Freelancing MCRR/NYC Northern Division - Angelo
My previous layout had a lower staging yard. All I can say is the longer it takes to get to the staging the less grade you will need. It will take quite a bit to clear the main level on the down slope. I hid my decline behind an embankment which parrelled the mainline going into an incline. My decline was 2% and designed in xtrackcad which meant that when the program said make the roadbed such and such anmount down from main level then it was an accurate measurement for a 2 % grade.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
LION said it before, but will say it again.
Your yard is HERE, you want it to go THERE. So do it, whoo cares how steep it is. What matters is does your train go up the grade? Even a 2% grade will be tough if there are curves in it. Tight curves add to the effort required.
Now you put in a grade, and if it works you are ok. If it does not work, then rip it out and build something else. LION has pulled out many grades that did not make the grade.
Another way to conquer the grade is to put better motors in your locomotives, make your locomotives heavier, and make your cars roll more freely.
OK, you are planning something. LION plans as him builts, why that is him makes so many corrections. Plan for nothing greater that 2%. Maybe 1.5% if there are tight curves. The math wizards will tell you how long that will take to go up so many inches.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
My recommended grade is zero.
How many staging tracks are you planning to have? Is there any way you can rearrange your track plan to have them at the same level as the rest of the layout? Consider putting them behind a view-block or building a removeable scenic cover.
You will end up with derailments on your "below deck" tracks which will be very difficult to deal with. When you are bringing a train up from staging, sometimes it won't make the grade and you won't be able to reach it easily to give it a gentle push. You'll hear a derailed truck chattering across the ties but you won't be able to see it to know which one it is.
It's worth giving up a bit of real estate to avoid these problems.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
starman I am building my first large layout. I want to run track to and from a staging area under my layout. I expect the difference between tracks on my main layout to the staging area to be somewhere between 3" and 4". What is a recommended grade for such a track? I am modeling part of the Norfolk & Western railroad that runs from the mountains to the end of the line at the Lamberts Point Yard. My engine could be pulling a long line of coal cars. Thanks in advance!
I like your general idea because staging gets to be very handy, especially on smaller layouts. Yours is a large one, by your own description, but staging keeps clutter of layouts in general.
As at least one other person has stated, you need quite a bit more than a mere three or four inches of overhead clearance in staging. You need more of it on helices, and under overhead bridges, and through tunnel portals, although that depends on the height of the rolling stock. Generally, where you have to reach to reorganize, or to rectify a fault, you need room for your wrist, your forearm, and any snagging sleave cuffs. The deeper you have to reach, the more likely the real offender will end up being your elbow. You really need enough room for an easy reach, but also for you to look above and see to what it is you need to reach. So, lighting is also important, and 3"-4" just doesn't cut it...by quite a long shot.
Your trains will be entire units most often. Yes, you'll break them up and rearrange them, but only on the surface, almost never in staging. So your locomotives will have to do the job of getting parked trains from staging up to the surface where they will operate. Whatever they can do on that surface they'll be able to manage under it. If any one train can get up 3.5%, then that's what it'll need, and no more, in its access to staging.
The idea is to lay consistent grades with no steep sections and no tight curves. So, if you can construct a grade that is consistent down to staging, it will be the same on the way up. Do trials on the heaviest coal drag and the longest passenger consist with the typical assigned head-end power. What they can do on the way up out of staging is the maximum. My bet is it'll be near what the prototype uses as a standard, and that is near 2.2%. It looks like I will need about 2.4% on my new build, but I can live with that.
There is an old saying in the Canadian Armed Forces: time spent on recce is seldom wasted. Similarly, time spent proving grades and curves is seldom wasted. Don't screw anything in permanently until you can prove your locomotives' ability to handle your trains on the grades you need to get the track layout you desire.
Nickel Plate RoadHey Starman - I too have had the same idea, coming off my curve to a yard below. My layout is 28 feet "U" and under construction, if I did my math correctly I will need 13-14 feet to drop 8" from my upper level to lower level I'm still screwing around with scale feet etc but, building a helix takes up too much room. I decided to use 4'x 1' pine to drop down. Only I will have a curve at the end (imagine a flat hockey stick). I run H.O scale and have a few large steam loco's. I have made some test runs with rigged up track. I built a jig so will be able to duplicate the correct angle on the working layout. I took advice from many books and fellow railroaders and took my time, research, research and more research. Good luck brother I hope this helps
Fellows:
To calculate percent grade: It is rise in inches divided by run in inches, with this result multiplied by 100.
