MalcyMalcNow I'm not going to be buying a new DCC controller for every four feet of layout, and the rolling stock can be amortised across the whole layout but this isn't cheap to get into compared to some other modelling hobbies.
This is true, but getting into a moving model hobbie is also expensive. I'm talking about a radio controlled Lorry, airplane or boat/ship.
Plus very few trains sink or fly uncontrolably away, and the hobby is not weather dependent.
Just my thoughts from Canada.
Dave
BATMAN BRAKIE As a example. If our roster is 100% diesel do we really need a space eating roundhouse with turntable when a two stall engine house would work? The CPR roundhouse in Vancouver serviced Diesels for a long time after the last steamer left town. So there is presidence.
BRAKIE As a example. If our roster is 100% diesel do we really need a space eating roundhouse with turntable when a two stall engine house would work?
The CPR roundhouse in Vancouver serviced Diesels for a long time after the last steamer left town. So there is presidence.
Brent,Many railroads use roundhouses into the 90s but,in our limited space HO world could we use that space for a better designed diesel service area? If our layout is large enough for such niceties then why not indulge?
All I am saying is a modeler should use their limited space wisely.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I think part of the reason model railways are seen as an expensive hobby is that the entrance level spend can be quite high. I'm coming back into the hobby after a 30 year absence and am planning a small switching layout. One DCC engine (2nd hand), four points and 12 feet of track - $200. The DCC controller pretty much the same again. I've picked up some 2nd hand wagon kits at around $14 apiece but still have to add in the cost of Kadee couplers (not that common in the UK) and some bogies.
End result - one 2x4 module on bare wood. Scenery still be costed.
Now I'm not going to be buying a new DCC controller for every four feet of layout, and the rolling stock can be amortised across the whole layout but this isn't cheap to get into compared to some other modelling hobbies.
BRAKIEAs a example. If our roster is 100% diesel do we really need a space eating roundhouse with turntable when a two stall engine house would work?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
To allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't have on ''MY'' layout, kinda takes the fun out of it.If I have but one engine,a RS3 and want 5 , 10 stall roundhouses; who has the right to tell me I shouldn,t
Had I knowen there were such strick rules, I would not have enter the hobby
rrebell Another thing that bugs me is people are always comparing model railroads to real. We try to imitate the real but what works in the read dose not work in our modeling space, espesialy when it comes to yards.
Another thing that bugs me is people are always comparing model railroads to real. We try to imitate the real but what works in the read dose not work in our modeling space, espesialy when it comes to yards.
That doesn't bug me at all - it's normal and I'm totally used to it. Model Railroading is continuum of imitating trains, which stretches from Thomas the Tank Engine all the way to proto modeling. It goes without saying that we all have our limitations, whether it be space, skills, time, money, knowledget, or that have you.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
We should look to the prototype for guide lines when designing a yard,engine service area or industrial area and then size it down to our available space and preferences.
As a example. If our roster is 100% diesel do we really need a space eating roundhouse with turntable when a two stall engine house would work?
For me its:
1. Layout "experts" that complicate the simple while overstating the obvious.
2. Derailments can't be avoided -not even..A modeler's goal should be 100% derailment free operation.
3. You can't make a crossover with #4 switches..Guess again. It can be done. A crossover can be made with snap switches-not pretty but,can be done and just be sure to use 40' cars and short wheelbase engines.
tomikawaTT One monster myth is that benchwork has to be built like the floor of an upstairs bedroom. It has to be stiff - but that can be achieved without the use of massive timbers or 3/4 inch plywood. Our little trains weigh ounces, not tons, and the scenery they run through only weighs a few pounds per square foot. Of course, if you want to climb up and jump around on your benchwork... As for cost, it has always been possible to economize: Build benchwork with inexpensive or free materials (as in, dumpster dive.) Hand-lay specialwork - without $$$ jigs and tools. Buy rolling stock at train shows. Learn to kitbash and scratch build. Assemble structures from plans and photos, using craft store materials. Look at those fancy gizmos, then figure out how to build the equivalent with paper clips, used ball pen cartridges and fishing line. Hold off buying the latest and greatest until it gets put on the markdown and closeout table. I haven't always done these things, but I sure do now! As for the 4x8 with 15 inch radii and 3% grades, the Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo isn't a 4x8, but it does have 350mm (14 inch minus) radii and 4% grades - designed to be a challenge for teakettle 0-6-0Ts. Last, a quote from The Green Dragon: I have never done the impossible. If I did it, it was possible. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)
One monster myth is that benchwork has to be built like the floor of an upstairs bedroom. It has to be stiff - but that can be achieved without the use of massive timbers or 3/4 inch plywood. Our little trains weigh ounces, not tons, and the scenery they run through only weighs a few pounds per square foot. Of course, if you want to climb up and jump around on your benchwork...
