on the layout has a 22 inch turning radius. The other curves have a 24 inch turning radius.
Hey Mel, that's useful info. You also touched on something else. I have been looking at a Cab Forwards steam locomotive. What were they used for?
I like their looks. I was thinking of using a steam locomotive for a passenger train. I was thinking of getting Southern Pacific passenger cars. Is that something that would have been pulling passenger cars?
Thanks Mel - wow!
RR_Mel The SP had the Cab Forward designed and built for heavy freight service through the many tunnels and snow sheds across the Donor Pass and the Tehachapi Loop and to my knowledge they were never used in passenger service. The SP used GS (4-8-4) & Mt (4-8-2) series steam locomotives for early passenger service and PA ALCo & E series EMD locomotives after steam was retired.
The SP used cab forwards on several of the passenger trains in and out of Los Angeles. Larry Mullay and Bruce Petty's book "The Southern Pacific in Los Angeles" shows cab forwards on the Owl, Tehachapi, and the West Coast Limited. Several of my SP videos also show them in passenger service.
Ray
Hi Brendan:
Brendan BuschiI have been looking at a Cab Forwards steam locomotive. What were they used for?
You may know this already, but the cab forward configuration was designed to keep the crew from having to breathe all the smoke and steam while they were in the long tunnels. Apparently things could get pretty nasty if you were in the usual 'cab at the back' style of locomotives. A cab forward locomotive would be a good match for your layout given the long tunnel.
Brendan - be warned, you sound like you are going to get really hooked by this hobby!!! That's a good thing!
Regards
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey Mel, thanks for posting this picture and for the info on the cars. The picture shows people in the passenger car. I'm guessing you put them there because the one thing I find lacking in all the passenger cars I see is the absence of people. How do you go about that? Is kit bashing taking a part from one car and adding it to another? I have been looking at the 72' cars because of the radius of my curves. How bad is the overhang on the 22" radius curve with the 72' cars?
Hey Ray this is good news. I really like the look of the Cab Forward engines. Thanks.
I hope you don't mind my adding my worth to the question that you directed at Mel, and I hope he doesn't mind either.
Brendan Buschithe one thing I find lacking in all the passenger cars I see is the absence of people. How do you go about that?
First question is - does your passenger car actually have an interior? Most modern cars do, but be aware if you are looking at buying older cars. Doing an interior is a PITA so I suggest you just avoid the cars without interiors.
There are tons of 'sitting passenger' figures available on eBay, mostly from China. I don't suggest spending the money on highly detailed figures for car interiors because the details simply won't show.
The problem with HO scale is that there isn't always enough space to fit the full sitting figure in the seats. Often you need to do some surgery (to put it politely) but it really doesn't matter if the figures still have legs since the legs can't be seen anyway.
You can also get 1:100 scale figures which are easier to fit. The smaller size usually isn't an issue when they are positioned inside a passenger car but they don't look all that good on a platform.
Some passenger cars are a bit of a challenge to open up, but they all can be opened. If you can't figure out how to do it, just ask.
Hey Dave, I had read a blurb on a manufacturer's website, but I didn't put it together with the tunnel. Of course it makes sense. I think my steam locomotive will end up being a cab forward. Thanks.
I am already hooked. I am committed to making a solid layout. Beyond that I am committed to the kids. I'm allowing myself to be a kid too. The trains are really beautiful. My daughter gave me some sad news and now it's more important than ever for me to be able to be there for my grandchildren. We are picking them up again this week. When they were here last time I didn't even have a functioning locomotive. This week we've got a diesel, a 5 car train and a new DCC setup with automatic reversing loops and the skeleton of a tunnel.
I love building things. I love learning. Working on the layout is great. It has everything - electrical, mechanical and environmental. It is also a true art.
If the kids get hooked, I will be very happy and supportive. Me - I would want to build more layouts. I'm not sure if there is much opportunity out there for an old man going around building layouts. An image of Paladin just popped into my head. I could see myself with a card saying, "Have Model RR Will Travel". I can't see many people calling me up.
I build custom computers and do networks and installations and repairs, but even that is dropping off. I guess I'm dropping off too. I was weed whacking yesterday and it took its toll.
I always look forward to this forum. This is a good place.
Thanks again Dave. The cars I am looking at have interiors - peopleless interiors.
On Thursday I pick up the kids and the train store I go to is about a mile from where they are. I'm waiting on the refund for the locomotives, but I'm getting a store credit on the DCS Commander. I was thinking of using that credit down the road to get the passenger cars and it only makes sense to do that at that store if I get MTH passenger cars.
I am not interested in another fiasco. I've read some posts on the MTH passenger cars and they have all been good - even people who have no use for DCS and MTH say nice things about the passenger cars. The 3 MTH cars on my 5 car train all work without a problem and roll very smoothly on the rails.
Before I get any passenger cars I will consult here. From the responses so far I'm looking to get a Broadway Limited steam engine. After the recent posts here, I have me eye on the 4525 SP Cab Forward 4-8-8-2, AC5 #4119, Gray boiler, "SOUTHERN PACIFIC LINES", w/ Paragon3 Sound/DC/DCC, HO.
What are you doing to put a quote from another post you are responding to in your posts?
I am always happy to hear from anybody on anything.
Brendan BuschiWhat are you doing to put a quote from another post you are responding to in your posts?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Gidday Brendan, just highlight what you want to quote and left click on the Add Quote to your Post box which should be just above the Post Body.