A eight inch drop, at two percent, needs 400 inches. 400 inchs is 33 feet 4 inchs.
As onewolf say 168 run and a 8 inch drop is very steep.
Dave
Other questions to consider are the length of cars and whether you plan on having a mix of different tonnage cars in one consist. There are likely other factors but the folks above touched the big ones.
My layout only has a 1/2" elevation which is a suitable transition. I read that the problems of having too steep a grade to cause derailments, etc. and makes the layout appear like a roller coaster.
Nickel Plate Road Hey Starman - I too have had the same idea, coming off my curve to a yard below. My layout is 28 feet "U" and under construction, if I did my math correctly I will need 13-14 feet to drop 8" from my upper level to lower level I'm still screwing around with scale feet etc but, building a helix takes up too much room. I decided to use 4'x 1' pine to drop down. Only I will have a curve at the end (imagine a flat hockey stick). I run H.O scale and have a few large steam loco's. I have made some test runs with rigged up track. I built a jig so will be able to duplicate the correct angle on the working layout. I took advice from many books and fellow railroaders and took my time, research, research and more research. Good luck brother I hope this helps.
Hey Starman - I too have had the same idea, coming off my curve to a yard below. My layout is 28 feet "U" and under construction, if I did my math correctly I will need 13-14 feet to drop 8" from my upper level to lower level I'm still screwing around with scale feet etc but, building a helix takes up too much room. I decided to use 4'x 1' pine to drop down. Only I will have a curve at the end (imagine a flat hockey stick). I run H.O scale and have a few large steam loco's. I have made some test runs with rigged up track. I built a jig so will be able to duplicate the correct angle on the working layout. I took advice from many books and fellow railroaders and took my time, research, research and more research. Good luck brother I hope this helps.
8" drop in 14 ft is 4.7% grade. I'm not sure that's close to feasible for any sort of 'normal' operation.
My layout uses a 1.4% grade to drop from the 42" elevation lower level to the return loop/staging tracks at 37" and 1.3% climb to the 'city' at 45" elevation above the return loop/staging tracks.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
If I was building a staging yard below a section of layout, I would make GREAT EFFORTS to have a very thin underlayment beneath the upper tracks. For obvious reasons, I think. For example, maybe I could make it out of only 3/4 ply with supports at the edges. Maybe.
Yup, great efforts.
Ed
davidmurrayMeasure your equipment to be sure in fits, unless you are going N-scale.
Even if you are working in N-scale, your 1:1 scale hand and arm ideally should be able to reach the back track of the staging yard. Remember also that the deeper you reach under the layout the more space you will need to reach in (arm diameter is not constant).
Starman:
I agree with the slope suggestions. Reason for greater vertical difference between levels is the depth of support struck for upper level. !/2" plywood on 1"x3" adds up to 3 inches. No cork in staging, but track thickness leaves less than three inches between top of rail and botton of support above if you use 6 inches total drop. Measure your equipment to be sure in fits, unless you are going N-scale.
Adding to what Carl said:
For a 1% grade to go up 8" (which sounds like a great choice), it will take a run of 800 inches. Which is 67 feet. That's real feet, not HO feet. That kind of makes a helix look very attractive.
If ya go to a 2% grade (which probably looks more appealing, now), that'll be 400 inches. Or 33 running feet.
If you go from an 8" rise to a 6" (probably doable, if you take care), those numbers go to 50 feet and 25 feet, respectively.
I suggest that 2% is the steepest grade you should have on a mainline--1% is almost pleasant--1.5% might make a good compromise, and that 6" spacing between levels is pretty much a real minimum.
Without a little more detail, it will be difficult to answer your question.
What do you consider a "long" train?
What scale are you modeling in?
What type of locomotives? Manufacturer and vintage can make a big difference.
What is the weight of your cars?
How do you feel about helpers on this grade? Some find them interesting, some don't.
Most folks will tell you that you are generally better off with grades of less than 2%. For really long trains, 1% is probably a better idea.
You probably want more than 4" vertical clearance over a staging yard. Think about reaching over one train to rerail a car on a track to the rear. Aim for 8" as a minimum.
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