As for cost, it has always been possible to economize:
I haven't always done these things, but I sure do now!
As for the 4x8 with 15 inch radii and 3% grades, the Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo isn't a 4x8, but it does have 350mm (14 inch minus) radii and 4% grades - designed to be a challenge for teakettle 0-6-0Ts.
Last, a quote from The Green Dragon:
I have never done the impossible. If I did it, it was possible.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)
Chuck,
You're right on. Scrounging, waiting for deals, paperclips etc. is the smart way to build. The only things I bought for my bench work were the steel studs. All the foam was at no cost. Even toured the neighborhood and liberated some from a burn pile (we live in the country). Saved some toxic fumes from getting into the air and helped with my layout. Good trade.
Have been building a lot of stuff with all kinds of household stuff. My wife always asks "Can you use this on the railroad?". Of course I take it and sooner or later it finds its way on to the layout in some fashion.
Lots of items show up on the local on-line auctions. Bought a group of cars lately that came to about $4.00 each. They all had KD couplers on them too. Got my $ worth in just the couplers alone. Got new, stll sealed Atlas NS switches for $2.00 each. Flex track for about $1.50 a 3 foot section. Yes MRRing can be expensive unless you go by what you said.
I'm having fun!! Must be doing it right.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
I follow good wiring practices and I have lots of feeders. I've got a decent-sized home layout, around 3 walls of a 24x24 foot room.
But, I'm somewhat of a heretic because my bus wires are only 18-gauge. This seems perfectly adequate and my trains run fine all the way out to the ends, from Timbuktu to Kalamazoo, to Kalamazoo and back.
12-gauge bus wires are overkill for most home layouts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
rrebell People pay, what they are willing to pay. People are always complaining about the cost of food, but I have found most food stuffs are the same price as 20 years ago, the main exception being beef, especialy hamburger. As for train stuff the MSRP has gone up but the street price hasn't changed much on a lot of things and those that have, have a much more detailed product. My most expencive freight are those Tangent three dome tank cars, but I sold 3 MDC per car so it is a wash as I had them to kitbash a three dome.
People pay, what they are willing to pay. People are always complaining about the cost of food, but I have found most food stuffs are the same price as 20 years ago, the main exception being beef, especialy hamburger. As for train stuff the MSRP has gone up but the street price hasn't changed much on a lot of things and those that have, have a much more detailed product. My most expencive freight are those Tangent three dome tank cars, but I sold 3 MDC per car so it is a wash as I had them to kitbash a three dome.
Yes, very true. Heck, I still pay $1.09 for a bean burrito at Taco Bell and they've been around that price for the past 20 years. No complaints there! Cereal, Milk, still pretty much the same. Gas is all over the map so not really a good thing to look at. I'm not complaining about train prices and am willing to pay them - but for the more detailed stuff like Tangent, ER, Genesis, Moloco, I just can't afford very many but they are nice.
In some ways the hobby has gone up faster than income, so it's not completely a myth. OTOH, there are lots of inexpensive stuff out on the secondary market for those on a tight budget.
selector riogrande5761 It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years It doesn't follow that the toys, themselves, are the only spending factors that have changed for you in that time. It is more likely your spending priorities have changed, and/or that those items are more costly, now discarded and replaced by something else entirely (that cost much more than the items discarded), or you are in a relatively new financial circumstance that has impacted your discretionary spending. As others have pointed out innumberable times over the time I have been participating in this forum, and quite convincingly, the hobby costs are roughly the same when adjusted, and with some variance. For example, BLI's locomotives are quite a bit more expensive than they were just five years ago. I suspect they had to do it to cover costs of all kinds, including inflation and wage demands in the countries where their stock is/was produced. There was litigation with Mike, and they had a bad run or three while they were finding a new supplier which cost them a bundle in repairs and replacements.
riogrande5761 It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years
It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years
It doesn't follow that the toys, themselves, are the only spending factors that have changed for you in that time. It is more likely your spending priorities have changed, and/or that those items are more costly, now discarded and replaced by something else entirely (that cost much more than the items discarded), or you are in a relatively new financial circumstance that has impacted your discretionary spending. As others have pointed out innumberable times over the time I have been participating in this forum, and quite convincingly, the hobby costs are roughly the same when adjusted, and with some variance. For example, BLI's locomotives are quite a bit more expensive than they were just five years ago. I suspect they had to do it to cover costs of all kinds, including inflation and wage demands in the countries where their stock is/was produced. There was litigation with Mike, and they had a bad run or three while they were finding a new supplier which cost them a bundle in repairs and replacements.