Thanks Cheers - let's see if this works.
Brendan Buschi Hey Mel, thanks for posting this picture and for the info on the cars. The picture shows people in the passenger car. I'm guessing you put them there because the one thing I find lacking in all the passenger cars I see is the absence of people. How do you go about that? Is kit bashing taking a part from one car and adding it to another? I have been looking at the 72' cars because of the radius of my curves. How bad is the overhang on the 22" radius curve with the 72' cars?
Thanks for the info Mel. Your work is incredible. Beautiful job.
I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens.
I have also experienced something I cannot understand and would love to hear you r thoughts on it. On one of my reversing loops when I come out of it in one of the 2 possible directions I can come out of it in, the train stalls for a moment before proceeding. I have no clue. I don't think its a short. I have tested the track voltage all around the insulators and it is constant. It happens when the train is coming out of the loop with the turnout in its normal position. I think it happens when the train encounters the frog. It does not happen on my other reversing loop.
I also need to attach the sun shades to my locomotive. I have made the holes in the locomotive where they attach bigger and the sun shades go in smoothly. I need to apply some kind of adhesive. Any suggestions on that?
Brendan Buschi On one of my reversing loops when I come out of it in one of the 2 possible directions I can come out of it in, the train stalls for a moment before proceeding. I have no clue. I don't think its a short.
On one of my reversing loops when I come out of it in one of the 2 possible directions I can come out of it in, the train stalls for a moment before proceeding. I have no clue. I don't think its a short.
Rich
Alton Junction
Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens.
richhotrainIt probably is a short, either as a result of your wiring or, more likely, one of the settings on your auto-reverser. When a loco stalls, then starts up again, coming out of a reverse loop, there typically is a conflict between the booster and the auto-reverser, so the booster shuts down the system. As soon as the system is reset, the loco starts up again.
There are 2 ways into the loop and 2 ways out. It does not short going in either way and it only shorts goind out one of the 2 possible ways. There are no settings on the auto-reverser. The leds on the auto-reverser indicate correct polarity in all cases. This only happens when it reaches the frog which is after the polarity has been reversed. The frog is insulated. Does this make sense?
richhotrain Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens. At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing. Rich
At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing.
The MTH passenger cars have gotten excellent reviews on this blog from people who have no use whatsoever for MTH. I was getting a refund and a credit. If I used the credit for anything else I would be losing money. I cannot get a better price anywhere on an MTH product than I can from my dealer. That is not the case with other manufacturer's products.
Brendan Buschi richhotrain Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens. At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing. Rich The MTH passenger cars have gotten excellent reviews on this blog from people who have no use whatsoever for MTH. I was getting a refund and a credit. If I used the credit for anything else I would be losing money. I cannot get a better price anywhere on an MTH product than I can from my dealer. That is not the case with other manufacturer's products.
As for MTH, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No need to reply to this post if you have made up your mind to go with MTH pasenger cars.
Brendan Buschi richhotrain It probably is a short, either as a result of your wiring or, more likely, one of the settings on your auto-reverser. When a loco stalls, then starts up again, coming out of a reverse loop, there typically is a conflict between the booster and the auto-reverser, so the booster shuts down the system. As soon as the system is reset, the loco starts up again. There are 2 ways into the loop and 2 ways out. It does not short going in either way and it only shorts goind out one of the 2 possible ways. There are no settings on the auto-reverser. The leds on the auto-reverser indicate correct polarity in all cases. This only happens when it reaches the frog which is after the polarity has been reversed. The frog is insulated. Does this make sense?
richhotrain It probably is a short, either as a result of your wiring or, more likely, one of the settings on your auto-reverser. When a loco stalls, then starts up again, coming out of a reverse loop, there typically is a conflict between the booster and the auto-reverser, so the booster shuts down the system. As soon as the system is reset, the loco starts up again.
The reason that the discussion can be complicated is that the problem may be caused by wiring, gap placement, the installation of the AR unit itself, the interaction of the AR unit with the primary DCC booster, or the loco causing the problem (assuming that other locos do not cause the problem). Sometimes, an OP does not provide adequate information about the problem. Other times, an OP fails to adequately observe and report the problem. Still other times, it just takes a lot of give and take between the OP and those replying to get to the heart of the problem.
One thing that I will mention at the outset is that you might well be better off staring a new thread concerning this problem on the Electronics and DCC forum. This thread has grown long and unwieldly, taking all kinds of twists and turns, so the electronics experts may not be made aware of this issue. But, I will leave that decision up to you.
Back to your problem. If I recall correctly, you said that this problem only occurs on one of your reverse loops. Hmm, maybe it is the turnout. Then again, maybe not. Could be the wiring or the gaps or the PSX-ARSC that controls the reverse loop. You could swap one or the other or both to narrow down the search for a solution.
If you do have a PSX-ARSC as I think you do, then there are settings on that auto-reverser unit, lots of them. It may or may not be that the settings need to be tinkered with to resolve the problem.
Also, it is worth noting that on a classic reverse loop, as on your layout, once polarity is flipped, the auto-reverser performs the opposite task the next time that the same route is chosen. So, sometimes it is flipping polarities, while at other times, polarities match upon entry and then flip upon exit. You need to observe this behavior to determine when the problem occurs and when it doesn't.
Hope this helps.