Yes, I've read those discussions on what money bought years back vs. now. It's also clear to observers that some things have remained at similar prices where others have gone up much faster. The average HQ freight cars are now tracking between $35 and 45 ea. Hey, I'm not complaining, and I like the value what I get. I just take issue with the statement that "the biggest myth of all is that the hobby has become much more expensive than it used to be." Sure, I've been one of the first to challenge people who think that the hobby used to be cheap - and point to 3 dollar Athearn box cars etc. But I'm playing "the devils advocate" here and saying it's not that simple.
Oh, and I've been buying mostly Genesis, Intermountain and Atlas rolling stock for the last 12 years so my buying habits haven't changed significantly other than I've added a few Tangent pieces to my collection in the past couple years. My spending priorities haven't changed, and my income has been up and down and up and down over those 12 years within the same ball park.
Let me give an example of a cost increase far and above pay increase. Athearn used to produce RTR 2-packs of 10 trailers for MSRP about $22 to $26 - sure, increasing over time. The recent runs are now selling MRSP for a single. Thats a two fold increase. Walthers P2K tend to be quiet expensive too. Some of Bachmanns prices on new freight cars are nearly the same as Tangent, and yet they are Bachmann - sure, Tangent are top shelve so you expect them to be more, but Bachmann? SMH. Ok, they have more mark up. Steam engines are getting very expensive too, good thing I'm not into steam - many now in the $400-600 MSRP range.
Anyway, I do think there is merit that the hobby prices are increasing much faster than other products on the market - that certainly hasn't escaped me, and why I had to comment about jcorbets post. That said, I am not complaining - I usually challenge those who whine about prices just so you know. I just thought I'd throw a little spoke in the gears about that myth.
riogrande5761 ... It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years. ...
It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years.
...
riogrande5761 rrebell IRONROOSTER That's really the issue. How much money do you have left after taxes, bills, food, etc. to spend on leisure pursuits. And that has been declining. Paul Funny, mine has been going up but then I have discovered the magic of munis. What is this magic?
rrebell IRONROOSTER That's really the issue. How much money do you have left after taxes, bills, food, etc. to spend on leisure pursuits. And that has been declining. Paul Funny, mine has been going up but then I have discovered the magic of munis.
IRONROOSTER That's really the issue. How much money do you have left after taxes, bills, food, etc. to spend on leisure pursuits. And that has been declining. Paul
That's really the issue. How much money do you have left after taxes, bills, food, etc. to spend on leisure pursuits. And that has been declining.
Paul
Funny, mine has been going up but then I have discovered the magic of munis.
What is this magic?
BigDaddy Refering to the digital achives disproves your point, doesn't it? A hobby is about what you want. A magazine subscription was good enough; it was all there was. Now besides your magazine subscription you want access to archives and premium videos via the internet on your smart phone which didn't exist back then either. When we were kids, we had a World Book Encyclopedia and a bicycle. Now kids have a monutain bike, a cellphone, a computer, a subscription to netflix and $150 tennis shoes. Relative to inflation, I'll bet the price of bikes went down, but it still costs more to "equip" a kid. Broadway Lion is a notable exception like using nails for contacts. He is not the only one, but if most real enthusiasts were doing it his way, DCC couldn't survive. Most of us want what we see other people have, locos that make noise, auto reversing circuits. The standard of living, if you will, for the hobby has evolved and improved. You do get more today, i agree, but it costs. If you look at the world standard of living, where more people are going to have cell phones than have electricity, it has evolved too, but I don't think improved would be the first word that would come to mind.
Refering to the digital achives disproves your point, doesn't it? A hobby is about what you want. A magazine subscription was good enough; it was all there was. Now besides your magazine subscription you want access to archives and premium videos via the internet on your smart phone which didn't exist back then either.
When we were kids, we had a World Book Encyclopedia and a bicycle. Now kids have a monutain bike, a cellphone, a computer, a subscription to netflix and $150 tennis shoes. Relative to inflation, I'll bet the price of bikes went down, but it still costs more to "equip" a kid.
Broadway Lion is a notable exception like using nails for contacts. He is not the only one, but if most real enthusiasts were doing it his way, DCC couldn't survive. Most of us want what we see other people have, locos that make noise, auto reversing circuits. The standard of living, if you will, for the hobby has evolved and improved. You do get more today, i agree, but it costs.
If you look at the world standard of living, where more people are going to have cell phones than have electricity, it has evolved too, but I don't think improved would be the first word that would come to mind.
I don't have to pay pay extra for the All Access Pass. I choose to. I could just as well choose to go with just the print edition and I would be getting what I always used to. Nothing says you have to have the latest and greatest products. Those are choices we make. If you want to build a layout with the types of products that were used a generation ago, it will cost you pretty much what it cost you back then if you adjust for inflation. Many of the same structure kits are available. Non-sound DC locomotives are still available. We no longer have Athearn blue box kits but Accurail has filled that void. Now if you want to upgrade to sound equipped DCC locos with all the bells and whistles, take advantage of timesavers like RTR rolling stock and pre-built structures, yes you are going to pay more for those and you should. But there is nothing that says you can't build a layout the old fashioned way and if you do your dollar will go just as far as it used to.
kasskaboose John, Well said good friend! You are right about the importance of not scimping with tools. There really aren't many you need specifically for model trains except rail nipper, plastic nipper, coupler gauge and track gauge. Of course there are a few others, but you don't need a ton of new tools to enjoy the hobby. Many other hobbies have their dedicated tools also which is fine. I appreciate the kind words!
John,
Well said good friend! You are right about the importance of not scimping with tools. There really aren't many you need specifically for model trains except rail nipper, plastic nipper, coupler gauge and track gauge. Of course there are a few others, but you don't need a ton of new tools to enjoy the hobby. Many other hobbies have their dedicated tools also which is fine.
I appreciate the kind words!
IRONROOSTER riogrande5761 jecorbett I think the biggest myth of all is that the hobby has become much more expensive than it used to be. The fact is ... It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years. That said, there is a ton of inexpensive stuff on the secondary Market and the value you get for the newer stuff is quite good. That's really the issue. How much money do you have left after taxes, bills, food, etc. to spend on leisure pursuits. And that has been declining. Paul
riogrande5761 jecorbett I think the biggest myth of all is that the hobby has become much more expensive than it used to be. The fact is ... It isn't a myth that the cost of new train products has been outstripping my take home pay by a large margin over the past 15 years. That said, there is a ton of inexpensive stuff on the secondary Market and the value you get for the newer stuff is quite good.
jecorbett I think the biggest myth of all is that the hobby has become much more expensive than it used to be. The fact is ...
I think the biggest myth of all is that the hobby has become much more expensive than it used to be. The fact is ...
That said, there is a ton of inexpensive stuff on the secondary Market and the value you get for the newer stuff is quite good.
Seems to me that many of the guys on this forum have the "Homer Simpson Syndrome". You know, "Quick, say something before they think you are stupid".
Charlie
One myth I hear is dcc is simpler to wire than dc.
After runnng larger gage buss wire, and running feeders to the track every 3 feet no it is not. Good wiring is needed no matter if you are running dc or dcc. I am dcc and love it.
You all forgot the biggest myth of all:
"THE HOBBY IS DYING!!!"
Hi UNCLEBUTCH
I did build a shed before scratch building 15m x 7.6m But I don't think that's what you meant.
I have to say the shed / out house, wash house is a good intro to scratch building
Most layouts would need them in the residential area and railroads use a lot of small structures that could be lumped in to the general shed type structures area.
Never used pink or blue foam I just use packing foam and cut it outside, because it smells unpleasant hot wire cutting foam of any description.
The use of good quality wood I class as a must, It's the must buy bit I think is the myth here
I think most of us have scrounged for some stuff for the layout at some time.
Toxic fumes true.
I would have said the bigger problem was the house burning down and the fumes from the building and building matierials treatments.
Or more to the point does the house insurance cover this.
regards John
Kasskaboose
That one really is a myth OK my bench work does get a bit on the expencive side of things
But that is because I choose to use 75 x 75 x 3 aluminium in place of the massive timber L girder and use ally gussetes and leg plates
I do go for the slightly more expencive wood, not the most expencive just the slightly more expencive and I do tend to over engineer it a bit Note my choice.
I am no master builder, engineer or anything else for that matter you don't need to be, half the time High school wood work is over qualified for model railroad bench work
All you need to be able to do measure and cut acurately
Screw and glue joints are about the most complicated joints needed if you are getting fancy thats cross drilling a bit of wood shoving a dowel in so when joining on end grain the screw goes into the side of dowel for a secure fix.
And have the abilety to think through a problem all things the average Joe is usually capable of doing.
You did not cheat you had a problem thought it through and found a solution that gave the solid bench you needed job done.
As for tools I got all mine bar one from Bunnings this time looking for the best I could afford, not sure what the US equivilent would be it's a big hardware warehouse type store.
Even the odd one which came from a specialty tool store was not that expencive
I don't scimp with tools buy good ones look after them and you won't need new ones till the kids get hold of them when their old enough.
Hi, John,
Another quote from The Green Dragon:
Impossible is defined as, 'I haven't done that yet.'
(Who's The Green Dragon? Her Valor, the Honorable Senior Command Admiral Yumiko T, Carlsen, Order of Merit. As of 3626, she's the Congressmember representing the planet Sierra. Any resemblance to the lady I married 54+ years ago is purely deliberate.)
Chuck (Sometimes science fiction author modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Hi tomikawa TT
you seem to forget the imposible is done daily miricales take about a week.